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NEWS: Canadian Arrested for Importing Loli-porn Manga


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tempest
ANN Editor in Chief


Joined: 29 Dec 2001
Posts: 7106
Location: Montreal
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:39 pm Reply with quote
[quote="Godaistudios"]Here are a couple of points and possibly some big questions that should weigh on our minds.

First, even if most people do something, it doesn't mean it's moral and okay to do, it just means you will have more objectors if you try to take it away.[quote]

I agree wholeheartedly, but the general definition of wrong that is used do formulate the outlines of laws is something along the lines of "Is someone directly harmed (physically/financially/emotionally) by the action?"

Quote:
It's possible to become so passionate to defend one's right to consume something that we become blind to the problems and dangers that come with what the person wants to consume.


I agree here as well. Interestingly, while I've come to believe in a perverts right to virtual child porn, I'm vehemently for restriction on hate literature, as well as for the restriction of access to weapons.

But, in restrospect, I can immediately see why I stand on one side of the fence on one issue, and the other for the other two.

I believe that the purpose of virtual child porn is to provide "masturbatory material." It isn't created for the purpose of incitement.

Hate literature tends to be all about incitement.

And weapons are tools created for the purpose of brining harm to other people.

Quote:
In all fairness, it deserves to be considered whether or not porn does cause problems or carries dangers.


Again I agree. Even if the "general" purpose of something is harmless, if it is shown to routinely cause harm to people in ways that was not intended, then I do agree that it should be very closely looked at, regulated and perhaps banned.

Quote:
There are numerous studies out there that do in fact suggest that problems and dangers exist as a result of porn. Let's avoid false logic and false comparisons and focus on the issue at hand. If there is no causation from the porn, then that's one thing. But I submit to you the idea that there are some pedophiles who became sexually attracted to children only after being exposed to kiddy porn, but prior to that, had never considered the idea. (I can't submit documented proof or studies, but I can speak from personal experience from some people I know who will state this was the cause, and not merely a by-product.)


The simple question, with a not-so-simple answer, is how often? What percentage of people exposed to child porn go down the wrong route and abuse a child?

Another simple question, but even more difficult answer is, at what point does the protection of the few outweigh the rights of the many? Is it worth banning virtual child porn to protect 1 child? Some would argue that the innocence of one child is worth any ammount of regulation. Or do we need evidense suggesting that 100, 1000 or 10,000 children would be spared in return for the restrictions on freedom of consumption.

Obviously I don't know the answer (hell, I don't know what my opinion is).

Quote:
It's a rehtorical question, but I felt it's worth pondering.
I wrote the above before reading the last paragraph you wrote. You essentially ask the same questions as I do, but with different words.

Yes indeed, its very worth pondering... and very depressing to ponder.

It's also worth noting that these are the same questions that must be considered when looking into banning violent entertainment (games & movies).

-t
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cyrax777



Joined: 05 Mar 2003
Posts: 1823
Location: Have you hugged your loli today?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:48 pm Reply with quote
bigbigtruck wrote:
You know, I don't think I've ever seen so many people posting in defense of child porn and pedophelia. Does anyone else find this frightening?
no whats frigehing is the bigbrother thought crime police crawling out the woodwork. but but its for the children wont someone please thing of the children.

im sorry but until he has real kiddy porn he didn't do jack shit wrong in my eyes.
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Bisuketto



Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 49
Location: Middle America
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:51 pm Reply with quote
bigbigtruck wrote:
You know, I don't think I've ever seen so many people posting in defense of child porn and pedophelia. Does anyone else find this frightening?
quote]

I don't know why I'd consider being frightened over talk about fictional depictions.
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bigbigtruck



Joined: 21 Oct 2004
Posts: 12
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:25 pm Reply with quote
I guess I just find it unsettling because I don't see the difference between someone who jerks it to a naked Card Captor Sakura and someone who jerks it to nude photos of children the same age. The PRODUCTION of said materials is different - one involves only pen on paper; the other involves actual abuse - but no matter which the consumer chooses, manga or photos, it doesn't change the fact that he/she is hot for kids.

Censorship is a slippery slope (god I hate that phrase), and I'm glad (and I'm sure everyone here is, too) that I'm not the one in charge of any related legislation.
I have no children and don't plan on it. I don't really care about children more than humanity as a whole. I don't care what two or more consenting adults do in private. But my stomach turns just knowing that there are people in the world who find child rape - imagined or real - appealing. That there are people who get turned on at the thought of (or the act of) victimising the very ones who should trust adults to protect them, not harm them. That there are those who derive stimulation from a child's inability to fight back or comprehend what is happening.

For that reason, I find it hard to feel any sympathy for the fellow who got arrested. If this were about the censorship of manga featuring adults, then maybe I could get worked up Confused

Last edited by bigbigtruck on Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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MephistoSan



Joined: 20 Aug 2002
Posts: 9
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:27 pm Reply with quote
Isaaru wrote:
ferrarimanf355 wrote:
Regarding the "anime has been given a black eye" quip:
Kinda reminds me of the MSM's news articles on video games. 99 percent of the time, they will mention Grand Theft Auto at one point, screw up a description of GTA's gameplay and leave you with the thought that all video games are violent and depraved in morals. :evil:


yeah also reminds me of the Pokemon burnings
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news1099/pokemon.html

you gotta read thier description of the Pokemon cartoon..its so hilarious. Black eye indeed!


You do know that Landover Baptist is a fake satirical website, right?
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Ohoni



Joined: 10 Jun 2003
Posts: 2768
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:31 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
I guess I just find it unsettling because I don't see the difference between someone who jerks it to a naked Card Captor Sakura and someone who jerks it to nude photos of children the same age.


I would find that pretty unsettling myself. For me to not be able to sepparate fantasy from reality, I think I'd have to institutionalize myself if that were the case.
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bigbigtruck



Joined: 21 Oct 2004
Posts: 12
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:35 pm Reply with quote
Ohoni wrote:
Quote:
I guess I just find it unsettling because I don't see the difference between someone who jerks it to a naked Card Captor Sakura and someone who jerks it to nude photos of children the same age.


I would find that pretty unsettling myself. For me to not be able to sepparate fantasy from reality, I think I'd have to institutionalize myself if that were the case.


Hurrrrr. Rolling Eyes

Obviously, I meant that, cartoon or photo, a person would be getting off on images of the prepubescent form.
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Mancer



Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 3
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:03 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Before you all start argueing about a man's rights to look at porn, think about how utterly terrifying it is for a young girl to read all of this.


Although I might me a minority member in this thread, I AM a young girl (16), and I have been subject to sexual harassment by sick perverts on more then one occasion, but I happen to agree with most of the guys defending porn in this thread.

Guys have urges, plain and simple, I'm not afraid of that fact. At the same time, some people cross the line, which results in rape, harassment and molestation. Everyone's aware of that. But that doesn't mean everyone who views porn (or in this case, lolicon) should be subject to prosecution just because some sicko used it to fuel an act of violence. That doesn't mean it deserves to be banned either.

Just another example of false comparisons that have been mentioned on this board 100x before, I've played the Nintendo game duck hunter, where you shoot a pixelated duck in a simulated shooting game. I love playing that game. Yet I am against hunting for sport. IT'S NOT REALITY, NOBODY IS BEING HARMED. I AM COMPLETELY AWARE OF THE FACT IT IS NOT REAL. Does that mean people who play this game should have Pamela Anderson come down on them with there violence-against-animals speel? Just because some people can't tell the difference of what's exceptable in real life and what's exceptable in fantasy doesn't mean that anything that could possibly provoke violence behavior should be banned because of a big 'what if...'.
Quote:

I'm going to assume you're a girl here. It;s very different for a girl. If a girl wants sex, she can get sex, no problem, 100% concentual, and in less time than it'd take to order a pizza, depending on how choosy she is. For a guy, it's not always an available option, sometimes even within a stable relationship it's not always an option, so porn is just a more available option.


Anime hyper;; I don't agree with that at all, all though I don't completely disregard it as untrue. Yes, if a girl were to go into a club and ask around a few times, eventually someone will have sex with her. But if a guy were to walk into a club and start asking around, eventually someone will agree. Do I have anything to base this on? No, and maybe this doesn't happen as often as I think, but some girls will just randomly have sex for nothing.

Mcwebmistress, I must admit the world would be a far better place if cases like yours didn't happen. But just as a spectator with no real knowledge to what happened, it really sounds like an easy scapegoat. Porn didn't make that guy commit those actions, possibly gave him the idea and encouraged it, but unless porn brainwashed him some how, it didn't make him do anything. It clicked somewhere in the back of his head that doing that was okay, and he willingly did it. You shouldn't hold porn responsible because someone is easily influenced. He should learn to take responsibility for his own actions, and you should learn to blame the individual, not possible causes.

Although whoever goes off to jack off to lolicon obviously has some sort of attraction to kids (no matter how wroing it may be), lolicon is a better alternative to child porn. Said person could realize the attraction is wrong, and wouldn't dare touch child porn because of the fact someoen is being abused, so uses lolicon for relief. I don't support it, but I'd rather have it around then child porn. But then again, that's just how I feel.
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Ohoni



Joined: 10 Jun 2003
Posts: 2768
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:44 am Reply with quote
Quote:

Anime hyper;; I don't agree with that at all, all though I don't completely disregard it as untrue. Yes, if a girl were to go into a club and ask around a few times, eventually someone will have sex with her. But if a guy were to walk into a club and start asking around, eventually someone will agree. Do I have anything to base this on? No, and maybe this doesn't happen as often as I think, but some girls will just randomly have sex for nothing.


Wow, where do you live? No specifics, just the general area, since wherever that is, it sounds a lot more fun than Maryland. Wink
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Haiseikoh 1973



Joined: 24 Apr 2004
Posts: 1590
Location: Waiting for the Japanese 1000 Gunieas.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 2:03 am Reply with quote
bigbigtruck wrote:
You know, I don't think I've ever seen so many people posting in defense of child porn and pedophelia. Does anyone else find this frightening.


I find it more frightening that someone can dictacte what I can and cannot watch just to fit their conformist viewpoints.

Just because I hate Dragonball Z and make dumb quips at any opportunity, does it mean that if I manage to get enough folks to get the goverment to ban it because we can see Gohan show his Wee-Wee in the Cartoon for ONE MINUTE? Of Course Not!!

Quote:
I guess I just find it unsettling because I don't see the difference between someone who jerks it to a naked Card Captor Sakura and someone who jerks it to nude photos of children the same age.


I've seen Worse. Ever seen Hentai of Brigette(sp?) from Guilty Gear?

For those that don't know, Brigette(sp?) may look like a Young Girl in Nun's Clothing, but spoiler[whichever definition you like, "She" is really a "He." ]

Oh, and i've also Seen Card Captors Sakura Hentai as well. Actually, some of the minor characters. Pretty Well Drawn, thought they were much older till someone pointed out that they were from CCS.

See, people can't always really tell the difference between Lolikon AND Adult Material.
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hkrok76



Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 118
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 7:06 am Reply with quote
[troll]Everything should be illegal. That'll teach everyone. Bastard trying to eat my pudding. Go to hell![/end troll]

http://www.cgecwm.org/art/this-is-not-a-pipe.jpg
This is not a pipe.

It really isn't.
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Ganryu



Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Posts: 89
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:43 am Reply with quote
hkrok76 wrote:
[troll]Everything should be illegal. That'll teach everyone. Bastard trying to eat my pudding. Go to hell![/end troll]

http://www.cgecwm.org/art/this-is-not-a-pipe.jpg
This is not a pipe.

It really isn't.


You, my friend, are a GENIUS.
I was looking for that picture myself, but i couldn't find it. It fits so well to this discussion that it's crazy.
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torukajin



Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 2
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:13 pm Reply with quote
Let me introduce myself first: I'm Christian Hernandez, 24 years old, COLMEX University's researcher about rorikon manga...

www.colmex.mx

I've researching rorikon culture from the past two years and I have a lot of rorikon material (more than this guy in Canada), I'm not doing any illegal in my country (Mexico) and I'm not a pedophile... Is that clear?

I have a lot to say about from an academic perspective and from my own thoughts...


A. ¿Rorikon = art?

I've reading your posts and comments, and I'm agree about the defense of the freedom of expression and the equation "rorikon = art"

Rorikon can be "illegal" or "immoral" or "sexually explicit" outside Japan, but that doesn't mean that rorikon its "pornography" EVERYWERE... For Canada government rorikon is child porn, that's true, but can't say that rorikon is childporn in all the rest of the world... In Japan, the origin of rorikon, it's a REAL ART...

You must see the works of Miki Hayakasa, the “father of rorikon” in this link, and say after that, if the rorikon doesn’t have a real and intrinsical value…

http://azicon1.at.infoseek.co.jp/index.htm

http://azicon1.at.infoseek.co.jp/kikan.htm


Rorikon is the aesthetics of pedophilia, yes… but that doesn’t mean that it could be consider as “pornography” everywere…

To consider rorikon as childporn everywere is dangerous, not because pedophiles need rorikon for their sexual desires, it’s because we must respect all the views and cultures, and we must not push another people or countries to accept or own believes and thoughts… That’s why dangerous…

If japanese people agree about rorikon, we must respect that decision, and not to try to ban or modify this situation… The respect of another’s people opinion is the peace… If you want to impose yourself over another’s opinion that’s going to make you an intolerant not-so-nice-person (like George W. Bush)…

Respect rorikon and respect the Canadian law… Period.


B. Rorikon and the otaku culture

OK. I’m going to say something from the deepest of my heart…

I'm very shame about most of your posts, because The Anime News Network Forum is supposed to be an anime fans and manga readers' forum... and you MUST defend rorikon because rorikon is a central axe of japanese pop culture...

I'm not saying this like my own opinion, you must read Adult manga by Sharon Kinsella and you are going to understand better how the rorikon manga is a important element of all the japanese anime-manga consumption...

www.kinsellaresearch.com

Most of you are not a real "otaku people", you only are a japanese media and video game consumers, because you still defending your national or religion thoughts over the anime-manga culture…


A real otaku understand that rorikon is not childporn, and understands also that if you enjoy looking rorikon you are not a pervert… That is the same opinion that one of the Genshinken club explains to a normal japanese girl in the chapter two of the anime series Genshiken… If you are really otaku, you must understand that opinion…

http://www.genshiken.info/story.html


C. Just a bounch of consumers

So, OK. I understand that most of the members of this forum are only “consumers”, and that you have a lot of prejudges about child porn, child sexuality and pedophilia… So, I’m not going to have an argument with you discussing about those topics now… Only what I want to say is that you must open your mind to another believes and thoughts and not close your mind because you feel fear…

Anyway, the most pornographic book I’ve read in all my life is THE BIBLE… You only need to read it again, and you are going to discover many many facts about pedophilia in the Christian culture…

Greetings.

Last edited by torukajin on Mon May 02, 2005 2:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 3963
Location: Our house in the middle of our street in Basingstoke, UK.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:59 am Reply with quote
torukajin wrote:
Anyway, the most pornographic book I’ve read in all my life is THE BIBLE… You only need to read it again, and you are going to discover many many facts about pedophilia in the Christian culture…
Flame war chum if ever I've read any. However can you be more specific; ie, Old Testament, New Testament, book, chapter and verse? I have read the Bible many times in my Christian life but I'm afraid I, for the life of me, don't know what you're on about. Wink
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s_j



Joined: 18 Oct 2004
Posts: 162
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 6:42 am Reply with quote
I'm not in any way trying to validate what torukajin wrote...the Bible wasn't written to titillate, period...but there are plenty of references to sex, particularly in the Old Testament. Of course, many would argue that those passages should not be read literally.

There are also some things that can be pretty troubling when read out of context.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=NUM%2031:14-18;&version=9;

Moses, furious to learn that his army had taken live prisoners after defeating the Midianites, commands them to slay all the male children and women, but keep the virgin girls for themselves. Some have construed this as advocating pedophilia...but God's probably just a lot more pragmatic than we give him credit for.

This might seem particularly barbaric to us now, especially coming from Moses...but back in those days, this was pretty much standard sacking procedure.

The Bible merely discribes such events veiled in the dryest language possible, with the exception of Song of Solomon, so I can't see how anyone can say it's pornographic. Just the mere mention of sex is not pornographic.
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