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ANNCast - Viewers Like You: I Think Therefore I Rant


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SoandSo



Joined: 13 Feb 2010
Posts: 204
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:44 pm Reply with quote
jl07045 wrote:
@Zac and Ikillchicken

My apologies, I formulated that wrong. I did not mean just your own individual lifestyle, but your beliefs as well. Being a liberal means that you tolerate other opinions and defend the liberties with arguments and not with attitude (which resolves nothing) or power, unless the situation requires that.


You keep using this word: Liberal. It does not mean what you think it means.
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MoeForDesign



Joined: 28 Jan 2012
Posts: 9
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:49 pm Reply with quote
jl07045 wrote:
Intolerance has nothing to do with someone's opinions being wrong.


Opinions absolutely do have an impact on intolerance. People wouldn't become tolerant or intolerant about anything if they didn't have an opinion one way or another.

My life may not be in danger, but people's personal opinions on this topic most certainly influence my quality of life. Living in Texas little things build up all the time (like people making rude comments about me and my girlfriend in public, a co-worker telling me that my relationship is wrong, or not being able to talk to our families about each other). Things like this affect my ability to live a normal life, and it all stems from people's opinions.

I guess what I'm getting at is that it doesn't have to be something big like a law that will affect people's lives; small things like a single person's opinion or belief can affect people greatly.
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Sir Amyas Leigh



Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Posts: 91
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:01 pm Reply with quote
I liked the colonial disclaimer there, and yes it was to my fancy indeed.

The whole gay thing is just funny. I really can't bring myself to finish/watch shonen-ai shows or even yuri. They almost all simply pander to their respective fanbases and don't do much more than that. I suppose there are a few that are... serious and not cliched like some have posted about on here.

Gundam is great, Ioved MSG, hope I can get DVDs before they disappear. I'm sure we'll see more gundam in the future in NA, for what doesn't get brought here... well either import or internet.

I never really got that ranty 'if you don't like what I like than you're just wrong' from anyone. Even the fanboys that I've met. Guess I haven't been on the internet long enough. Though that monolog of Zacs about the evolution of a new otaku to older refined otaku was really accurate and pretty much summed it up for me.
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Tsukasa-hime



Joined: 12 Mar 2011
Posts: 2
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:11 pm Reply with quote
(There will be talk of religion here, just a warning to those who don't want to hear it!)

My main point is that if other people here are entitled to their opinion, why shouldn't I be entitled to mine? Everyone is fighting for equality and tolerance, and in this whole thing, those of us who do have a problem with things like this are being hated on.

There are multiple verses in the Bible that deal with homosexuality, not just the one in Leviticus (it can be found in Romans and 1 Timothy); as for the dietary laws and such, many of those no longer apply under the new covenant (the New Testament.)

Quote:
This is exactly what I'm talking about. X_X Tsukasa is absolutely going to have to answer for her beliefs and her reasons for them at some point in life, but not on an internet forum in front of more experienced people waiting to lay into her. (Him? Pretty sure the poster is a girl here. ^^; ) If she wants to have a dialogue about this sort of thing, fine, she did bring up the topic, but provoking the ignorant in a hateful way, even if it's in the interest of defending something worth defending, is unkind and won't change any opinions for the better, so I'd like to suggest dropping the attacks from either side.


JesuOtaku: Thank you for being rational here! It was not my intention to start a war or be hated on for what I believe. I am young, 17, (and a girl, btw) so I suppose that takes away from my credibility. I base my opinions on my own experience, my own reading. This is my opinion. If I get hated on for supposedly hating others, I don't see how it's fair. I don't believe anything can be called hate unless it is public or private attacks on another human being. That's not something I am going to do.

I am all for tolerance. But if people of this lifestyle don't have to tolerate mine, how is it fair?

Again, no intention to offend here! I really want to drop any kind of attacks here, but I also wanted to make myself understood beforehand.
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DDBen



Joined: 22 May 2010
Posts: 4
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:18 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:

The people who "have a different opinion" on this issue are literally preventing basic civil rights legislation and forcing through bills that strip American citizens of their rights. The "names" I used for these people in the podcast were remarkably civil considering what I want to call them.

You fight intolerance. You don't respect it.


My views on this matter are unimportant to my statement.

I do however feel that if you think your a intelligent human being you can manage to state your side of things without reducing yourself to name calling and insulting someone who isn't present to argue with. If you would rather have a discussion then you need someone who has a different opinion then your own in order to have a one.

Your not just representing yourself here your representing ANN and I for one found the first segment so off putting I almost stopped listening to the cast. This had nothing to do with your opinion on the topic it was only in how you presented yourself.

All of your responses have been full of venom and yet I don't think at any point you have bothered to listen to what I'm saying.
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TitanXL



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 4036
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:20 pm Reply with quote
I think the only shows dedicated to boy-love I've seen are Gravitation and Sekai-ichi Hatsukoi.

I usually find more entertainment when it's just subtext in the show itself and go from there (like.. Naruto x Sasuke from Naruto, or any similar shounen relationship. Or for a female version, Hikari x Nozomi from Pocket Monsters Diamond & Pearl... or any Pretty Cure series, like Hibiki x Kanade from Suite Precure. Or Kanji x Kuma/Kanji x Naoto in Persona 4. Or I guess Haruka and Michiru from Sailor Moon. Or pretty much every girl/guy ever in Seikon no Qwaser where everyone is as bisexual as they go) In which case I find it either cute, hot, or funny. I like it as a part of the show, but I'm not sure I'm too into it being the main focus of the show (as in pure romance comedy/drama... does the two Nanas in Nana count?)


Last edited by TitanXL on Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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jl07045



Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Posts: 1527
Location: Riga, Latvia
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:22 pm Reply with quote
MoeForDesign wrote:
jl07045 wrote:
Intolerance has nothing to do with someone's opinions being wrong.


Opinions absolutely do have an impact on intolerance. People wouldn't become tolerant or intolerant about anything if they didn't have an opinion one way or another.


Ugh, I am now thinking that I had to write that comment in much more detail.The problem you have is a very good argument why intolerance is wrong, but I was speaking about how we should act in such a situation. Intolerance comes from a real or a perceived threat to one's own worldview or lifestyle. It's a gut reaction and others can't do anything about it without harming someone. The best they can do is try to deal with the source of that threat if the threatened person is willing to go for it. And the source is the opinion. So I guess, yes they're related.


Last edited by jl07045 on Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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MoeForDesign



Joined: 28 Jan 2012
Posts: 9
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:29 pm Reply with quote
Tsukasa-hime wrote:
I am all for tolerance. But if people of this lifestyle don't have to tolerate mine, how is it fair?


I believe it's all about perspective in this instance. In this day and age and in this country, there's not much that will happen to a person when others are intolerant of their Christianity (people have arguments, but usually the one disagreeing with them will be ostracized). People intolerant of homosexuality take away our rights in a country that's supposed to separate church and state, harass us, ostracize and disown us, sometimes harm us—all while the majority backs them up. It just seems to me like there can't be fairness in this situation until the outcomes are fair and the most that will happen in either case is a spirited argument^^
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SoandSo



Joined: 13 Feb 2010
Posts: 204
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:41 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
I don't think at any point you have bothered to listen to what I'm saying.

Your not just representing yourself here your representing ANN


"The views and opinions epressed in this podcast do not neccesarily reflect those of Anime News Network.com."

Pot, I believe you're already well-acqainted with...yourself.
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ABCBTom



Joined: 10 Sep 2009
Posts: 183
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:42 pm Reply with quote
Tsukasa-hime wrote:
I am all for tolerance. But if people of this lifestyle don't have to tolerate mine, how is it fair?

Let me know once laws start getting passed preventing Christians from getting married or adopting children. I'll be happy to stand up against such unfair intolerance.
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Mad_Scientist
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Joined: 08 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:45 pm Reply with quote
MoeForDesign wrote:
Tsukasa-hime wrote:
I am all for tolerance. But if people of this lifestyle don't have to tolerate mine, how is it fair?


I believe it's all about perspective in this instance. In this day and age and in this country, there's not much that will happen to a person when others are intolerant of their Christianity (people have arguments, but usually the one disagreeing with them will be ostracized). People intolerant of homosexuality take away our rights in a country that's supposed to separate church and state, harass us, ostracize and disown us, sometimes harm us—all while the majority backs them up. It just seems to me like there can't be fairness in this situation until the outcomes are fair and the most that will happen in either case is a spirited argument^^


But there are people who have religious issues related to homosexuality, but still support gay marriage because they believe the United States government has no business getting involved in personal sexuality and shouldn't be enforcing morals when it doesn't involve harm to people.

If a person supports gay rights and votes to legalize gay marriage, and does this despite personally believing that homosexual behavior is not right... is that person an intolerant person or a bigot? I'm curious as to what you think.
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:51 pm Reply with quote
Tsukasa-hime wrote:
This is my opinion. If I get hated on for supposedly hating others, I don't see how it's fair.


Well now hang on. I'm certainly not saying there's something inherently wrong with hating or disliking certain people. Disliking or having a problem with another person is fine, so long as it's deserved in some way. It's disliking someone who doesn't deserve it that's wrong.

Hence, from my perspective it's wrong for you to have a problem with homosexuals because there's nothing wrong with homosexuality. However, it's okay for me to have a problem with you because your having a problem with homosexuals is wrong.

Obviously this all rides on the key belief that there's nothing wrong with homosexuality, a belief you dispute, but from my perspective there's no contradiction or double standard. It's perfectly fair. Does that make sense to you?

Quote:
I am all for tolerance. But if people of this lifestyle don't have to tolerate mine, how is it fair?


Conversely, let me ask you this: How can you demand that we all tolerate your lifestyle when you won't tolerate homosexuals lifestyles? How is that fair?
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 23669
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:55 pm Reply with quote
Tsukasa-hime wrote:
(There will be talk of religion here, just a warning to those who don't want to hear it!)

My main point is that if other people here are entitled to their opinion, why shouldn't I be entitled to mine? Everyone is fighting for equality and tolerance, and in this whole thing, those of us who do have a problem with things like this are being hated on.

There are multiple verses in the Bible that deal with homosexuality, not just the one in Leviticus (it can be found in Romans and 1 Timothy); as for the dietary laws and such, many of those no longer apply under the new covenant (the New Testament.)

Quote:
This is exactly what I'm talking about. X_X Tsukasa is absolutely going to have to answer for her beliefs and her reasons for them at some point in life, but not on an internet forum in front of more experienced people waiting to lay into her. (Him? Pretty sure the poster is a girl here. ^^; ) If she wants to have a dialogue about this sort of thing, fine, she did bring up the topic, but provoking the ignorant in a hateful way, even if it's in the interest of defending something worth defending, is unkind and won't change any opinions for the better, so I'd like to suggest dropping the attacks from either side.


JesuOtaku: Thank you for being rational here! It was not my intention to start a war or be hated on for what I believe. I am young, 17, (and a girl, btw) so I suppose that takes away from my credibility. I base my opinions on my own experience, my own reading. This is my opinion. If I get hated on for supposedly hating others, I don't see how it's fair. I don't believe anything can be called hate unless it is public or private attacks on another human being. That's not something I am going to do.

I am all for tolerance. But if people of this lifestyle don't have to tolerate mine, how is it fair?

Again, no intention to offend here! I really want to drop any kind of attacks here, but I also wanted to make myself understood beforehand.


First of all, even after a few posts, I'm still not sure what your opinion of homosexuality actually is. It would seem that you disapprove of it, but you also don't feel that people should be hateful towards homosexuals? Am I in the ballpark? Well, okay, if a-holes who go out and beat and kill gay people because of their sexual orientation are at one end of the homophobic scale, I guess your vaguely condescending attitude is at the other end. But you are still on the scale.

Your "people say we should be tolerant of gay people so why can't you be tolerant of my vaguely disapproving attitude towards gay people" is just silly. "Hey, you say we shouldn't be prejudiced towards black people but you're prejudiced against me because I kinda believe there is a basis for being prejudiced against black people. Where's the tolerance for my sorta-kinda prejudice???" Rolling Eyes That's what you seem to be saying.
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504NOSON2
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Joined: 28 Jul 2008
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Location: Body:Santa Barbara, CA ~ Heart:New Orleans, LA
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:57 pm Reply with quote
Tsukasa_Hime and JesuOtaku have really already said what I was going to; labeling a homophobic person as a "bigot" that's akin to a racist is unfair and inaccurate, because the ultimate causes are different. And the central foci of those causes are a belief that homosexuality is not a natural sexual preference, but a choice to engage in an otherwise perceived "wrong" lifestyle.

There is a growing body of empirical evidence from disciplines, such as psychology, neuroscience, and genetics, that suggests that homosexual preferences are the result of a combination of hormones, genes, and the environment. So, it most certainly is not a choice. However, one must remember that the United States is a deeply religious nation, and Christianity (an inherently homonegative religion) is thoroughly intertwined with American culture and mindset. Homosexuality is classified as a "mortal sin" in many sects of the Catholic denomination. These people genuinely, earnestly believe that sodomy is a grave violation of moral law.

Now, whether it's a violation of the laws of natural selection is a different issue. I think both yes and no. Sodomy, obviously, doesn't lead to conception -- which is the whole purpose of sex. It's also comparatively more risky than normal sex, in terms of the bacterial and vector spread, and the higher likelihood of condom failure. And homosexuality, in itself, is the result of brain abnormalities. None of that says anything about its moral nature, though. And it's still the result of natural processes.

As far as its depiction in anime, I, personally, don't mind. Sasameki Koto was a really good shoujo-ai show, and it had a realistic cast of lesbian females, and it wasn't centered around their sexual encounters. Japan still a ways to go, as far as capturing reality of such relationships, and their normal nature.


Last edited by 504NOSON2 on Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 23669
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:07 pm Reply with quote
504NOSON2 wrote:
And homosexuality, in itself, is the result of brain abnormalities.


Citation please. And as for your "intolerance towards homosexuality that arises from religious beliefs cannot accurately be described as bigotry" argument - Laughing Yeah, whatever.


Last edited by Blood- on Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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