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Hey, Answerman! - Phony Baloney

First things first: I don't think you can tell people what they "get" to have an opinion on. How it works is that people have opinions, and you decide whether they're valid to your discussion or not. You can't stop people from thinking what they think about things, or adding their two cents to the discussion.

Timeenforceranubis wrote:

Question: If moé is a subculture word, and the subculture is what we're discussing, why does that matter at all? Even past that, what about being a subculture word means it no longer has the right to exist?

Whay does what matter? I did not say that it has no right to exist. We're talking about language here, even if I were to think that way, it would still just be me not using that word. But the fact is that there are quite a lot of meanings floating around and a ton of conversations are one side hating on "moe" and other side saying "that's not what moe means". Even when we get down to a simple conversation and someone says: "This girl is moe". What is he actually saying? Obviously it boils down to: "I like her". But beyond that? Is she just cute, does he want to hug her, protect her, do kinky stuff with her, does he love her? And is it an attribute that the character has or simply an impression someone gets from the scene or image? Is that word used as a noun or an adjective? You've established a definition of the word so I would probably know exactly what you're trying to say the next time you use it, but what about the next guy? Does he have his own definition?

The bottom line is that I see that word needlessly complicating things. Without using it I can evade semantic detours and flame wars and talk about characters themselves or what I like about them and be sure that my conversational partner understands me well enough.

First things first: I don't think you can tell people what they "get" to have an opinion on. How it works is that people have opinions, and you decide whether they're valid to your discussion or not. You can't stop people from thinking what they think about things, or adding their two cents to the discussion.

I've never had a conversation with another moé fan where we failed to understand each other because of our use of the word moé. The only time the necessity for a hard definition has come up is when I've spoken with people who are against moé, notably those who've not watched much "moé anime" to begin with.

Mohawk52 wrote:

Then what is the point of having them appear and act moe then if it's not a "moe anime"? BTW to consider Asuka, and Rei as moe is a stretch too far for me.

Honestly, it can be argued that Rei and Asuka were two of the characters who were instrumental in starting the whole moe thing. Before them, there wasn't much of a market for making figurines of female characters or trying to sell a late night anime through the use of cute girls... but after Evangelion showed how successful you could sell a show by promoting its female characters, the flood gates opened.

Plus, Rei basically created the "Emotionless moe" archetype that is pretty prominent these days.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReiAyanamiExpy

RyanSaotome wrote:

Mohawk52 wrote: Then what is the point of having them appear and act moe then if it's not a "moe anime"? BTW to consider Asuka, and Rei as moe is a stretch too far for me. Honestly, it can be argued that Rei and Asuka were two of the characters who were instrumental in starting the whole moe thing. Before them, there wasn't much of a market for making figurines of female characters or trying to sell a late night anime through the use of cute girls... but after Evangelion showed how successful you could sell a show by promoting its female characters, the flood gates opened. Plus, Rei basically created the "Emotionless moe" archetype that is pretty prominent these days. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReiAyanamiExpy

The term "moe" orginally meant "a feeling of affectionate aww toward something cute, and cuddley", eg. a baby human, or kitten, puppy, rabbit, hamster, panda, etc. It was Kyo-Ani, as I saw it, that started the "moe" engine running. with Kanon, Air, and later Clannad. I guess with a bit of 20-20 hind sight we could try and back fit this to other past characters before Kanon, hell going by your, or the now excepted (but not by me) definition, Yuri and Kei from Dirty Pair would be "moe". How far can one go back? Regardless it doesn't necessarily make it so.

Moe was always kinda significant, it was just called by a different word in the American fanbase. Kyo Ani turned it into the juggernaut it is now,

..... but to deny it existed is silly.

As has been said before, the term is still evolving. The concept has been around for a long time, but it's only had a name for so long. Notice how these lengthy debates around a definition of moé never pop up in discussions made up only of moé fans (At least, as far as I've seen). I think the moé fanbase has the right idea in simply discussing the phenomenon and allowing the term to grow into its own naturally, rather than clamouring for a hard definition.

Anyway, we now have a definition of moe:

Moe mow-eh adj.

1. Literally undefinable as nerds cannot agree on the true meaning of it, believing that because the word is describing a subjective emotion that means the definition of it must also be completely subjective

2. Forums gasoline

Moe mow-eh adj.

1. Literally undefinable as nerds cannot agree on the true meaning of it, believing that because the word is describing a subjective emotion that means the definition of it must also be completely subjective

2. Forums gasoline

Zac wrote:

Moe mow-eh adj. 1. Literally undefinable as nerds cannot agree on the true meaning of it, believing that because the word is describing a subjective emotion that means the definition of it must also be completely subjective 2. Forums gasoline

I'm quite capable of defining moe, the fact that a certain segment (who claims to not like moe, generally) doesn't like the definition is an entirely different issue.

It may even undergo semantic drift--I would not be surprised if "moë" merely means "cute" 20-50 years from now. Such is the way of loanwords.