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dragon695
Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Posts: 1100
Location: Clemson, SC
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 Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:57 pm |
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| Blood- wrote: | | dragon695 wrote: | | Blood- wrote: | | dragon695 wrote: | | Animerican14 wrote: | | .... Man, I'm kinda missing dtm_42, now. I'd think he'd really bring this thread back into equilibrium, or at least the thread would be less tiring to read through than... this. Hope to see him back in action by around the time the volume 3 review rolls around. |
Perhaps Zac might consider reducing his time in the penalty box? |
Don't even joke about it. And the idea that he could bring equilibrium to anything is hilariously stupid beyond belief. |
I disagree, but then again, I'm probably in the minority here. I thought his initial criticism of IS was spot on, though he sometimes lets his passion get out of control. What I don't understand is why he's any worse than Fencedude or MiB? I mean Fencedude went and attack somebody's son because the kid preferred DBZ to PMMM. |
Dude, you've been at ANN for what ... five minutes? Stick to something you may actually know about. I've seen dtm42 work his special "magic" in dozens and dozens of threads over the years. The guy is currently serving his THIRD banning and he has been post-moderated once. Mind you, I kind of understand why you are blind to his obvious short-comings, because what I've seen of you so far indicates you're kind of a tool, too. |
I guess it takes one to know one, right?  While I am certainly not an active participant in the forums for all that long, I am a long time reader of ANN.
Getting back to the series, it is because of dtm42 that I gave PMMM a chance, and boy am I glad I did. I tend to appreciate his taste in shows and willingness to take on the dishonest acclaim some works are given simply because they are larded up with gratuitous fanservice. Especially those treat the viewer like they are just a simpleton who only thinks with their crotch. I think for me, his line about "at least porn was being honest about its intentions" was quite profound as it relates to anime. Like I've said before, I enjoy hentai and have no problems with it, but I'm sick of non-hentai anime that does nothing but cock tease and pretend that there is more to it than that. I value non-hentai anime that doesn't try to arouse me sexually. Maybe I am expecting too much from anime, but hey, that's my opinion and I know you disagree.
But this is why I thought PMMM was so refreshing. Even with its very artistic approach, it could have just as easily been larded up with unnecessary fanservice (even in the guise of "metaphor") like Penguin Drum, but it didn't (any fanservice was quite subtle to non-existent). Not that I'm at all under the illusion that the studios aren't milking the hell out of the character designs with character goods and body pillows, but at least that is kept blessedly separate from the main attraction. Instead, we are taken on a fantastic ride, the likes of which I have not seen in a long time. And you could really focus on the story and meaning. It wasn't simply a vapid show filled with panty shots and boobs shoved in the camera or one that was filled with unnecessary pretentious obfuscation or some combination of the two (here's looking at you, Penguin Drum). I've since read dtm's commentary on this show and find it quite lucid, which is why I threw in my agreement to someone's suggestion that he would balance things out. Even if he's been in time-out before, surely the whole Infinite Stratos bruhaha has simmered down enough. |
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jl07045
Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Posts: 708
Location: Riga, Latvia
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:25 am |
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| dragon695 wrote: | | It wasn't simply a vapid show filled with panty shots and boobs shoved in the camera or one that was filled with unnecessary pretentious obfuscation or some combination of the two (here's looking at you, Penguin Drum). |
Welcome to Kunihiko Ikuhara. The pretense (as usually is in these cases) is in your head. I'd call it an extensive use of metaphors to illustrate the story. His visual creativity in telling his story made me much more interested in Mawaru than PMMM even though the plot is not as well put together. And fanservice was almost nonexistent. Actually, if my memory works, it had exactly two boobs less than PMMM (Kyoko's transformation, episode 9). |
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Fencedude5609
Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 3797
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:31 am |
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| jl07045 wrote: | | And fanservice was almost nonexistent. |
AHAHAHAHAHA
BWAAAAAAHAHAHAHHA
Now that is funny. No seriously. Funniest thing I've read all day.
PingDrum was absolutely saturated with sexuality and "fanservice", or do you think that the Princess of the Crystal was stripping for the hell of it? Well, she was, but...
Look, I don't think "fanservice" is an inherent negative, something that must always be looked down on, but to say that Madoka Magica has more fanservice than PingDrum is...just bizarre.
And since I mentioned this before, PingDrum was largely allegory, much of its visual flair was used on metaphor. A lot of what we see isn't "really" happening, its a metaphor for more mundane events (though the series setting is, of course, not mundane). Madoka, while certainly rich with Symbolism, doesn't use Metaphor for its events. Everything we see is actually happening, the characters see it exactly the way we do, and react as such. The same cannot necessarily be said for PingDrum, Utena or even Princess Tutu (though Tutu's a somewhat special case, due to the nature of its world). |
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jl07045
Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Posts: 708
Location: Riga, Latvia
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:42 am |
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| Fencedude5609 wrote: | | jl07045 wrote: | | And fanservice was almost nonexistent. |
AHAHAHAHAHA
BWAAAAAAHAHAHAHHA
Now that is funny. No seriously. Funniest thing I've read all day. |
There's that ridicule thing that you don't like in Zac's previews.
We're apparently working with different definitions of "fanservice", but I did not say that it had less of it than Madoka. I meant exactly what I said. |
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Fencedude5609
Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 3797
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:14 am |
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| jl07045 wrote: |
There's that ridicule thing that you don't like in Zac's previews. |
That is nothing at all like what Zac does in his previews.
| Quote: | | We're apparently working with different definitions of "fanservice", but I did not say that it had less of it than Madoka. I meant exactly what I said. |
What? This?
| Quote: | | Actually, if my memory works, it had exactly two boobs less than PMMM (Kyoko's transformation, episode 9). |
"fanservice" is much more than just nudity, and as magical girl transformation sequences go, all the ones in Madoka are incredibly tame.
This does make me wonder how much attention you paid to the SURVIVAL STRATEGY sequences. |
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jl07045
Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Posts: 708
Location: Riga, Latvia
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:33 am |
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| Fencedude5609 wrote: | | That is nothing at all like what Zac does in his previews. |
Agreed. I didn't say that it is. Your writing style is more offensive than his. Not that it matters apparently since I am still answering you.
| Quote: | "fanservice" is much more than just nudity, and as magical girl transformation sequences go, all the ones in Madoka are incredibly tame.
This does make me wonder how much attention you paid to the SURVIVAL STRATEGY sequences. |
For me "fanservice" is only intended sexual titillation (no matter whether naked boobs or just lifting a skirt) with no other purpose. It works well enough for me and doesn't confound people as much as wider definitions that often enough lead to labeling and flame wars. By my definition there are extremely few if any fanservice scenes in either title, including survival strategy, which was just another transformation sequence, though more aesthetically playful than the ones in Madoka.
In any case, this is not a topic for Mawaru, nor do I find it necessary to compare them much. |
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Keonyn
Moderator
Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 5186
Location: Coon Rapids, MN
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:41 am |
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Let's keep this to the topic on hand instead of why x hates y or what makes so and so evil and such. You want to hate on each other then stick to PM's and other channels where that's relevant, how users may feel about one another is not relevant to this topic. This is a large community and you aren't going to like or get along with everyone, but a certain degree of respect and tolerance is still expected, particularly if your personal issues with another user may start to derail the actual topic of discussion.
So let's get this back on target and avoid the feuds that have shown up in the past few pages. |
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Fencedude5609
Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 3797
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:38 pm |
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| jl07045 wrote: |
Agreed. I didn't say that it is. Your writing style is more offensive than his. Not that it matters apparently since I am still answering you. |
And I'm not the Executive Editor of ANN and not writing actual articles. I'm a random jackass on the forums.
| Quote: |
For me "fanservice" is only intended sexual titillation (no matter whether naked boobs or just lifting a skirt) with no other purpose. It works well enough for me and doesn't confound people as much as wider definitions that often enough lead to labeling and flame wars. By my definition there are extremely few if any fanservice scenes in either title, including survival strategy, which was just another transformation sequence, though more aesthetically playful than the ones in Madoka. |
So you brought it up...why? Precisely? |
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dragon695
Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Posts: 1100
Location: Clemson, SC
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:10 pm |
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| Fencedude5609 wrote: | | jl07045 wrote: |
Agreed. I didn't say that it is. Your writing style is more offensive than his. Not that it matters apparently since I am still answering you. |
And I'm not the Executive Editor of ANN and not writing actual articles. I'm a random jackass on the forums.
| Quote: |
For me "fanservice" is only intended sexual titillation (no matter whether naked boobs or just lifting a skirt) with no other purpose. It works well enough for me and doesn't confound people as much as wider definitions that often enough lead to labeling and flame wars. By my definition there are extremely few if any fanservice scenes in either title, including survival strategy, which was just another transformation sequence, though more aesthetically playful than the ones in Madoka. |
So you brought it up...why? Precisely? |
I think they were responding to my comment about what I liked about PMMM versus other artistic/deconstruction/subversion shows, like Penguin Drum.
I also feel that the pacing of the show is great and the number of episodes seemed just right. Also, I rather liked that I wasn't punished because I happened not to be paying close enough attention to the symbolic meaning of everything, the story was still easy to follow. I've never seen princess tutu, but if it is hard to follow like Penguin Drum, maybe that is why PMMM worked for more people? |
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Veers
Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Posts: 1163
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:28 pm |
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| Nah, I think Madoka is more similar to Tutu there, in that they are both much easier to follow / less esoteric than Penguindrum. Or at least there is enough layering to them that you don't need to look for symbolic meaning for everything to follow the story and get something out of it, compared to Penguindrum where, as you said, things wouldn't feel very coherent if you didn't pay close attention to the symbolism. |
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Animerican14
Joined: 19 Aug 2006
Posts: 624
Location: Truman State University, N-E MO
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:13 pm |
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Hmmm... going back to the something in Zac's review:
| Zac wrote: |
There are, again, a few strange localization choices – this time during some particularly important scenes. During one of her many scenes where she's justifying her decision to save lives, Sayaka says she'll stop anyone who's trying to hurt people. In the subtitles, she says she'll stop them “even if they happen to be magical girls”, but in the dub, she says “especially if they're magical girls”. This changes her motivation and it isn't clear why that choice was made; for a show that absolutely lives and dies based on what comes out of its characters mouths, fiddling with the dialogue during moments like that should've been verboten. Those changes don't help anything and only serve to confuse. |
Now I had already adressed some of this at the start of the thread, and I still stand by what I said...
| I, myself, wrote: | | Actually, I think this little change on the part of the localization is very much in line with Sayaka's character-- why, it seems to make a certain character trait of hers all the more noticeable. With the emphasis of "especially if they happen to be magical girls," I think the point is more powerfully made home that Sayaka will never let anyone get in the way of her dishing out of "justice." If a magical girl happens to be in her way or causing harm to others in front of her eyes, such a magical girl would to Sayaka essentially be a traitor to the cause for good, and thus Sayaka would likely feel more personal anger, even hatred, towards such a person that has more or less completely "given up" on fighting the so-called Good Fight than some monstrous Witch. |
... but now, I'm thinking-- what other changes might Zac be thinking of, alterations that "confused?" Viewing the four episodes dubbed without subtitles, even a few days of seeing them subbed again, everything felt fine. But now, after comparing the subtitle script and the dub lines for some individual scenes of episode 8 way to many times, so much as to make (quite sadly) half-sick of the Sayaka/bus stop scene and the Sayaka/train station scene, I'm wondering if I've noticed any of those alterations. For example, at the bus stop...
Sub Sayaka: You can’t give up being human just out of a little pity, can you?
Dub Sayaka: You won’t even give up your humanity out of pity for a friend!
Sub Madoka: Pity…? That’s not…
Dub Madoka: It’s not that I won’t, I just….
In the original script, in her rhetorical question, it seems that Sayaka is suggesting that Madoka only has a little pity on Sayaka, or that a "little pity" isn't enough for one to give up their humanity, while Madoka's reply is... well, admittedly cut a bit short. But, seeing these subtitles & another version of subtitles, it's my understanding that she denies pity... but what wouldn't be pity? Her feelings for Sayaka, or that pity wouldn't be a basis for a sacrifice of her humanity or helping her out? (I'm not too sure.)
In the dub script, Sayaka's line is less rhetorical and more declarative and accusatory, with the "pity for a friend" seeming to imply a stronger kind of pity, but... dang, is her meaning really all that different from whatever's been conveyed original script? (I was starting this paragraph thinking that there was some more of a semantic difference, but I can't find the words to describe it). And then there's Madoka's dub line, which is also cut short but instead of it having to do with pity, there's the phrase "It's not that I won't, I just.... Is she trying to say that she would save her, but it wouldn't be out of pity? (If so, then I guess that would match up with one interpretation of her line in the subtitle script...) Or is there some other interpretation I'm supposed to be getting out of this line, that might be different? Heck, was there really any intended alteration here besides to just have enough words/syllables to match the mouth-flaps?
Darn... I'm pretty sure I'm over thinking this. Am I? Is this merely "small fry" in terms of "interesting localization decisions" on the disc where there was some confusing meaning found between the dub script and the sub script? There were a few other lines that I was thinking of addressing here, like Sayaka crying out in the dub that "I'm hopelessly stupid" instead of "You can't save me/ I'm beyond saving" or the dub's choice of phrasing the equivalency aspect as "good and bad" zeroing each other out (instead of phrasing the concept as "hope and despair" balancing each other out), but those might present too little of a semantic difference (if really a difference at all) in the context of the episode/show itself to have discussion over. I don't really want to go back through episodes 5-7 anytime soon, or else I might start to get sick of those episodes too, at least for now... have you guys noticed anything noteworthy script wise? Furthermore-- speaking as one that admittedly hasn't seen a great variety of dubs-- is anything about the little changes here, or the bits of changes we've seen through the Madoka dub overall, "special" among dubs?
Or was the only other "interesting localization decision" the hosts-on-the trains-scene? Because I was generally fine with that.... however, interestingly, the script makes it seem that one of the two guys talking is indeed "Sho," whereas the dub seems to imply that Sho is some guy that is not present on the train. I caught "Sho" at the very end of the conversation before Sayaka cut in, so nothing really came of it, but still... |
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dragon695
Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Posts: 1100
Location: Clemson, SC
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:26 am |
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| Animerican14 wrote: | | Or is there some other interpretation I'm supposed to be getting out of this line, that might be different? |
I can't say for sure, not having a great memory, but given the two translations, she's probably using the ~ne (as in neighbor) sentence ender. If I had to guess, I would say that the dub script was translated separately from the subtitle script. The reason I say that is because how you interpret ~ne depends a lot on context and tone. Both translations (rhetorical and emphatic) would be technically correct if you did a straight translation. Even if it wasn't ~ne, the same problem can crop up just about anywhere in Japanese. To further illustrate this point, you need only look to the lines with ellipses. I can't tell you how frustrating that is, because that usually indicates the person dropped half the sentence from the dialogue (which they assume the listener can divine on their own). Oh how the Japanese love to do this, I can't even begin to tell you. Which means you have to figure out what is being left out in order to figure out what is actually being said. So yeah, if my assumption about the scripts being translated by different people is true, this kind of disparity is not surprising. Maybe I'm grinding too fine of a point here and there is a more reasonable explanation, but that's how I see it. |
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maaya
Joined: 14 Oct 2007
Posts: 976
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:17 am |
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| Animerican14 wrote: |
Sub Sayaka: You can’t give up being human just out of a little pity, can you?
Dub Sayaka: You won’t even give up your humanity out of pity for a friend!
Sub Madoka: Pity…? That’s not…
Dub Madoka: It’s not that I won’t, I just…. |
Sayaka's tone is accusatory. While the sub translation is literally correct (there is no "little" actually, but I suppose it is used to underline the "only out of pity" part), the rhetorical question is used to imply an "of course, you won't". And Madoka denies having "pity", I suppose in opposition to "friendship". Her line certainly leaves room for interpretation.
| Quote: | | the script makes it seem that one of the two guys talking is indeed "Sho," whereas the dub seems to imply that Sho is some guy that is not present on the train. I caught "Sho" at the very end of the conversation before Sayaka cut in, so nothing really came of it, but still... |
In Japanese you often talk about and directly to a person by using his or her name only. Therefore unless you know the names beforehand you pretty much cannot tell only by the words whether somebody is talking to the one next to him or about a third person. From the scene here I'm sure Sho is one of the two guys, because I don't know why they would introduce an absent, named third person for such minor characters, but in theory both interpretations are possible ... and it really doesn't matter xD
From my experience, such changes are really nothing special in translation ... on the contrary, sometimes they change much more. And there is always the personal interpretation of the translator also influencing the work. |
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Veers
Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Posts: 1163
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:44 am |
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| Quote: | | I don't really want to go back through episodes 5-7 anytime soon, or else I might start to get sick of those episodes too, at least for now... have you guys noticed anything noteworthy script wise? Furthermore-- speaking as one that admittedly hasn't seen a great variety of dubs-- is anything about the little changes here, or the bits of changes we've seen through the Madoka dub overall, "special" among dubs? |
I think maaya already provided pretty much the same answer I would have for your question about Sayaka's bus stop line and the open-endedness of Madoka's line.
Basically the English dub line as you quoted it is, to me, carrying a completely different nuance where Sayaka is implying Madoka should give up her humanity because of what Sayaka thinks is pity (as in, she's offended that Madoka is not following through on what Sayaka sees as pity), whereas I think in the original line Sayaka is not implying that at all.
I think the original line can be looked at as having three layers of meaning:
A) Sayaka means that she is insulted that Madoka would consider becoming a magical girl out of pity for Sayaka (Sayaka is proud, she does not want to be pitied)
B) Sayaka is taking a spiteful shot at Madoka (which she immediately regrets at the end of that scene), because she is considering the inherent worth of her (now lost) humanity and projecting her (and Kyoko's) own selfishness onto Madoka and doesn't expect Madoka to value Sayaka over Madoka's own humanity (remember, Sayaka just got finished with some rather self-depreciating dialog--she thinks she's a lost cause)
C) Sayaka is also making a bitter comment about her own self and her former ignorance and her decision to ignore Mami's warning and make a wish that might have been tinged with pity (look where it got her--Sayaka is well aware that Madoka is not clueless as to what's been going on).
As for the rest of the localization changes, I'll have to get back to you on that. I haven't actually watched my BD yet because I started watching Breaking Bad a couple weeks ago and I can't put it down because it's awesome. |
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Chagen46
Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Posts: 3079
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:29 am |
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To me, Sayaka is saying something like "You bitch, you can't even give up your humanity to help me through this, even when kyubey said you're way more powerful."
After all, I'm almost certain that Sayaka said that she knew that she was not very high up on the magical girl power scale, so she's pissed that the person who is (Madoka) isn't out there fighting and is simply moping. It's a "you're so damn powerful, why don't YOU fix this shit? I'm out here busting my ass, watching my wish and life fall to pieces, while you get to sit around and do nothing despite having so much potential."
Basically, Sayaka said "Screw you" to Madoka.
This is a rather pessimistic/aggressive interpretation, though. I think the dub line fits. |
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