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Krotchstak



Joined: 05 Feb 2010
Posts: 45

PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:05 pm Reply with quote
Well, if you want the absolute best thing that the franchise has ever put out...in my mind, that's Gundam 0080: War in the Pocket. It's short, to the point, does what it sets out to do extremely well, is standalone in the sense that it requires next to no background knowledge (I show this to people all the time). 6 episodes, all of them quality stuff. ANN's Buried Treasure has an excellent review of it.

But yeah, I guess it is hard to recommend a jumping-on point for the franchise. Gundam utilizes many different directing styles, and is fandoms within a fandom. It's an ambitious undertaking, to be sure.
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GWOtaku



Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 618

PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:24 pm Reply with quote
Charred Knight wrote:


Do you honestly believe that everyone on the planet Earth would agree to that?


The show doesn't ask me to believe that (or to consider it necessary). I do not.

By the way, the AEU was revealed to be breaking an arms treaty in that first episode.
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Charred Knight



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 3023

PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:34 pm Reply with quote
GWOtaku wrote:
Charred Knight wrote:


Do you honestly believe that everyone on the planet Earth would agree to that?


The show doesn't ask me to believe that. I do not.

By the way, the AEU was revealed to be breaking an arms treaty in that first episode.

Which is why I don't understand what Mizushima and Kuroda where trying to attempt. Celestial Being just seems to make things worse for the world.

Here's the thing, if a country breaks some treaty, it's not for some rogue organization to decide how that country should be punished. That's just going to lead to disaster.
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DangerMouse



Joined: 25 Mar 2009
Posts: 1619

PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:35 pm Reply with quote
Charred Knight wrote:

Did Aeolia's plan involve the force spoiler[evolution of mankind into innovators]? Do you honestly believe that everyone on the planet Earth would agree to that? In fact here's a link to some new information. http://z11.invisionfree.com/​gundam00/​index.​php?​showtopic=​1114&​st=​0

I mean the first episode is basically Celestial Being attacking Europe, because their holding a weapons test. Europe didn't do anything wrong, the people weren't oppressed. Celestial Being simply didn't agree with them so they attacked them. I don't think that's how the world should work.

The series does nothing to suggest that the government can be trusted not to abuse their powers.


GWOtaku already answered the question best.

No, in the first episode CB attacked them because Veda knew they were breaking their international arms treaties with the other world powers. The attack both showed off the power of their suits compared to the latest-and-greatest from one of the strongest world powers to show that they could do what they claimed in the video broadcast later in the ep and more importantly purposefully drew out military forces that the AEU had hidden in the Oribital Elevator (Lockon's positioned there before Setsuna even commenced the attack on the prototype), which was completely illegal as per their treaty with the other major world powers, both of these goals were even specifically deduced by Graham in the episode itself.

Actually that's wrong too, all of the governments (aside from the heavily manipulated one under the A-Laws) tried to act for the benefit of their nation like actual countries, and when the new one comes into power after CB has cleaned up Ribbon's corruption they go silent again leaving things to the new government, they have no trouble hoping for a trustworthy government and the general gist is that like now all governments tend to be in a shade of gray.
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Charred Knight



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 3023

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:01 am Reply with quote
My point is that Celestial Being really doesn't seem to grasp how to actually reach their goals. The result is what happens in the second season and the new information about what takes place after the movie. They come off as idealist who don't seem to understand how the world works. Your right people are always going to act for their own benefit. People are going to fight for their beliefs. Celestial Being can't change that.
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jr0904



Joined: 24 Dec 2005
Posts: 1995
Location: New York City,New York,USA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:36 am Reply with quote
erinfinnegan wrote:


Saturn wrote:
I'll agree on the names, but then, names that are so awesome they're distracting are a trademark of Gundam, aren't they? xD

When I went to look up the names of the 00 characters I realized that basically all Gundam characters have awesome names and I'd never noticed before. (Or maybe 00 kicks it up a notch.)


Of course they did. Thats why this one had interest during it's run.Though outdoing seed will be a challenge.

errinfinnegan wrote:
I'm not a Gundam expert or fan, but you could call me “Gundam Curious”. I'm open to Gundam.


Well if that is so then you should try Unicorn or probably Victory Gundam or F91. If they don't hook you nothing will
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GWOtaku



Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 618

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:36 am Reply with quote
Charred Knight wrote:

Which is why I don't understand what Mizushima and Kuroda where trying to attempt.


By the end of 00's animated canon--the events of the movie--things have changed and improved a lot. That doesn't amount to a claim or a promise that there would not be any more problems after that point. That doesn't make the events there or in countless other works of fiction irrelevant though. That's as far as I'll take the discussion here for my part.
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Otaking09



Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 614

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:45 am Reply with quote
Quote:
Well if that is so then you should try Unicorn or probably Victory Gundam or F91. If they don't hook you nothing will


I hope so!

After hearing penguintruth's constant praise of Zeta Gundam, I finally finished it today.
The Verdict: It had uneven pacing, but it managed to reignite my curiosity of re-watching 1st Gundam again(something that, while not a bad exp. wasn't exactly a bast...).
I also loved Kamille's growth, Char's difference in character, and the decision to, instead pile on events, just let current ones meld together(similar to how Honey and Clover's story didn't really "progress" it just... marinated in itself).
Overall: A "Very Good" rating here.

Of course, I'm watching Char's Counterattack right now... and, uh... I'm quite disappointed...

I do hope F-91 will be, at least, good fun! And, if Victory is the mecha ver. of Grave of the Fireflies, then I look forward to that too!
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Charred Knight



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 3023

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:04 am Reply with quote
GWOtaku wrote:
Charred Knight wrote:

Which is why I don't understand what Mizushima and Kuroda where trying to attempt.


By the end of 00's animated canon--the events of the movie--things have changed and improved a lot. That doesn't amount to a claim or a promise that there would not be any more problems after that point. That doesn't make the events there or in countless other works of fiction irrelevant though. That's as far as I'll take the discussion here for my part.


I just don't see what your seeing, I think the spoiler[innovation of mankind will cause a war much like the Bloody Valentine Wars that caused massive amount of lives lost.] I think Mizushima and Kuroda see's the world in a limited way that doesn't take into account the different beliefs of the people.

I honestly see Gundam 00 as giving people an unrealistic view of the world, where the problem's we face are easily fixable.
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enurtsol



Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 10467

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:00 am Reply with quote
Big Hed wrote:

Erin wrote:
Celestial Being's plan is to stop war forever... by making more war? That's the plan?

Well, one uses antivenom to counteract snakebites--yes yes, Reductio ad Absurdum, I know. Wink


Now you understand America! Laughing
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azhanei



Joined: 21 Aug 2010
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:14 am Reply with quote
Just wrapped up Tytania. I liked it because it did talk as much, if not more, than it fought. But I agree its biggest weakness is that it ends like the creators were hoping to be greenlit for another season or two, loose ends dangling in the solar breeze.

Gundam is like Dragon Ball Z. You either get it or you don't and nary the twain shall meet. Though the idea of getting people to ban together to face a common foe is pretty archetypal. I got to watch the whole series on SyFy. If you're looking to pass the time, rent it. If you've been looking for something in the Gundamverse to fill your soul's void since Wing, buy it.
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Big Hed



Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 1607
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:28 am Reply with quote
Charred Knight wrote:
I honestly see Gundam 00 as giving people an unrealistic view of the world, where the problem's we face are easily fixable.


As Fronzel said on page 2, Gundam series can't get away from the fact that they are action shows even as they try to admonish violence.

I wouldn't call the actions of Celestial Being easy fixes... but they were certainly oversimplified ones. It's a natural consequence of a narrative that is too constrained by its thematic imperative--a fact made no clearer than by spoiler[GN-0000 turning into a freakin' field of rainbow flowers at the end of the movie.]

Still, I maintain what I said earlier: I think 00 would've gone a lot further towards fulfilling its ambitions if it had been stretched out to 75-100 episodes. I think much of the series' problem lies in the fact that it basically tries to fast-forward through quasi-World War III (or IV or V...), global unification, and first contact much too quickly, nothing more.

More to the point, I think it would've been awesome if Sunrise had started animating the 00 timeline at a much earlier point--say in the early 22nd century, before the introduction of any GN-class mobile suits--and letting it build from there. Of course what I'm suggesting would've constituted a seriously long-term project, and maybe it wouldn't have been possible to maintain creative integrity over that amount of time... anyway, I love 00 all the same.

enurtsol wrote:
Big Hed wrote:

Erin wrote:
Celestial Being's plan is to stop war forever... by making more war? That's the plan?

Well, one uses antivenom to counteract snakebites--yes yes, Reductio ad Absurdum, I know. Wink


Now you understand America! Laughing


Hah! Indeed Laughing... Indeed. Anime cry
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 2707
Location: San Diego, CA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:35 am Reply with quote
vashfanatic wrote:
Okay, so you're answer of which series to watch first is... watch these three?? See, I don't think Gundam fans really understand just how confusing your franchise is. Shocked

So far as I can tell, most of the titles outside of Seed & Seed Destiny are stand alone titles & can be watched in whichever order one chooses or completely ignored as one chooses. At one time there was a divide (maybe still exists) amongst the fans of the more hardcore science titles & the bishonen-heavy titles seen as fans (males) as pandering to draw in a female audience.
I tried an ep or 2 of this or that, but Wing was the first one I actually managed to make it thru & enjoy.
And by enjoy by no means equals I found it coherent. Pretty much every Gundam I've seen (I have Wing, 00, Seed, Stardust, The Char movie, 1/2 of G-Gundam, F-91, 08th & SD Gundam Force) has variations of ridiculous logic-like I said, hippie mentality-overly simplistic views of war. They all possessed characters in varying degrees that I wished would meet horrible ends. (Not that I wanted all the characters to die-each possessed various numbers with 00 easily winning the "Just die now, [insert name such as Nena Trinity]").
It's really a turkey shoot.
The point of Gundam anime IS to sell Gundam toys. Expecting more out of them than any of our American cartoons designed to sell toys is really asking too much.
erinfinnegan wrote:

CCSYueh wrote:
That's why you should be listening to the Japanese side. Guess who Ribbons VA also voiced? (And I don't mean Tuxedo Mask, Seiya, or Yamcha)

I always do check out the Japanese side for comparison. But I'm not a huge fan of VA's like you are.

I didn't realize it was Furuya (Amuro) until one of the commentaries referred to the actor specifically since he is credited under an alias. He's not one of the actors I specifically follow, but I recognise his place in the scheme of things such as his specifically being cast as Ribbons in this title because he was Amuro (or so the commentary suggested).
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 2707
Location: San Diego, CA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:57 am Reply with quote
vashfanatic wrote:
Okay, so you're answer of which series to watch first is... watch these three?? See, I don't think Gundam fans really understand just how confusing your franchise is. Shocked

So far as I can tell, most of the titles outside of Seed & Seed Destiny are stand alone titles & can be watched in whichever order one chooses or completely ignored as one chooses. At one time there was a divide (maybe still exists) amongst the fans of the more hardcore science titles & the bishonen-heavy titles seen as fans (males) as pandering to draw in a female audience.
I tried an ep or 2 of this or that, but Wing was the first one I actually managed to make it thru & enjoy.
And by enjoy by no means equals I found it coherent. Pretty much every Gundam I've seen (I have Wing, 00, Seed, Stardust, The Char movie, 1/2 of G-Gundam, F-91, 08th & SD Gundam Force) has variations of ridiculous logic-like I said, hippie mentality-overly simplistic views of war. They all possessed characters in varying degrees that I wished would meet horrible ends. (Not that I wanted all the characters to die-each possessed various numbers with 00 easily winning the "Just die now, [insert name such as Nena Trinity]").
It's really a turkey shoot.
The point of Gundam anime IS to sell Gundam toys. Expecting more out of them than any of our American cartoons designed to sell toys is really asking too much.
erinfinnegan wrote:

CCSYueh wrote:
That's why you should be listening to the Japanese side. Guess who Ribbons VA also voiced? (And I don't mean Tuxedo Mask, Seiya, or Yamcha)

I always do check out the Japanese side for comparison. But I'm not a huge fan of VA's like you are.

I didn't realize it was Furuya (Amuro) until one of the commentaries referred to the actor specifically since he is credited under an alias. He's not one of the actors I specifically follow, but I recognise his place in the scheme of things such as his specifically being cast as Ribbons in this title because he was Amuro (or so the commentary suggested).
wandering-dreamer wrote:
Sounds more like Code Geass than FMA:B but I see where you're going there.

Somewhere isn't there a plot thread that Mustang wants to be Fuhrer to be punished/sacrificed for the Ishbal thing? That the point of his getting the top seat is to put the leaders-including himself-on trial for war crimes? I just can't remember if it was manga or anime any longer since I'm reading the manga, have the first series & movie & am watching Brotherhood on AS
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Charred Knight



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 3023

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:00 am Reply with quote
Big Hed wrote:
Charred Knight wrote:
I honestly see Gundam 00 as giving people an unrealistic view of the world, where the problem's we face are easily fixable.


As Fronzel said on page 2, Gundam series can't get away from the fact that they are action shows even as they try to admonish violence.

I wouldn't call the actions of Celestial Being easy fixes... but they were certainly oversimplified ones. It's a natural consequence of a narrative that is too constrained by its thematic imperative--a fact made no clearer than by spoiler[GN-0000 turning into a freakin' field of rainbow flowers at the end of the movie.]



You're right I should have used the word over-simplified instead of easy fix. I do think it's the job of the Director and Writer to make sure the message is clear, and done in a concise manner.

CCSYueh wrote:

Somewhere isn't there a plot thread that Mustang wants to be Fuhrer to be punished/sacrificed for the Ishbal thing? That the point of his getting the top seat is to put the leaders-including himself-on trial for war crimes? I just can't remember if it was manga or anime any longer since I'm reading the manga, have the first series & movie & am watching Brotherhood on AS


A lot of people confuse what was said, Riza stated that when Amestris is turned into a democracy, the soldiers who fought in Ishval might be convicted of war crimes. It's a danger that Mustang ignores simply because he wants to see Amestris become a democracy so badly. At no point in time does Mustang ever want anyone to consider him a bad guy.
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