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Cecilthedarkknight_234



Joined: 02 Apr 2011
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Location: Louisville, KY

PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:29 pm Reply with quote
well if I had to point out a strong female characters I have two off the top of my head.
1Misaka from railgun/index
2.Motoko kusanagi from ghost in the shell

I would have to disagree a bit from the moe~ archetypes but since most are based off visual novels/eroge then lets move on.. Since I am not big fan adaptions. However I do think the tsundere archetype can be done right for some female characters but it has been overused sadly.

On the 2d/3d thing.. I will not dwell in my personal life to much but I am at the point where I don't want a mate or significant other. I have my own personal reasons for this so please don't bother asking me why.


Last edited by Cecilthedarkknight_234 on Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Shenl742
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:39 pm Reply with quote
Haven't, listened yet, but I believe no discussion of sexism and female characters in media should go without mentioning this wonderful comic strip
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Charred Knight



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:49 pm Reply with quote
Examples of strong females

Olivier Mira Armstrong, Riza Hawkeye, and Izumi Curtis from Fullmetal Alchemist, most of the cast of My-Otome, the females in SRW OG (though this is a video game property), Renaise from GGG Final, various Gundam females (Emma Sheen, Christina Mckenzie, Rain Mikamura, and Allenby Beardsly).
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willag
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:18 pm Reply with quote
Oh man, this show was made for me in mind.

Having only listened to the first 12 minutes, I just have a few initial thoughts.

Sexism in Fanservice: Maybe it's because I've been indoctrinated with fanservice for men from such a young age by enjoying some of the action titles that my father enjoyed (i.e. James Bond) - where sexy girls in outfits that just don't make sense for whatever job they're doing is the norm - but I'm with Bamboo where this sort of sexism doesn't bother me as much. I've become desensitized to it... for the most part. Yes, I'll still roll my eyes for the overthetop, tryingtoohard scenes, but I mostly try to ignore them. Besides, it's not like turning the opposite sex into sex objects is exclusive only to men. While fanservice for women tends to focus more on relationships and feelings, there's still plenty of objectifying going on there as well.

I guess the argument that can be made here is that since the power balance between men and women is still unequal in today's culture (less so in the West than in Japan), that sexual fanservice for men is viewed as the norm (many people, women included, become desensitized to it and don't make a big hubbub about it because it's just so common, other than the most vocal - i.e. "feminists", a word that seems to have such negative connotation attached to it) and sexual fanservice for women is seen as abnormal. Also, women who are very open about sex are viewed as "loose", while with men it's almost expected for them to be horn dogs (from a genetics/evolution/natural selection standpoint, I understand where such thinking comes from, but that doesn't mean I dislike it any less).

I always tended to be more offended with the "damsel in distress" or "object of his affections" (with no other defining personality) roles than the "sexy female spy" (not that they're mutually exclusive... most, if not all, James Bond movies end with him saving the girl). And, yes, it tends to be moe that ticks me off more than the tornado bewbs.

Can't go into it further now, but I'm certain to discuss more later.


Last edited by willag on Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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TitanXL



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:57 pm Reply with quote
Oh dear.

Ignoring everything for a second, the problem with this topic as a whole is people have different views. What one person views as sexist, another views as empowering.

"Showing off your body? Objectification!"
"Not allowed to dress the way you want? Oppression!'

You won't please everyone as long as free will is in effect.

So the same thing with the 'strong female characters' archetype people like to throw around. Strong in way what? Kick your butt and 'action girl badass' kind of way? Or as a well written realistic character? People have different takes on it.. a girl who "can do this just as well as any men regardless of any logic or established lore" or "one of the most developed characters out there but she'd get her ass kicked in a fight ,so she's weak and sexist, blah"

Unless you can agree on a definition first and foremost, the argument will go nowhere. Which is why I think anime has the biggest percentage of female participants out of video games/comics/carotons/etc. Anime is so varied they have tons of examples of both sides, so all those people can be pleased and enjoy those series they like.


Last edited by TitanXL on Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:20 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Surrender Artist
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:59 pm Reply with quote
I haven't had a chance to listen yet, although I intend to do so later tonight, but I would like to thank Zac for arranging for this discussion. It's something that I think merits more and better discussion generally and within anime fandom particularly. It also crosses an item off on my ANNCast wish list, although I've already gone and filled its slot with 'Matt Thorn Interview'. There's also something about bananas, but that might have been when I got confused and thought that I was writing a grocery list.

I really hope that this comment thread doesn't go too awry.


Last edited by Surrender Artist on Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:00 pm Reply with quote
Bakuman. is kind of sexist, I'll admit, but it's mostly not.

Kō (A.K.A. Aoki) doesn't know how to draw pantyshots and is apparently still a virgin despite being very beautiful. But she has inner-strength and refuses to put up with spoiler[Nakai after he treats her like rubbish.] She's a Kuudere, frosty on the outside but once she warms up she's really quite sweet.

Aiko (A.K.A. Iwase) is a complete bitch, but she's extremely intelligent and massively hardworking to boot. I'll admit that her spoiler[getting into Manga just to show up Akito is a bit sad,] but with that sort of fire in her eyes she'll probably do well. As Kō noticed, Aiko is still emotionally immature, so there's room for improvement. You know, character development.

Kaya may seem a bit strange. She's an accomplished sports-person. She's not bright but she does have more intelligence than other characters give her credit for; she's certainly not stupid. So her desire to stick by Akito and just support him can be misconstrued as the show being misogynist and keeping an otherwise successful girl down. But the way I see it, she simply doesn't know yet what she wants to do with her life, except that she wants to be with Akito. She's only nineteen, she has plenty of time to find herself.

And then we come to the big kahuna, Miho. I've said in the past that the horrible setup is a huge negative held against the show. (I've also said that the fact the show is so strong despite this negative means it must be truly amazing.) But Miho is not a weak person, she got really angry with Moritaka when she realised he was lying to her. And with the "prize" comment, well, it works both ways. spoiler[She's liked him as long as he's liked her, as certain flashbacks point out.] For Miho, Moritaka is as much of a prize to her as she is to him. It is the thought of being with him that spurs her on to be successful. And she is doing pretty well, arguably better than Akito and Moirtaka.

I think if you over-examine any piece of work you will find that it is sexist. PlanetES is sexist because spoiler[Ai patiently waits at home while her husband makes a name for himself.] Cowboy Bebop is sexist because spoiler[Faye falls in love with Spike, thereby proving that not matter how strong she is, she needs a man.] Hellsing is sexist, because Integra - who wants to a man so badly she titles herself Sir - wouldn't have any real power if it wasn't for Alucard.

See what I mean? None of those shows are sexist, but with feminist-goggles on you can find sexism everywhere, even places where it simply does not exist.
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Teggy



Joined: 08 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:07 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
Hellsing is sexist, because Integra - who wants to a man so badly she titles herself Sir - wouldn't have any real power if it wasn't for Alucard.


She's called "Sir" because she's knighted. Though you have a good point about the latter. Without Alucard, she'd be dead.
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merr



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:08 pm Reply with quote
Haven't finished listening to the whole thing yet, but I just have to say, this is whole talk is VERY well done. I wish more people would acknowledge some of the issues you guys are bringing up.

dtm42 wrote:
I think if you over-examine any piece of work you will find that it is sexist. PlanetES is sexist because spoiler[Ai patiently waits at home while her husband makes a name for himself.] Cowboy Bebop is sexist because spoiler[Faye falls in love with Spike, thereby proving that not matter how strong she is, she needs a man.] Hellsing is sexist, because Integra - who wants to a man so badly she titles herself Sir - wouldn't have any real power if it wasn't for Alucard.

See what I mean? None of those shows are sexist, but with feminist-goggles on you can find sexism everywhere, even places where it simply does not exist.

The problem with this sort of thinking is that it gives people carte blanche to ignore ACTUAL misogyny when it does occur in the media. If someone points out offensive elements in a show you like, it's much easier to label them a militant feminist who can be ignored than it is to actually consider what that person is saying.


Last edited by merr on Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Spotlesseden



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:17 pm Reply with quote
wtf Bakuman is Sexism? I can't continue this ep anymore.
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Ojamajo LimePie



Joined: 09 Nov 2007
Posts: 510

PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:18 pm Reply with quote
Just started it, but I felt that I should comment.

Feminine characters who pursue a romantic relationship are more sexist than characters who literally get their clothes ripped off and jiggle like Jell-O? Confused As a woman and a feminist, I have to disagree. It's all about having agency to choose your future.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:20 pm Reply with quote
Ojamajo LimePie wrote:
Just started it, but I felt that I should comment.

Feminine characters who pursue a romantic relationship are more sexist than characters who literally get their clothes ripped off and jiggle like Jell-O? Confused As a woman and a feminist, I have to disagree. It's all about having agency to choose your future.


This is a total misunderstanding of what was said. In fact, nobody said anything like this at all. You need to have your ears checked, maybe.
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Fifth B



Joined: 05 Sep 2010
Posts: 213

PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:21 pm Reply with quote
Oh God, DearS, I had almost forgotten about that little treasure. Thanks for bringing back memories.

I have to admit, I'm probably not the best at detecting sexism in media unless it's really, really blatant. Most of the time, if a show seems to be objectifying women or just really taking the piss with panty-shots and so forth, I may still enjoy the show, but feel rather unclean in the process. For example, I'm aware that Mahoromatic is rather bad in this regard, but I still enjoy the hell out of that show, largely because it's so ridiculous.

As much as I love certain moe shows, some of them can seem quite degrading. I'm in full agreement with Bamboo on Shuffle (I actually shot at my television with an airsoft gun when what's-her-name spent an entire day learning how to crack a damn egg). I was also glad to hear that she didn't feel the same way about the Key shows, which I've always felt, especially in the case of the dubbed versions, take the best elements of moe while toning down the more unsavory aspects.

Two points which come to mind. There was talk of the milquetoast harem lead, but it seems to me that these characters are becoming less common, and are instead being replaced by suave "big brother' type characters. This makes some sense, since I would imagine that one would rather imagine himself as the cool ladies’ man rather than the dweeb. Does anyone else feel the same way or am I making things up here? Also, does having a male lead who always has to make it clear that, as the man, he has to protect the female cast, but who has no idea what he's doing and is thus frequently maimed and/or clobbered, tone down the impact of such expressions?

As for strong female characters, I can think of quite a few. Spoor and Lafiel from Banner of the Stars come to mind, as do Kurau from Kurau Phantom Memory and, in a more sinister vein, Balalaika from Black Lagoon. Not to mention most of the cast of Simoun.
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Lynx Amali



Joined: 05 Nov 2010
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Location: Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:22 pm Reply with quote
Charred Knight wrote:
Examples of strong females
Renaise from GGG Final


Regular OVA FINAL or Grand Glorious Gathering FINAL?

Episode 4 of the original is sort of bad for her character IMO. I'm talking about THAT scene. It was really just there for fanservice and sorta just plummeted her character downwards.

FINAL-GGG however very much portrays Renais as a very strong, independent woman. Final-GGG and the novel, Queen of Leo, give her much more development without reducing her status or character.

I couldn't but laugh in the case of the SRW mention. Yeah, in some cases, the females are more strong-willed. Katina comes to mind. She definitely is stronger than Russel/ Generic McGeneric in a lot of ways.
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bravetailor



Joined: 30 May 2009
Posts: 775

PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:24 pm Reply with quote
TitanXL wrote:


Unless you can agree on a definition first and foremost, the argument will go nowhere. Which is why I think anime has the biggest percentage of female participants out of video games/comics/carotons/etc. Anime is so varied they have tons of examples of both sides, so all those people can be pleased and enjoy those series they like.


I agree.

This is a tough topic because ANN has had many threads discussing sexism in anime in the past, and they're always contentious. I mean, it's nice that anime fans show awareness of these issues in their hobby, but there's always a point during these discussions when self-righteousness supercedes the actual content of the examples in question.

I've also been, in the past, exceedingly wary of making broad empathic statements about a gender or race of which I am not apart of. It's easy to draw a bullet point list about what constitutes sexism *in my opinion* but to pass it off as being empathic to the concerns of the party in question, it would be treading dangerously into self-righteousness.

I have, for example, in the past labelled Sailor Moon as a grossly un-feminist character, but alternate perspectives from the other sex have made me retract that opinion--and they were right. I was speaking from a position of self-righteousness, a "male's impression of feminism" when in fact I have zero empathic emotional precedence to base my opinion on. That is not to say I shouldn't have opinions on these issues, but now I lay them out with a certain amount of reticence and acknowledgement of my lack of emotional authority from which to speak.

Just wait until discussions for B Gata H Kei when the Funimation set is eventually reviewed here. Because that's a show that one can seriously argue strongly for both ways. On one hand it's got as much blatant fanservice as anyone has ever seen in a relatively mainstream marketed anime. On the other hand it's also the most dedicatedly female-perspective anime solely focused on sex that has been released in North America to date.


Last edited by bravetailor on Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:55 pm; edited 2 times in total
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