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ConanSan



Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Posts: 1818

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:29 am Reply with quote
samuelp wrote:
Conan-san wrote:
I was really interested until the region lock reared it's satanic head.


One thing I'll try proposing (although honestly I doubt it would work), would be letting anyone access from anywhere as long as they've registered a credit card with a US billing address (same as itunes).
I figured if it's good enough for Viz's manga app it should be good enough for us too, right?

However I could see that running into lawsuits from companies who might still own rights to some of the shows in certain countries. And I'm very wary of having a site where a viewer from one country can only see a subset of the shows of a viewer from another country, since weekly rankings, news, etc need to involve all shows on the site.
Well what am I supposed to do when I'm being told to screw off because I'm scottish?
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samuelp



Joined: 25 Nov 2007
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Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:34 am Reply with quote
Conan-san wrote:
samuelp wrote:
Conan-san wrote:
I was really interested until the region lock reared it's satanic head.


One thing I'll try proposing (although honestly I doubt it would work), would be letting anyone access from anywhere as long as they've registered a credit card with a US billing address (same as itunes).
I figured if it's good enough for Viz's manga app it should be good enough for us too, right?

However I could see that running into lawsuits from companies who might still own rights to some of the shows in certain countries. And I'm very wary of having a site where a viewer from one country can only see a subset of the shows of a viewer from another country, since weekly rankings, news, etc need to involve all shows on the site.
Well what am I supposed to do when I'm being told to screw off because I'm scottish?

You can import the R1 DVDs when they're made if it's a show you're interested in.
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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3199
Location: NE Ohio

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:57 am Reply with quote
samuelp wrote:
... However I could see that running into lawsuits from companies who might still own rights to some of the shows in certain countries. And I'm very wary of having a site where a viewer from one country can only see a subset of the shows of a viewer from another country, since weekly rankings, news, etc need to involve all shows on the site.

A lot depends on whether its a couple of region locked titles or lots, and for that aiming at North America, Australia & New Zealand, South Africa and England & Ireland & Northern Europe (Netherlands, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark) does not seem likely to have as many series notched out for conflicting rights as, say, the rest of Europe, or Brazil and Portugal.
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Charred Knight



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 3023

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:16 am Reply with quote
Surrender Artist wrote:
Would fans who fund a project have any influence over the production, such as delegates on the production committee? Would they be treated as people who had just placed really, really advance preorders or more like shareholders entitled to some portion of the revenue?


That would be a nightmare

"I paid 2 thousand dollars to see the lead and his rival be gay lovers, and by golly I am going to get a makeout scene between those two".
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 6978
Location: Snake Mountain Cocktail Lounge

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:34 am Reply with quote
Charred Knight wrote:
Surrender Artist wrote:
Would fans who fund a project have any influence over the production, such as delegates on the production committee? Would they be treated as people who had just placed really, really advance preorders or more like shareholders entitled to some portion of the revenue?


That would be a nightmare

"I paid 2 thousand dollars to see the lead and his rival be gay lovers, and by golly I am going to get a makeout scene between those two".


It's full circle, though.

"Okay, we've removed your ability as an artist to make money through traditional means by breaking laws that nobody enforces.

Now, if you want to make a living as an artist, you have to do it this way.

By the way, if you want to make money this way, I get to dictate to you what your art has to be."

There are probably millions of people who see nothing wrong with this model whatsoever.
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samuelp



Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 1556
Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:41 am Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
Charred Knight wrote:
Surrender Artist wrote:
Would fans who fund a project have any influence over the production, such as delegates on the production committee? Would they be treated as people who had just placed really, really advance preorders or more like shareholders entitled to some portion of the revenue?


That would be a nightmare

"I paid 2 thousand dollars to see the lead and his rival be gay lovers, and by golly I am going to get a makeout scene between those two".


It's full circle, though.

"Okay, we've removed your ability as an artist to make money through traditional means by breaking laws that nobody enforces.

Now, if you want to make a living as an artist, you have to do it this way.

By the way, if you want to make money this way, I get to dictate to you what your art has to be."

There are probably millions of people who see nothing wrong with this model whatsoever.

But the micro-patronage model avoids this problem by essentially making any individual opinion too small to matter.

Doesn't having a million donors giving $1 allow an artist more freedom than 1 company providing $1 million in a budget?
I don't really see how
"By the way, if you want to make money this way, I get to dictate to you what your art has to be."
doesn't pretty much apply to the way things are today with large corporate funding. Think about how many anime directors have probably been told "Hey, we want you to use this song for your opening and ending." because the music production company is a big part of the committee...
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 6978
Location: Snake Mountain Cocktail Lounge

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:48 am Reply with quote
samuelp wrote:

But the micro-patronage model avoids this problem by essentially making any individual opinion too small to matter.

Doesn't having a million donors giving $1 allow an artist more freedom than 1 company providing $1 million in a budget?
I don't really see how
"By the way, if you want to make money this way, I get to dictate to you what your art has to be."
doesn't pretty much apply to the way things are today with large corporate funding. Think about how many anime directors have probably been told "Hey, we want you to use this song for your opening and ending." because the music production company is a big part of the committee...


I guess then it boils down to this: "Hey artist, who would you rather be a slave to? A huge soulless corporation or your demanding fans and their terrible ideas?"

I don't think creative input should be part of *any* micro-patronage thing, or even any "angel investment" scenario. If the idea here is to empower the fan to more directly support the artist, we should also have total creative freedom for the artist baked in to any agreement. After all, everyone's buying in because they believe in that artist's vision.
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Charred Knight



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 3023

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:55 am Reply with quote
samuelp wrote:

But the micro-patronage model avoids this problem by essentially making any individual opinion too small to matter.

Doesn't having a million donors giving $1 allow an artist more freedom than 1 company providing $1 million in a budget?
I don't really see how
"By the way, if you want to make money this way, I get to dictate to you what your art has to be."
doesn't pretty much apply to the way things are today with large corporate funding. Think about how many anime directors have probably been told "Hey, we want you to use this song for your opening and ending." because the music production company is a big part of the committee...


If you can get a million people to actually donate to the various projects? It should avoid that problem completely. That's what I hope happens, that's the best case scenario where you expand the audience, and decrease the cost to the customers. The result would be a group of people wanting to make anime their way without feeling like they have to compromise to either the fans or some production committee.

It's really ambitious and best of luck to you.
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omoikane



Joined: 03 Oct 2005
Posts: 255

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:14 pm Reply with quote
samuelp wrote:
Man, I should see if I can get Yohko (TV) for the site. I love that show Smile

You WILL HAVE ALL MY MONIES if this was the case.
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Asterisk-CGY



Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 288

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:50 pm Reply with quote
Charred Knight wrote:
samuelp wrote:

But the micro-patronage model avoids this problem by essentially making any individual opinion too small to matter.

Doesn't having a million donors giving $1 allow an artist more freedom than 1 company providing $1 million in a budget?
I don't really see how
"By the way, if you want to make money this way, I get to dictate to you what your art has to be."
doesn't pretty much apply to the way things are today with large corporate funding. Think about how many anime directors have probably been told "Hey, we want you to use this song for your opening and ending." because the music production company is a big part of the committee...


If you can get a million people to actually donate to the various projects? It should avoid that problem completely. That's what I hope happens, that's the best case scenario where you expand the audience, and decrease the cost to the customers. The result would be a group of people wanting to make anime their way without feeling like they have to compromise to either the fans or some production committee.

It's really ambitious and best of luck to you.


Arguably creativity needs to be monopolized, because it's that singular vision which creates the best ideas. At most heavy contributors get some sort of cameo or nudge in the final product. Investors would get profit sharing, but the idea is with other sources they lose most of that clout that bothers the creative process.
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ConanSan



Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Posts: 1818

PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:00 am Reply with quote
samuelp wrote:
Conan-san wrote:
samuelp wrote:
Conan-san wrote:
I was really interested until the region lock reared it's satanic head.


One thing I'll try proposing (although honestly I doubt it would work), would be letting anyone access from anywhere as long as they've registered a credit card with a US billing address (same as itunes).
I figured if it's good enough for Viz's manga app it should be good enough for us too, right?

However I could see that running into lawsuits from companies who might still own rights to some of the shows in certain countries. And I'm very wary of having a site where a viewer from one country can only see a subset of the shows of a viewer from another country, since weekly rankings, news, etc need to involve all shows on the site.
Well what am I supposed to do when I'm being told to screw off because I'm scottish?

You can import the R1 DVDs when they're made if it's a show you're interested in.
IF they're made. Say you put up Hypothetical Robot Man McAWesomeSause and it looks really interesting or I saw it dubbed on the BBC in my youth and really want a DVD of it, I have no means of helping that DVD into existence than blindly praying to whatever ethereal deity I do or do not believe in.

You see the obvious problem here. The non acknowledgement of demand where there might be a million people screaming for it behind a draconian system that should not exist in the space year 2012?
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samuelp



Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 1556
Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:33 am Reply with quote
Conan-san wrote:
samuelp wrote:
Conan-san wrote:
samuelp wrote:
Conan-san wrote:
I was really interested until the region lock reared it's satanic head.


One thing I'll try proposing (although honestly I doubt it would work), would be letting anyone access from anywhere as long as they've registered a credit card with a US billing address (same as itunes).
I figured if it's good enough for Viz's manga app it should be good enough for us too, right?

However I could see that running into lawsuits from companies who might still own rights to some of the shows in certain countries. And I'm very wary of having a site where a viewer from one country can only see a subset of the shows of a viewer from another country, since weekly rankings, news, etc need to involve all shows on the site.
Well what am I supposed to do when I'm being told to screw off because I'm scottish?

You can import the R1 DVDs when they're made if it's a show you're interested in.
IF they're made. Say you put up Hypothetical Robot Man McAWesomeSause and it looks really interesting or I saw it dubbed on the BBC in my youth and really want a DVD of it, I have no means of helping that DVD into existence than blindly praying to whatever ethereal deity I do or do not believe in.

You see the obvious problem here. The non acknowledgement of demand where there might be a million people screaming for it behind a draconian system that should not exist in the space year 2012?

We are seriously considering allowing anyone to pledge money, and only region locking the streaming videos themselves, so yes, you will be able to contribute to the creation of R1 DVDs assuming we allow it.

Also, I plan to have a detailed message pop up for any international viewer which will link to a feedback survey where you can enter information like "which series were you trying to view", etc, which we can use to judge international demand and give real statistics to the rights holders.

"Non-acknowledgement of demand" is simply false. The issue is "fear of fully destroying the old system". Should region locking exist in 2012? No. But it DOES exist, and a lot of the old way demands it exists for contracts, many of which are still in effect.
So change will come, but it will come slowly, and it will probably not come from the direction of classic anime, unfortunately, as the age of the shows just makes them MORE difficult than newer properties.

What I'm trying to say is that the fastest way to change region locking is to, for example, buy the Yamato 2199 blurays with english subs Smile

Also, there are ways of helping other than financially: You can spread the word, use social media, reach out to your friends who live in the US/Canada, etc...
You could even get together a bunch of UK fans + one US fan, and give the US fan the money to pledge. "$100 for 'Sponsored by UK Giant Robots Anonymous'" would be an awesome way to do it.
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configspace



Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 2884

PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:58 am Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
I don't think creative input should be part of *any* micro-patronage thing, or even any "angel investment" scenario. If the idea here is to empower the fan to more directly support the artist, we should also have total creative freedom for the artist baked in to any agreement. After all, everyone's buying in because they believe in that artist's vision.

I don't see anything wrong with the idea of offering creative input as an incentive because essentially your later statement of "After all, everyone's buying in because they believe in that artist's vision." results in the same idea. The idea of a empowering the fan to support an artist isn't to support the person, it's to support what he produces. In the regular non-investment/patronage market, the same process still effectively takes place (except with more risk)

Even real angel investors invest because they believe in the products of the company, not because they want to be charitable. I wouldn't worry about creativity at all. In fact, a kickstarter type of model in general allows for more freedom, which includes freedom to do things some people may not agree with. Artists are still free to pitch their ideas and no one is forcing them to take on any job and they are free to offer what range of input/variables are allowed and people are free to accept or reject it. This is very common right now in art communities like deviantart and others (in 3D CG communities as well), with many artists doing commissions. Artist A will offer to do some type of stuff, while artist B will do other types of stuff.
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Megiddo



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 6237
Location: IL

PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:58 am Reply with quote
Just want to say that I really appreciate Sam (Quarkboy's) role in getting the simulcasting subtitle process more streamlined and for much of the work he has done. In paricular, he really went above and beyond with his work on The Tatami Galaxy wherein he not only (as far as I understood) did the bulk if not all the translation in that wordy/heavily-Japanese-culture-influenced show, but would also discuss in the MAL forums (and perhaps elsewhere, but I mainly found them on MAL) some intricacies to the show that perhaps might have been missed. He even posted some of his own theories as to what was going on and why Yuasa decided to show one thing instead of something else.

Anyway, I just really appreciated that a translator would go so in depth and have such discourse with those who were consuming his work. I hope that if another Noitamina show similarly strikes your fancy after Beezlebub ends then maybe again I'd love to see that interaction that I so rarely see nowadays.

Really looking forward to hearing more about that new project with Japanese companies about streaming older anime and trying a 'kickstarter' approach to have fans pledge to support a video release of that title. I'm not sure what restrictions will be behind it, but there are certainly quite a few titles that I would be willing to pledge my support to.
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samuelp



Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 1556
Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:07 am Reply with quote
Megiddo wrote:
Just want to say that I really appreciate Sam (Quarkboy's) role in getting the simulcasting subtitle process more streamlined and fo rmuch of the work he has done. In paricular, he really went above and beyond with his work on The Tatami Galaxy wherein he not only (as far as I understood) did the bulk if not all the translation in that wordy/heavily-Japanese-culture-influenced show, but would also discuss in the MAL forums (and perhaps elsewhere, but I mainly found them on MAL) some intricacies to the show that perhaps might have been missed. He even posted some of his own theories as to what was going on and why Yuasa decided to show one thing instead of something else.

Anyway, I just really appreciated that a translator would go so in depth and have such discourse with those who were consuming his work. I hope that if another Noitamina show similarly strikes your fancy after Beezlebub ends then maybe again I'd love to see that interaction so I so rarely see nowadays.

Really looking forward to hearing more about that new project with Japanese companies about streaming older anime and trying a 'kickstarter' approach to have fans pledge to support a video release of that title. I'm not sure what restrictions will be behind it, but there are certainly quite a few titles that I would be willing to pledge my support to.

I really wish I could mix it up in the Black Rock Shooter debates right now but I can't because I know all the answers...

I have to limit my discussions when I know spoilers, ESPECIALLY with original series that have no manga or LN that it's based on. I have a very "OMG, someone is wrong on the internet, I must correct them!" instinct which I have to keep under wraps lest I spoil entire series! It's rough, man.
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