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HitokiriShadow



Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 6147

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:58 am Reply with quote
Regarding the fanservice and tired jokes issue:

Even those of us that get some enjoyment from watching shlocky fanservice romcoms are tired of some of those cliched 'gags'. I think the "Walks in while changing/falls on boobs > Gets punched" thing tops the list of things that get complained about by people that otherwise like these shows. And I personally have all sorts of irritations and issues with lead male characters, and obsession with boobs is among them.

It's just those of us that like these kinds of shows will put up with it if the show has enough other things going for it. "Guy getting punched for doing something" simply doesn't make up a significant portion of the comedy in the vast, vast majority of these shows. Some of the shows that fall on the fanservicier end of the spectrum will make fanservice an element of many of the jokes, but even then, that rarely makes up the majority of the show's gags. Most shows just contain a few recycled horsepaste gags among many other jokes that have nothing to do with fanservice or "tsundere girl punching guy" 'jokes'. Also, these shows are rarely pure comedies, so there's usually drama and/or a plot to watch the show for as well.

Just because something is in a show doesn't mean that people who like the show are watching it for that or even like that aspect. There also seems to be an assumption that someone who likes watching those simply CAN'T also like whatever it is the person decrying it happens to like. That people who get enjoyment out of fanservice shows or harem-ish romcoms can't possibly ALSO like the other stuff. Just because we get some enjoyment out of the 'mediocre' or 'bad' stuff doesn't mean that's all we like and don't also want other, different, better shows.

Sure, I get some enjoyment out of shows like Oda Nobuna no Yabou and NakaImo and even import some like OreImo and Haganai (though I see the latter two as distinctly and vastly better than the first two). I also watched Fate/Zero and Mawaru Penguindrum and spent ~$400 on Hourou Musuko (Wandering Son) and will spend a similar amount on Jinrui wa Suitai Shimashita (Humanity Has Declined). I give a lot of shows a try even if I don't expect to like them. I usually drop them within an episode or two but sometimes I find something worth watching.

Of course, I'm not Japanese but I think people are way too quick to make assumptions and oversimplify the Japanese viewers.

Uhhh.... I guess that kind of gets to the subsequent question about categorizing fans and Brian's answer to it. So, um, yeah. I'll just say that I strongly resent these attempts by people who dislike what makes up the bulk of current anime to 'analyze' the people who like and buy them (and frequently relates to how they're doing some horrible wrong to the shows THEY like).

Oh, but if you want to "make things different"? Buy the JP BDs of those shows you think need to do better and convince anyone else who seriously wants to make a difference to do the same. Seriously. If you can afford to buy 2-3 sets of R1 anime a month, you can afford to buy JP BDs and THAT is what will make a difference, if enough people do it.
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Kazemon15



Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 314

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:01 pm Reply with quote
Comedy is entirely subjective. Sure, the fanservice stuff isn't very funny to me and I actually hate it (maybe because I'm a girl...) however, the slapstick comedy, like the Ed and Winry parts, I do enjoy to some extent.

I agree that comedy is needed in dramatic anime or else it'll just be a big dramatic drag... so I welcome that kind of comedy in shows. Actually, I look for that kind of comedy. Any other shows that don't have it? Well, I won't be watching those....sadly, the anime that does have what I like aren't licensed, so I stick to importing those series from Japan.
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Yttrbio
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Joined: 09 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:06 pm Reply with quote
I like steak. I have for decades. How can I like such repetitive stuff? It's always just a slab of meat!
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invalidname



Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 553
Location: Grand Rapids, MI

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:11 pm Reply with quote
Can I just say that the half-hour drama format is one of the reasons I like anime? It's virtually unheard of on US television today, but the short drama was once a thing. The Twilight Zone excelled at telling taut little morality plays in 30 minutes, without the distraction of a B-plot or the never-worth-the-effort C-plot, and that efficiency can be seen in stand-alone episodes of episodic anime like Cowboy Bebop or (at times) Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex.

When long-running arcs are involved, sampling the story in shorter dollops works nicely too: it's painful to imagine something as slow-moving as Clannad being doled out in 60-minute increments. I didn't know going in that that first episode of Fate/Zero was double-length (45 minutes without ads or a second set of credits), and at some point in that grueling info-dump, I was thinking WHY? WHY WON'T YOU END ALREADY?


Last edited by invalidname on Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Surrender Artist
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Joined: 01 May 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:13 pm Reply with quote
Figure 17 was aired monthly on AT-X. I believe that it was split into twenty six twenty-two minutes episodes for a later weekly airing on a different network. I would like to see anime experiment with lengths and forms more. More diversity in that might allow more diversity of subject. I would not, however, want a universal change to hour-length shows. That didn't exactly help the fifth fourth season of The Twilight Zone. (Nor did videotape, but I digress)

Japanese comedy tends to feel a little 'special', in the length-of-the-bus sense. I suppose that it's cultural inscrutability and nobody can deny that terrifying amounts of American comedy is lousy too (I think that watching the premier of Whitney was the closest you can come to literally watching laughter die), but it's easy to feel that they don't really try to, "do our best," when it comes to the jokes. Maybe there's a difference not just in what they find funny, but what the Japanese feel the role of comedy should be and what it can be used for.

I wish that, "boobs," wasn't in the title; that's just asking for it, especially in an Answerman thread.


Last edited by Surrender Artist on Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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RDespair



Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 228
Location: California

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:33 pm Reply with quote
A few weeks ago, I was watching an OAV for the first time and had the strangest feeling of deja vu. Then I suddenly realized - the OAV was doing a parody of an obscure (in the US) anime that I had seen briefly at an anime convention. Once I realized what they were doing, I found it very funny, but I never would have picked up on the joke if I hadn't attended a particular panel at a particular convention.

Now I'm not denying that there are plenty of shallow anime comedies out there, but I have to wonder how often Western anime fans don't even realize that they're missing out on a joke because they don't have the relevant background or pop culture knowledge.
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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3196
Location: NE Ohio

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:02 pm Reply with quote
The OVA of Maria-sama ga Miteru, the 3rd, "Summer" series, had longer episodes ... AFAIR, about 40-45 minutes each ... which fit quite well with the original light novel content. And from memory, the animation is higher quality than the second, "Spring" series.

But then again, the five episodes went on on sale on about a two-month cycle: #1 29 Nov 2006, #2 29 Jan, #3 28 March, #4 30 May and #5 25 July 2007. When you can spend two months on one stage of the production pipeline for one episode and then move on, its possible to animate 45 minutes of content without cutting as many corners as on a 22min weekly broadcast television series.
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st_owly
Get off my lawn!Get off my lawn!


Joined: 20 May 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:42 pm Reply with quote
Katanagatari has double length episodes, but I think they made only 1 each month for a year, so I imagine they would've had more time to work on each episode than a weekly show would have.
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Haterater



Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 985

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:52 pm Reply with quote
Yttrbio wrote:
I like steak. I have for decades. How can I like such repetitive stuff? It's always just a slab of meat!


But do you eat it every day? I like stuff like pizza, but I wouldn't want it every day, so it really depends on how much you can tolerate it. And it can vary. If your watching five or more anime and seeing the same stuff, that can hamper on your viewing. Someone how watches it spacely can probably take it much better. I think maybe moderation is the key or if there's not much to the show, you can drop it. I would go for watching different genres and spacing it out to keep it from stalling.
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HeeroTX



Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 969
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:59 pm Reply with quote
RDespair wrote:
I have to wonder how often Western anime fans don't even realize that they're missing out on a joke because they don't have the relevant background or pop culture knowledge.

I agree with this question 100%. Most any person with the cultural background to support it would tell you that if you haven't lived in Japan you will miss AT LEAST half the jokes in something like Urusei Yatsura. I think it's incredibly short sighted for someone to say all anime comedies are either "boob jokes" or "tsudere fetish". While there is a lot of that, there's also a TON of humor that that person might not get. There's an anime right now that goes crazy with pun-related humor, which people who don't speak japanese WILL NOT UNDERSTAND (just like people who don't speak English wouldn't get the same kind of American gags). Slapstick is easy to RECOGNIZE as humor, even if you don't like it. Humor that is more "high brow" requires more knowledge of the material in question or it will sail right over your head.

Heck, who remembers all the Animaniacs and Looney Toons/Tiny Toons gags that a typical 8-yr old would probably not understand, but college kids across the country loved.

edit: I also want to note that while Answerman (and other ANN staff) may love Redline, just because an anime has critical appeal and brings something "unusual" to the table, does not automatically mean it will endure. I read the comment on People looking back fondly on Redline and my immediate first thought was Dead Leaves
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Thatguy3331



Joined: 18 Feb 2012
Posts: 1146

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:05 pm Reply with quote
I have to agree with HitokiriShadow that there seems to be someidea that people who watch lower quality shows only like those lower quality shows.

In all honesty its something that ever since I've gotten into the anime community, I have always been the most cynical and irritated on. people who like shonens can apparently only like shonens and nothing more. people who like these 'highly praised masterpiece' works apparently have no time for anything less than thier convoluted stadards. People who like harem shows or romcoms are apparently so deep in the garbage can of humanity, anc can only stay in that level forever and more.

WHAT THE fudge ARE YOU GIVING ME WITH THAT?!

Do I like good works, yes, yes I do. I enjoy and respect series that put thought and acctual story telling effort into their work and break the norm. I'm just not the type of person to ride that horse like I'm trying to win a million dollars for a rodeo show! What I really like is simply whatever entertains me and what REALLY makes me stick with a series is wether I get a particular amount of enjoyment off of it. and that can come from anything, I generally like humor and or light hearted shows, darker shows that acctually know what they're trying to do(this also applies to shows that try to be profound and question everything), some nice looking action shows and I also like a tidbit of romance every now and again. all of those things I go to anime/manga/Light Novels for in general because diffrent series do particlar things. yes there are genres and sub gernes, but there is no one genre that can give me everything, not all action shows or shonens can give me romance or a truly ingaging plot, yet not all shows that delvuge so deeply into the human psyche or morals can truly entertain me. In the end its as simple as I like what I like.

now as for the set up of guy gets hit by tsundere for no reason, over time I have come up with a few guesses as to why its used, how it can be funny and be relevent, its just that most of the time its poorly set up.
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TitanXL



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 4034

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:22 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
If you look at it from a logical standpoint, many (if not all) Japanese comedy is either about one of two things - fanservice/boobs and tsundere females.


So I guess this person watched one show and judged all series based on it. If they don't even know what manzai is, let alone what a tsukkomi or boke are, then I don't think they have anywhere near the amount of exposure or knowledge needed to write off an entire genre. There's so many types of Japanese comedies (and even then they're not limited to Japan at all) it would be like me writing off American comedy because I dislike the toilet humor in Ren & Stimpy, which clearly every American comedy is like, right? I can make misinformed generalizations too.
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brand



Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 660

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:42 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
If you look at it from a logical standpoint, many (if not all) Japanese comedy is either about one of two things - fanservice/boobs and tsundere females.


Yes, Cromartie High School was so full of boob jokes and tsundere females it isn't even funny.
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Keonyn
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Joined: 25 May 2005
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Location: Coon Rapids, MN

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:09 pm Reply with quote
TitanXL wrote:
Quote:
If you look at it from a logical standpoint, many (if not all) Japanese comedy is either about one of two things - fanservice/boobs and tsundere females.


So I guess this person watched one show and judged all series based on it. If they don't even know what manzai is, let alone what a tsukkomi or boke are, then I don't think they have anywhere near the amount of exposure or knowledge needed to write off an entire genre. There's so many types of Japanese comedies (and even then they're not limited to Japan at all) it would be like me writing off American comedy because I dislike the toilet humor in Ren & Stimpy, which clearly every American comedy is like, right? I can make misinformed generalizations too.


Have to agree with Titan on this one, there's just nothing logical about that standpoint at all; generalizations are actually very rarely logical, if ever. Just because there is one common story type that gets a lot of attention in a genre or doesn't mean that the genre and itself doesn't see successful titles that do not fit that type. When you generalize to that level you're only doing yourself a disservice as you'll just be inclined to write things off without giving them a fair shake.

Yes, paint by the numbers generic story types exist in anime just like every other medium that has ever existed likely since artistic expression began, that doesn't mean that it's all that is out there. You're not really assessing things fairly if you're going to write off a whole genre because of one currently prolific sub-genre.
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Deacon Blues



Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 162
Location: Niagara Falls, NY

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:13 pm Reply with quote
Oddly enough, you're a bit mistaken with the Ghost in the Shell television series. Back in the haydays of Production IG's forums, many of the community members were able to interact with the production staff. We learned that the schedule was often quite hectic since they produced two episodes a month (for airing on PPV) and their turnaround time was considerable shorter than most. Most of the time they were just finishing the final touches on the next set of episodes when one set was on the air.
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