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REVIEW: Lupin III: The Woman Called Fujiko Mine


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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:02 am Reply with quote
Ojamajo LimePie wrote:
Fujiko is in full control of her sexuality. Nobody tells her what to do with her body. That's a very feminist idea. Don't be slut shaming, dtm.


It's a feminist idea, but not a feminist issue. Not a feminist theme. Not in this series.

Well, not in my opinion.

To expand on that, I agree with you that Fujiko is in control of her body and she ain't afraid to flaunt it. But the series doesn't make Fujiko's sexuality a theme or anything like that, it simply uses it for sex appeal. Well, actually that ain't quite true. It's treated as a matter-of-fact; it's who she is. But there still ain't anything more to it.
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jsc315



Joined: 09 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:01 am Reply with quote
Ojamajo LimePie wrote:
Fujiko is in full control of her sexuality. Nobody tells her what to do with her body. That's a very feminist idea. Don't be slut shaming, dtm.


Also I would like to point out she uses her sexuality and her body as kind of a tool to get the job done. This has been a staple in the franchise since the character was introduced back in the 70s.
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Juno016



Joined: 09 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:09 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
But the series doesn't make Fujiko's sexuality a theme or anything like that, it simply uses it for sex appeal. Well, actually that ain't quite true. It's treated as a matter-of-fact; it's who she is. But there still ain't anything more to it.


Kinda reminds me of the fanservice/nudity in evangelion, to a point. It's there, and while it definitely felt somewhat pointless or pandering, I don't think it wasn't fitting. The show made it feel like it FIT there. Somehow, this nudity worked, whether or not I cared for it myself. Nothing more, nothing less.

And having read some of the previous Lupin manga, it's not like it wasn't something they simply decided to add to the anime. She's always been like that. The manga hasn't always been so serious and dark, but it still felt fitting for this particular anime.
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Myaow



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:53 am Reply with quote
I thought that there were a ton of feminist messages in "Fujiko", and that even the huge amount of nudity worked towards one of these. Surrender Artist made a good point a page back:

Quote:
I'm not good at this literary analysis rigamarole, but having spoiler[Fujiko's thieving and casual sex be not the products of Aisha's programming so that she could live vicariously though Fujiko], besides being a fun sucker-punch to our expectations, seemed to make a statement about the validity and independence of Fujiko's choices in life by making them something that were part of her, not features imposed by a controlling authority.


I think that the point of all the sex in the show was to raise questions of agency: is Fujiko obsessed with crime and sex because spoiler[she is trying to regain some sense of control after being assaulted by the creepy owl dudes in her childhood] (allowing these men to influence her actions and control her, in a remote way) or spoiler[because it was literally programmed into her like a machine] or what? In the end, as Surrender Artist states, spoiler[Fujiko declares that her deviancy is all her own preference and her own choice, asserting her agency over her own life.] So the sex, in the end, is all about power and control, and who holds it.

The same ideas pervade the rest of the series, too: so many episodes feature women who take control of situations in which they are expected to be powerless at the hands of men. dtm mentions the opera house episode. While certainly one can read the story as spoiler[successful woman gives up career, wealth to be with husband], one might also read it as spoiler[a play on the Leroux/Lloyd Webber "Phantom of the Opera" story, where instead of being alternately abducted and rescued by men, the heroine actively CHOOSES how she wants to live her life and refuses to let outside forces (her meddling family, norms of conventional beauty) control her.] Actually, there's a neat article at Violence Jill's Room that outlines more of these "ladies take control of literary damsel-in-distress situations" narratives, so I will just link you to that.

I'd also like to mention the Hot Springs/Living Painting episode-- though I thought it was one of the weaker episodes, it really emphasizes the power struggle central to this series. Fujiko cannot spoiler[bear to see a woman who has literally become an object for (male) people's enjoyment-- as it reminds her of her childhood-- and she rashly decides that it would be better for that woman to die than to keep living like she is.] It's clear that this murderous decision is a foolish one (spoiler[and that by deciding what's best for this woman, Fujiko is participating in robbing her of her own agency just like her male abusers!]) but it serves to throw a spotlight onto the series' anthem of "control".

dtm may be completely right in saying that this power struggle between the sexes is a "Fujiko" issue, not an "all women ever" issue, but I feel like it really participates in the discussion of how women are/should be portrayed in literature. (I think this is especially clear due to the massive amount of literary references in the series.) NO women in "Fujiko" are simply powerless damsels, love interests or defined by their relationships to men: Fujiko's male owl abuser spoiler[is a woman!] The owl henchman who enables said abuser's cruelty spoiler[is a woman!] And in fact spoiler[they have never had any power over what Fujiko does or doesn't do to begin with!] I think it's interesting to think about and very deliberate, though of course others will have different readings. Surrender Artist may also be correct in applying "Fujiko"'s message to real-life women, who may feel like spoiler[the media is trying to brainwash them to look and perform a certain way, sexually]; in this case, "Fujiko" argues that in the end, only YOU decide how you want to live.

Uuuuugggghhhhh I'm sorry I rambled so long and that my reasoning is so convoluted. I just really like this show and I think it has so much to say!
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Surrender Artist



Joined: 01 May 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:47 pm Reply with quote
You articulated a lot of what I was thinking Myaow, but hadn't quite made sense of or didn't feel up to expressing.

So it's nice to know that even if I'm in a crazyboat, there's at least one other passenger with me. That'll be convenient for when we've drifted far from sanity's shores and one of us has to eat the other. Since I fancy myself a gentlemen, of course so might you, for all I know, thus I volunteer to be cannibalized.

I still don't feel all that sure about what I'm thinking, but the ending seemed so calculatingly flip that it must have had a point besides ha-HA! Historically, at least in the west, female sexuality has been suppressed and stigmatized. For example: The vibrator has a fascinating history: it was conceived as an ostensible medical device to replace prescription handjobs for ‘hysterical’ women, but as recreational use of it among the unrefined working class class rose, that pretense became unsustainable. As such, the vibrator fell out of favor for nearly half of a century. Women wanting and enjoying sex has a long tradition of being frowned up, even held in contempt. (I think that Oscar represented some of that, but just what was going with him is above my pay grade for now) Women employed in sexual trades, namely prostitution or stripping, even if they are not directly shamed, are said to have had ‘terrible fathers’ or ‘daddy issues’, which implicitly puts their sexuality back in the control of a man, thus denying them control and independence. A woman who likes or is comfortable employing sex must be damaged or faulty.

In Lupin III ~The Woman Called Fujiko Mine~ we are led to expect that in the spoiler[end her promiscuity is the byproduct of past abuse, but in fact that is rebuked]. In fact the idea is show to be a sort of self-serving delusion by a person in a position of control. Fujiko, as it turned out, was spoiler[the same as she always had been, just burdened with some false memories that taunted her, and played to the expectations of the audience, with the idea that she was somehow broken].

Myaow wrote:
Actually, there's a neat article at Violence Jill's Room that outlines more of these "ladies take control of literary damsel-in-distress situations" narratives, so I will just link you to that.


Thanks for linking to that; I had been thinking of trying to introduce that into discussion. There is a second article and a third article that continue on the same theme.


Last edited by Surrender Artist on Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:28 pm; edited 3 times in total
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configspace



Joined: 16 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:23 pm Reply with quote
Surrender Artist wrote:
Historically, at least in the west, female sexuality has been suppressed and stigmatized. For example: The vibrator has a fascinating history: it was conceived as an ostensible medical device to replace prescription handjobs for ‘hysterical’ women, but as recreational use of it among the unrefined working class class rose, that pretense became unsustainable. As such, the vibrator fell out of favor for nearly half of a century. Women wanting and enjoying sex has a long tradition of being frowned up, even held in contempt. (I think that Oscar represented some of that, but just what was going with him is above my pay grade for now) Women employed in sexual trades, namely prostitution or stripping, even if they are not directly shamed, are said to have had ‘terrible fathers’ or ‘daddy issues’, which implicitly puts their sexuality back in the control of a man, thus denying them control and independence. A woman who likes or is comfortable employing sex must be damaged or faulty.

The interesting, if not ironic thing is that the situation is completely reversed for Japan's history.
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:02 pm Reply with quote
Surrender Artist wrote:
Women wanting and enjoying sex has a long tradition of being frowned up, even held in contempt. (I think that Oscar represented some of that, but just what was going with him is above my pay grade for now) Women employed in sexual trades, namely prostitution or stripping, even if they are not directly shamed, are said to have had ‘terrible fathers’ or ‘daddy issues’, which implicitly puts their sexuality back in the control of a man, thus denying them control and independence. A woman who likes or is comfortable employing sex must be damaged or faulty.


This always strikes me as a very problematic issue. I mean, I agree with it in theory. On the other hand though, I can't help but find it ultimately rings rather hollow in practice. When you look at women working as strippers, or even more so prostitutes, in the real world, it overwhelmingly does not seem to be because they're empowered, independent women. To the contrary, it usually is because they're some combination of damaged and desperate. I'm sure this isn't universally the case of course but still. We obviously want to dispel these negative connotations surrounding female sexuality but it's a bit tough to argue with the stigma surrounding those professions.

Certainly an interesting point though.
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dandelion_rose



Joined: 12 May 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:14 pm Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
Surrender Artist wrote:
Women wanting and enjoying sex has a long tradition of being frowned up, even held in contempt. (I think that Oscar represented some of that, but just what was going with him is above my pay grade for now) Women employed in sexual trades, namely prostitution or stripping, even if they are not directly shamed, are said to have had ‘terrible fathers’ or ‘daddy issues’, which implicitly puts their sexuality back in the control of a man, thus denying them control and independence. A woman who likes or is comfortable employing sex must be damaged or faulty.


This always strikes me as a very problematic issue. I mean, I agree with it in theory. On the other hand though, I can't help but find it ultimately rings rather hollow in practice. When you look at women working as strippers, or even more so prostitutes, in the real world, it overwhelmingly does not seem to be because they're empowered, independent women. To the contrary, it usually is because they're some combination of damaged and desperate. I'm sure this isn't universally the case of course but still. We obviously want to dispel these negative connotations surrounding female sexuality but it's a bit tough to argue with the stigma surrounding those professions.

Certainly an interesting point though.


Generally feminist discourse on professional sex work is quite divided. Even the people involved in the work seem to be quite divided. On the one hand, there are those who believe that the work is pretty degrading and dangerous, and that it is a place for the 'damaged and desperate'. On the other, there are plenty in the line of work who also feel that social stigmatization of what they do -- and that some of them are in it out of personal choice -- makes it harder for them to live and get by.

Now, I'll try not to derail Lupin threads into feminist stuff too much, so --

Surrender Artist wrote:
I really want to see more of Sayo Yamamoto's work, both her past series, Michiko e Hatchin and more from her in the future. She's a relatively new, quite considerable talent and a woman, I think that she represents something that the Japanese animation industry, a sometimes sclerotic boy's club, could benefit from.


I was interested in her since I found out that she was on the storyboard team for Galaxy Angel. While that probably doesn't mean much to most, being a bit of a GA fan I tend to trace the careers of everyone involved in Galaxy Angel anime. I think comedy is very difficult to do well and I think the team behind it must have been pretty smart. The script is obviously GA's highest point (to me) but it wouldn't have been executed well if the storyboarding was crap.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:18 pm Reply with quote
Keonyn wrote:
[Mod Reply: Well, while Okada's track record may be relevant, people were seeing the particular mention of your dislike of her track record as cause to discuss those series' she has done that you don't like instead of Lupin. The comments had to go since just telling people to discuss Lupin as the thread is intended wasn't getting through. - Keonyn]


Fair enough. I'm still not happy about it since the posts themselves were not the problem, but I'll respect your decision to remove them.


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Illusionary_Systems



Joined: 18 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:21 pm Reply with quote
Surrender Artist wrote:
I really want to see more of Sayo Yamamoto's work, both her past series, Michiko e Hatchin and more from her in the future. She's a relatively new, quite considerable talent and a woman, I think that she represents something that the Japanese animation industry, a sometimes sclerotic boy's club, could benefit from.

It is my honest opinion that the animation industry needs people like her. Things can easily get stale otherwise.

Surrender Artist wrote:
I found myself little troubled by the rampant nudity. I think that this was largely because it mostly lacked the *tee-hee* sneak-a-pic PEERRRRRRRVVEERRRRT *slap* puerility and humiliation of more conventional fanservice. It was still exploitative, of course, but not in a demeaning, Porky's style. I almost wonder if Sayo Yamamoto and Marik Okada were trying to bludgeon the sexualization of breasts out of us.

The nudity is more confrontational. It's nudity used in a mature manner. I suppose that comes across rather strong to those familiar with the, arguably more juvenile, style of conventional fanservice. Fanservice that is very much a product of that animation industry's boy-club you mention.

acejem wrote:
Main problem with Mari Okada? She seems to put in random fetish material, namely randomly emasculating characters making them joke characters, in particular putting them in a drag.
Goemon didn't feel particularly spoiler[emasculated. Simply putting someone in clothing associated with the opposite sex doesn't automatically compromise their gender identity. He was going around the fairgrounds cutting anything in his path, as per usual, ignoring the fact that he was dressed as Fujiko. in short, it was not emasculating as Goemon's self identification as male was not compromised.]
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Animerican14



Joined: 19 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:24 pm Reply with quote
Aww, a few whole pages of bickering about a tangential/off-topic conversation were cut out? That would've been entertaining to read, as much as I might've face palmed as it went on. Foo.

Anyway, I finally got around to seeing the final two episodes this evening. And, I'm kinda glad that I did, not knowing before hand that was a two-parter! Happy to see Rebecca Silverman share my positive thoughts on it. I heard, or thought I heard, ANNCast (or Zac, specifically?) recently suggested that the ending of the series was "bad" or "terrible" going by what the "fans" were saying, and Justin basically outed this series from his (figurative) to-watch list as a result of such criticism. It was nice to see that wasn't the case for me as I saw the ending with my own eyes... though I think first indication that things turned out well overall was given by the brief summary of the review at the side-bar. Wink

I'm not too sure if I got a significantly improved understanding of the OP lyrics after listening to them again after the episode 13 credits, though; I thought I got them alright after several episodes in.... though I guess you definitely get more context for them, having just seen the final relevant pieces of the Fujiko puzzle come together. And furthermore about that OP... that was narrated by an elderly woman? For some reason, I had always told myself that was Fujiko's seiyuu doing the narration, but just with a deliberately older-sounding tone of voice. This makes me wonder about how FUNI will do the dub of the OP, then-- the narrator and Fujiko herself didn't sound all too different to me, just differnt performances for different roles.

Enjoy seeing your commentary, Myaow and Surrender Artist. Together, both of you (and maybe some others) expressed and elaborated on thoughts that I myself might've expressed. Sadly, I think the English major in me has been taking a bit of a break, ever since simultaneously watching and analyzing both the Apocalypse Saga and film version of Revolutionary Girl Utena these past few weeks, so I don't feel like writing much beyond how things happened on the surface level. It also takes the motivation out of me in analyzing when blogs like "Violence Jill's Room" have done such a darn good job of doing it... that blog in particular has made me look at The Woman Called Fujiko Mine in a more intellectual light as I watched it, that's for certain.
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TheZeonicFront



Joined: 20 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:00 am Reply with quote
I love how you can go to little subsections of the Internet and fine wildly different opinions on shows.

This show is the best anime to come out in years. People have personal hangups with the scriptwriter? People let such petty things cloud their judgement on good shows/movies/books. Pretty pathetic.
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ABCBTom



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:07 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
Regarding Fujiko and feminism, I totally disagree with you here. Those episodes were not supposed to be thought-provoking at all, let alone from a feminist point of view. And Fujiko is no Utena, not even in the same arm of the galaxy.

Episode one: Fujiko spends most of the episode topless, uses sex appeal to get what she wants. That's not "bringing issues of ... sexuality ... into the series". That's just Fujiko using her body to appeal to her adversaries and especially the audience. Sex appeal is a different thing than actually attempting to make a statement about human sexuality.


You're looking at things too literally, and not metaphorically. The Utena comparison is valid, not just because of the gender issues, but also due to the amount of symbolism and surrealism the series uses as well.

Episodes 1 and 4 subvert tropes in women's literature. spoiler[Episode 6 turns the MariMite genre on its head. Episode 9 deals with a woman who has been literally commodified and abstracted as an art object.]

The final story arc is in no way a cheat. spoiler[It just subverts the idea that a woman must have some kind of "trauma" to justify being selfish or "slutty". Furthermore, it takes on the idea that women will often perpetuate cruel systems that men imposed on them. That's an extremely valid observation, and it's keeping with the subversive tone of the entire series.]
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Surrender Artist



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:09 pm Reply with quote
configspace wrote:
The interesting, if not ironic thing is that the situation is completely reversed for Japan's history.


I don't know enough about Japanese sexual history to say. I wonder if there's been some unfortunate importation of western sexual norms. Perhaps this will make the series mean different things on different sides of the pacific. Hah! Lupin III ~The Woman Called Fujiko Mine~ might succeed where Serial Experiments Lain failed!

dandelion_rose wrote:
ikillchicken wrote:
This always strikes me as a very problematic issue. I mean, I agree with it in theory. On the other hand though, I can't help but find it ultimately rings rather hollow in practice. When you look at women working as strippers, or even more so prostitutes, in the real world, it overwhelmingly does not seem to be because they're empowered, independent women. To the contrary, it usually is because they're some combination of damaged and desperate. I'm sure this isn't universally the case of course but still. We obviously want to dispel these negative connotations surrounding female sexuality but it's a bit tough to argue with the stigma surrounding those professions.

Certainly an interesting point though.


Generally feminist discourse on professional sex work is quite divided. Even the people involved in the work seem to be quite divided. On the one hand, there are those who believe that the work is pretty degrading and dangerous, and that it is a place for the 'damaged and desperate'. On the other, there are plenty in the line of work who also feel that social stigmatization of what they do -- and that some of them are in it out of personal choice -- makes it harder for them to live and get by.


I think that where I run into immediate trouble with what ikillchicken is arguing is that it feels like it should be in some part an empirical claim, but I'm not sure how to approach it as such. I've never met a prostitute or stripper, although I've been told that some members of my high school class became stripper, so I can't even go from anecdote. I'm inclined to think that there's a serious possibility that we're dealing with a powerful cultural myth that might have some truth because only because it has been so strongly reinforced for so long, not because there is a true causal link between abuse and sex work to explains the career choices of strippers and prostitutes. Even if what I'm suggesting might be a cultural myth is true, that might be only part of the way to understanding things with the rest coming from unpacking the mechanism of why damaged women end up as sex workers. (I wonder, is there a parallel holding for male strippers?)

Strip clubs and brothels almost surely are often awful places (I believe that there is some research supporting this, but my gin & tonic says, "why bother digging that up?"), but that seems to be a different phenomenon.

dandelion_rose wrote:
Now, I'll try not to derail Lupin threads into feminist stuff too much...


Oh, don't worry; I think that it pretty relevant to the subject. Besides, I think it's vital that somebody other than men contribute to these conversations. There's something that makes me uneasy about discussions of the problems of sexism undertaken by a group predominantly composed of men, no matter how seemingly enlightened or well-intended they might be.

dandelion_rose wrote:
I was interested in her since I found out that she was on the storyboard team for Galaxy Angel. While that probably doesn't mean much to most, being a bit of a GA fan I tend to trace the careers of everyone involved in Galaxy Angel anime. I think comedy is very difficult to do well and I think the team behind it must have been pretty smart. The script is obviously GA's highest point (to me) but it wouldn't have been executed well if the storyboarding was crap.


I really need to get to those Galaxy Angel series; they're still pretty easy to get now (well, I don't know about Galaxy Angel Rune, but nobody needs to know about that), but I shouldn't take too many chances. Oh, so many things to do...

Sayo Yamamoto also made substantial contributions to Samurai Champloo. I wasn't enamored of that series, but it is a visually impressive and has a lot going for it. (I just couldn't stand Mugen) Ben Ettinger has cited episode eighteen of that, which was, fittingly, written by Dai Sato, as an exceptional example of her direction. (It speaks well of her to me that Shinichirō Watanabe seems to have made some of a protege out of her. I'm surprised to see so little note that he is credited with music production for Lupin III ~The Woman Called Fujiko Mine~, as he was for Michiko e Hatchin)

Illusionary_Systems wrote:
The nudity is more confrontational. It's nudity used in a mature manner. I suppose that comes across rather strong to those familiar with the, arguably more juvenile, style of conventional fanservice. Fanservice that is very much a product of that animation industry's boy-club you mention.


"Confrontational," seems like a good way to put it. One scene that amuses me more in retrospect is at the end of episode four when Goemon flays Fujiko's clothes off of her with his sword. Even though he's just stripped her naked, he ends up seeming like the embarrassed one. It's a simple reversal, but the reactions turned a standard anime trope that's bothered me for a while now around on my expectations. Throughout the series, Fujiko wasn't generally show as unaware, surprised or compromised even if she was being shown in a awy associated with exploitation.

ABCBTom wrote:
The final story arc is in no way a cheat. spoiler[It just subverts the idea that a woman must have some kind of "trauma" to justify being selfish or "slutty". Furthermore, it takes on the idea that women will often perpetuate cruel systems that men imposed on them. That's an extremely valid observation, and it's keeping with the subversive tone of the entire series.]


That succinctly puts the idea that I've been tentatively meandering toward.
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RapidEyeMovement



Joined: 11 May 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:48 pm Reply with quote
Just finished the series last night. First I loved how unexpected the ending was, then hated it and felt like it was a trick. Now I still think it was a gigantic middle-finger to the audience, but maybe it was a good thing after all.

At first I thought spoiler[Fujiko's traumatic past went a long way toward humanizing her. That having her realize she was made that way by male oppression, but deciding to keep that part of herself, would be empowering while also raising questions of nature vs. nuture and internalized misogyny.] That the spoiler["I've always been this way so screw you, EMPOWERED SLUTTINESS FOREVER"] ending rendered the whole series moot.



Then I wondered why the ending made me so uncomfortable. ABCBTom hit the nail on the head. It was the same feeling I had during Revolutionary Girl Utena, when spoiler[we find out the bad things Anthy is capable of. Maybe I've been too eager to cast those female characters as victims, ignoring their moral grey areas.(Just to be clear I mean things like killing people, not having sex.)] And hey, spoiler["strong female characters" being broken inside by sexual abuse] is getting to be an ugly cliche these days. On the other hand, the ending feels extremely unsatisfying as a story because spoiler[ if all of Fujiko's anguish was for nothing, then we don't get to see her gather the strength to move on. It's the difference between ""The past was awful, but I have the strength to let it go" vs "I can let go of my past, since it never happened anyway". It'd be like finding out Rigg's wife in Lethal Weapon was alive the whole time or something. ]

spoiler[I tried to relate to Fujiko, get inside her head, and the show basically said, "Stay out, you don't know me!"] So maybe I was projecting my own thoughts onto the story instead of letting the author speak. spoiler[Which, ironically, is exactly what Aisha was doing--projecting herself onto Fujiko!]

And Violence Jill's thoughts on spoiler[the villian's true identity as a metaphor for women upholding the patriarchy] is mind-blowing. Looks like they included a message about spoiler[internalized misogyny] after all.

TL,DR; As someone who loves thought-provoking themes, I'm cheering. As someone who wants a good story, I'm headdesking.
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