×
  • remind me tomorrow
  • remind me next week
  • never remind me
Subscribe to the ANN Newsletter • Wake up every Sunday to a curated list of ANN's most interesting posts of the week. read more

Forum - View topic
Proposed extension to romanization policy




Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Encyclopedia
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Dan42
Chief Encyclopedist


Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 3782
Location: Montreal
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 4:07 pm Reply with quote
I'd like to propose a slight deviation from the Hepburn standard of romanization at ANN. I've always hated seeing Japanese names with "oo" in them. Sometimes they should be written "ō", but sometimes it is correct to write them "oo" as per Hepburn modified:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepburn_romanization wrote:
The combination a + a is written aa, if a word-border exists between them.
The combination u + u is written uu, if a word-border exists between them or it is the end part of terminal form of a verb.
The combination e + e is written ee, if a word-border exists between them.
The combination o + o is written oo, if a word-border exists between them.
The combination o + u is written ou, if a word-border exists between them or it is the end part of terminal form of a verb.

But that really bugs me because "oo" reads to me like the sound in "cookie", not the double-o sound of Japanese. And the same goes with the other double-vowels described above. "ee" reads like the sound in "spleen" and "ou"/"uu" are indistinguishable from wapuro-style long vowels. So I propose we put an apostrophe or a hyphen between those word-border vowels, like this:
kanji hiragana decomposition mod.Hepburn ANN' ANN- translation
真新しい まあたらしい (ma) + (a + ta + ra) + shi + i maatarashii ma'atarashii ma-atarashii Brand-new
食う くう (ku) + u kuu ku'u ku-u Eat
縫う ぬう (nu) + u nuu nu'u nu-u Sew
濡れ縁 ぬれえん (nu) + re + (e + n) nureen nure'en nure-en Open veranda
小躍り こおどり (ko) + (o + do) + ri koodori ko'odori ko-odori Dance
追う おう (o) + u ou o'u o-u To chase
迷う まよう (ma + yo) + u mayou mayo'u mayo-u To get lost
子馬 こうま (ko) + (u + ma) kouma ko'uma ko-uma Foal
憂鬱 ゆううつ (yu + u) + (u + tsu) yūutsu yū'utsu yū-utsu Melancholy
横内 よこうち (yo + ko) + (u + chi) yokouchi yoko'uchi yoko-uchi

Any thoughts?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address My Anime My Manga
Dessa



Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 4438
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:09 pm Reply with quote
My only concern would be distinguishing between things that have hyphens and apostraphe's due to romanization, and things that have them as part of their official title (such as La Corda d'Oro / Kin'iro no Corda).

ANN is taken as an authority for many things relating to anime, and I can see people taking these as "official" spellings/romanizations.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime
Dan42
Chief Encyclopedist


Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 3782
Location: Montreal
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:39 pm Reply with quote
We're not getting rid of our existing practices, so if there's an official romanization then that takes precedence. But in the absence of such a thing, all romanizations are IMHO equally valid; we just have to pick one.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address My Anime My Manga
dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 9902
Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:46 pm Reply with quote
Another concern would be people's names like Keito Koume. His family name 小梅 should be break down to "(ko) + (ume)", but I have yet to see any official romanization using "Ko-ume" or "Ko'ume" in order to "teach" readers not to pronounce it as "(kou) + (me)".

And the biggest challenge would be those male given names with "-ichi" at the end with a "n" (ん) right in front of it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger ICQ Number My Anime My Manga
Dan42
Chief Encyclopedist


Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 3782
Location: Montreal
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:47 pm Reply with quote
Hmm, yeah, neither Ko-ume nor Ko'ume feel right. Koume looks natural but instinctively I read that as (Ko+u)+(me).
What about Ko·ume? Wink

But for someone like 小杉 十郎太 (misromanized as Juurouta Kosugi Rolling Eyes), personally I prefer Jūro'ota to Jūroota.

The n'ichi names don't present a challenge because according to Hepburn rules they're supposed to have an apostrophe; in a way my proposal was to extend this rule to cover other ambiguities.

And maybe I'm overthinking this and there's no point in trying to "teach" readers the proper pronunciation like you say.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address My Anime My Manga
Dessa



Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 4438
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:03 am Reply with quote
My comment was more differentiating between things with official romanizations like that, and ones that have been added for pronunciation aid. Like "La Corda d'Oro" vs the "Ko'ume". The "·" reads a bit better to me, since a) I don't know of anything off the top of my head officially using it in romanization (like with the hyphen or the apostrophe), and b) since it's smaller, it's easier to read, IMO.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime
doc-watson42
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 10 Feb 2003
Posts: 1708
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:37 am Reply with quote
Dan42 wrote:
Hmm, yeah, neither Ko-ume nor Ko'ume feel right. Koume looks natural but instinctively I read that as (Ko+u)+(me).
What about Ko·ume? Wink

While I'm not certain about the rest of the proposal, I am opposed to introducing the interpunct, since it does not correspond to any official romanization. (Though I acknowledge that your smiley may mean that on this point you are joking.)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
EmperorBrandon
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 04 Oct 2002
Posts: 2209
Location: Springfield, MO
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:11 am Reply with quote
If we do this, I would prefer apostrophes to hyphens. Otherwise, don't think I have anything to add.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
Shiroi Hane
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 25 Oct 2003
Posts: 7580
Location: Wales
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:09 pm Reply with quote
The apostrophe is definitely better than the hyphen, especially since you do occasionally see the hyphen used in romaji to represent a chōonpu (for example Eiji Komatsu writes his name in a nonstandard fashion as えーじ and I have seen it romanised E-ji more than once, although we use Eeji).

Some of the proposed examples "look" better than others. I'm not famiiar with maatarashii, but ma'atarashii is the most natural-seeming of the lot and the shorter ones like ku'u and o'u the most "unnatural", probably due to the letter/punctuation balance.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger ICQ Number My Anime My Manga
doc-watson42
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 10 Feb 2003
Posts: 1708
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:01 pm Reply with quote
Having thought about it, IMHO it would be better not to create an unofficial extension of an standard romanization system, but to instead add links to the applicable submission forms (titles, songs, cast and staff, and episode titles) to the Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Japan-related articles and Hepburn romanization articles, with a statement of what our romanization policy is.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Dan42
Chief Encyclopedist


Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 3782
Location: Montreal
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:07 pm Reply with quote
Adding links to the romanization policy would indeed be a good thing, but is not directly relevant to the topic at hand which is about extending said romanization policy to fix a (perceived) deficiency. The purpose of the Hepburn system is to emulate Japanese pronunciation in a way that can be read naturally by English speakers. If that was not a concern then we'd all be using Nihon-shiki since it allows a much more simple one-to-one mapping of kana. But in the cases presented above the Hepburn system fails its purpose; the oo in Mari Yokoo should not be pronounced like foot and the ee in Megumi Kanee should not be pronounced like feet.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address My Anime My Manga
doc-watson42
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 10 Feb 2003
Posts: 1708
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:00 pm Reply with quote
Dan42 wrote:
Adding links to the romanization policy would indeed be a good thing, but is not directly relevant to the topic at hand which is about extending said romanization policy to fix a (perceived) deficiency.

Then just link to Wikibooks's Japanese/Pronunciation entry, or copy what we need from the pronunciation guide from the back of any of Icarus Publishing's books (it's the most comprehensive one in English-language manga), modified to include macrons and other necessities:

Quote:
This is a simplified guide to help you read and pronounce revised Hepburn romanization, the system the ANN Encyclopedia uses to transliterate Japanese.

There are five main vowels in Japanese:

A: ah as in "father"
I: ee as in "eat"
U: oo as in "boot", but without puckering your lips
E: eh as in "pet"
O: oh as in "toe", but without puckering your lips

Those vowels, in conjunction with other consonants or by themselves, form syllables. Japanese syllables are said in equal lengths and tone, and are generally shorter compared to English vowels. Also, mouth movements should be restrained. Avoid moving the corners of your mouth as much as possible.

Vowels with macrons and two of the same vowels (Aa, Ii, Ū, Ō) create the same sound but are spoken at twice the length. Ei is the equivalent of Ee (for example, as in "sensei" ("teacher"/"master"). The vowel combination ai is similar to the long i as in "idol". Ee is pronounced eh - eh, not ee as "eat", and Oo is pronounced oh - oh, not oo as in "boot".

Consonants are written phonetically with few exceptions. Tsu sounds like a cross between the sounds ch- and sue, but without puckering your lips. Fu is pronounced like "who", without puckering, and with the front teeth close to the lower lip. The R sound is pronounced similarly to an L sound, but without much force, and with the tongue flicking, not rolling, against the roof of you mouth instead of your teeth.

Compound consonants such as ky-, ny-, my-, ry-, etc., are not individual syllables, as Y is not a vowel. For example, kyu should be pronounced like cu in "cute", not "kee-yoo" or "kai-yoo".

The syllables shi, ku, bu, pu, and su may be pronounced with de-emphasis of the vowel, especially when they are the last syllable of a word. For example, dōshita ("what's wrong?") may be pronounced doh - SH - ta.

The special consonant n/m is pronounced like ng in "song". For example, konbanwa ("good evening") should be pronounced kohn - bahn - wa.

Double consonants often signify an extremely short silence (called a glottal stop), a pause between the previous syllable and the next. For example, the word gakkō ("school") should be pronounced gah - [pause] - koh.

Add a page with that, with whatever changes, and link the applicable submission forms to it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Shiroi Hane
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 25 Oct 2003
Posts: 7580
Location: Wales
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:13 pm Reply with quote
Whatever you do, don't use the example I found in one of my Japanese learning books - "'a' as in 'hot'". Had me scratching my head for a while that one, till I remembered Ross yelling "hat caffee" in Friends.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger ICQ Number My Anime My Manga
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Encyclopedia All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group