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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 12496
Location: NZL

PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:19 am Reply with quote
CTB wrote:
Also to settle the current big argument...


All of which has no bearing on the Anime which doesn't have any of that.

Maybe the novel doesn't have that particular plot hole, but the Anime most certainly does.
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ZorgonXtreme



Joined: 23 Feb 2004
Posts: 250
Location: Anchorage, AK

PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:05 am Reply with quote
CTB wrote:
ZorgonXtreme wrote:
So, somebody who's also read the novels please help me on somethings.

In the novels, didn't the big fish monster spoiler[drop a rare fishing pole that Asuna gave to the fisherman?]

Also, the music is amazing. I feel like it's been a long while since Yuki Kajiura did something that showed up on my radar (Madoka was the last one and I can't remember when that was made).


In the novel spoiler[the big fish monster did drop a silver fishing rod which Asuna did give it to Nishida the old fishman]

Also to settle the current big argument spoiler[ in the novel Kayaba Akihiko did tell all the trapped players the following when he appear as a massive GM in the beginners city:Players, there is no need to worry about the bodies you left on the other side. As of this moment, all TV, radio, and Internet media are repeatedly reporting this situation; including the fact that there have been numerous deaths. The danger of having your Nerve Gear taken off has already all but disappeared. In a moment, using the two hours I have provided, all of you will be transported to hospitals or similar institutes and be given the best treatment. So you can relax... and concentrate on beating the game.]


Ah, that's what I thought. It's only been a week since I've finished the first light novel, so I guess my memory is just awful. :/

And as addendum to the big spoiler quoted here: spoiler[ I'm sure the anime will address this in the end when Kirito wakes up in his hospital bed, though it does seem kind of late to address something that important.]
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wanderlustking



Joined: 18 Jun 2008
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Location: Bozeman, Montana

PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:50 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
But then why did the authorities hook players back up to a game in which they could die? Why not leave them unconscious for several years until they could figure out how to disable the nerve gear completely? There's no point in saving people only to put them back in the game and have them die in a boss battle or whatever.
All this would do is completely remove the player's free will. As things are, while they may be stuck in a virtual world, the players can still act. They can still, essentially, live. This is actually a pretty major theme; the players still have lives, and routines, and their time in SAO is far from wasted or useless.
dtm42 wrote:
The term[plot hole] can mean multiple things.
Man, wouldn't it be awesome if there was aconsistent definition of plot hole that we could all agree on for the purposes of this debate? One that comes from a (relatively) valid source? Take your pick. By those definitions, I don't think the things dtm42 has complained about can be considered plot holes, even if they are never fully explained. In most stories, details are only given if the story is better because of them. This is referred to as narrative causality in certain circles. If an in depth explanation of how the players were treated medically becomes important to the themes and character dynamics that the creators are trying to present us with, then I certainly hope those explanations are both forthcoming and satisfying; if they aren't though, I'd really rather [urlhttp://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MST3KMantra]they don't try too hard[/url] and fall flat.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:32 am Reply with quote
wanderlustking wrote:
All this would do is completely remove the player's free will. As things are, while they may be stuck in a virtual world, the players can still act. They can still, essentially, live. This is actually a pretty major theme; the players still have lives, and routines, and their time in SAO is far from wasted or useless.


Think about the situation from the families' point of view. They want their loved ones back, and some of them would rather leave the players in comas and hope the authorities can jailbreak the nerve gear than subject the players to being part of a literal game of death. The players are unable to make their opinions known to the authorities, so they don't have a say in the decision-making process. I don't know what laws Japan has about power of attorney. But, if it is anything like other countries, the decision of whether to hook the players back up to the game or not would have rested with the families.

Is it better for the players to live out their lives in Aincrad rather than peacefully dreaming for several years? Depends on the player. Some like Asuna and Kirito have found happiness inside the game, but still want to leave. Others have fully adapted to the game, made a life for themselves and would be worse off going back to their old lives. Still more people hate SAO and (if given the choice) would rather sleep the game off than live in constant fear. But all that doesn't matter. If a family member doesn't want their beloved (some of whom are children) in the game, then I don't see how the authorities could hook them back up. Could you imagine the lawsuits if a person was hooked back up against the family's wishes and then died in the game? This whole saga is going to keep every lawyer in Japan well-fed for years.

wanderlustking wrote:
Man, wouldn't it be awesome if there was aconsistent definition of plot hole that we could all agree on for the purposes of this debate? One that comes from a (relatively) valid source? Take your pick.


Funnily enough, the first source actually has a definition of "missing element". Even more hilariously, the third source is Wikipedia, the exact same one I already used.

Wikipedia wrote:
...or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot.


The second (TVTropes) is the only one of the three that doesn't specifically use the definition that I employed.

Better luck next time.
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wanderlustking



Joined: 18 Jun 2008
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Location: Bozeman, Montana

PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:43 am Reply with quote
The key words here are "blatant" and "relevant." As I already said, I don't consider the information particularly important given that a)the characters themselves have no way of knowing whats going on outside of Aincrad, and b) that information would do nothing to help establish the themes being used, insofar as I can tell. Right now, the main themes of this show, IMO, are isolation, and that time spent outside of the conventional "real world" isn't wasteful, and can in fact be productive. The information you're whining about would be detrimental to the former, and do nothing to reinforce the latter. This argument's cause is simple; your ability to suspend your disbeliefe isn't as "strong" as ours. I put strong in quotes because this really isn't a bad thing; what's bad is that you're being so aggressive about it, and implying that we are dolts for having missed these allegedly "glaring plot holes." The information simply isn't vital to our enjoyment of the show, so we didn't give it's abscence much thought. If it's absolutely critical to your enjoyment though, simply say so and move on. There is no need to get so worked up about it, or insult our inteligence; it really is just a show. For the record, that last part can be directed towards the rest of y'all too.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:32 am Reply with quote
wanderlustking wrote:
...what's bad is that you're being so aggressive about it, and implying that we are dolts for having missed these allegedly "glaring plot holes."


Well, they are glaring plot holes. If they don't bother you then fine by me, just say "it doesn't bother me" and move on. But don't pretend they don't exist.

wanderlustking wrote:
This argument's cause is simple; your ability to suspend your disbeliefe isn't as "strong" as ours.


Oh, I can suspend my disbelief fairly well. After all, I am a fan of Anime; being a master at suspending disbelief is not just useful but practically a health and safety requirement. If a person watched Midori Days without strongly suspending disbelief their head would explode.

But. I choose not to suspend disbelief too much. After all, why should I? The better the story, the less disbelief needs to be suspended, and insisting that a story meets me halfway is called having standards. Plus, I always make sure that part of me is analysing the show as objectively as possible even when I'm watching it. That's why even though I quite like Future Boy Conan and The Big O (both of which I'm currently watching), I'm constantly picking out the many, many flaws in them. Same goes with Sword Art Online.
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wanderlustking



Joined: 18 Jun 2008
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Location: Bozeman, Montana

PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:51 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
Well, they are glaring plot holes.
This is what I'm talking about. Your refusing to distinguish between information you deem vital, and information that is simply Vital, with a capital V. The vast majority of fans have no problem being left out of the loop on these topics; and as I mentioned earlier, information on how the player's were treated medically on the "outside" would be contradictory to established fact.
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jsc315



Joined: 09 Aug 2004
Posts: 924

PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:26 am Reply with quote
Ever think it's bad writing? It's not like this show is all that complex. If this was a mystery then sure, but its a a stupid fun anime and to take it serious in anyway is pointless. If it is a plot hole so be it. MOVE ON already!
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DuskyPredator
It...it's not like I post for you or anything!It...it's not like I post for you or anything!


Joined: 10 Mar 2009
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Location: Brisbane, Australia

PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:36 am Reply with quote
To me knowing how they were moved seems to be of as much importance as: Find out the recipe of Akiko's jam, how is a Death Note and Shinigami made, how can someone play The World using a mobile phone, and what is the actual method for creating weapons in Angel Beats. All things relativly important to their plots and not explained, but would they count as plot holes?
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 1547

PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:07 am Reply with quote
Key wrote:
Episode 13:

Wow.

I'll be interested to see how the traditional naysayers react to this one, because to me it played out like an answer to just about every complaint that people have been lodging about the series over the past couple of months. Asuna shines again without any involvement from Kirito, the Asuna/Kirito relationship felt like it finally had enough traction for the tender scenes between the two of them to be fully credible and involving, it addresses concerns about game world vs. real world life, both characters show some distinct development and advancement, spoiler[the level 75 boss is suitably intimidating, and seeing all of the top-level players teaming up against the Skull Reaper - especially the Kirito/Asuna combo and how well they played off of Heathcliff - was thrilling. Damn good animation on the Skull Reaper as well.] It even slipped in some tastefully sexy fan service, too.

The only minor complaint I had is that spoiler[the nondescript participants in the boss fight died too easily (I didn't think that was necessary to convey how dangerous this boss is)], but I'm willing to overlook that in light of everything else the episode does well.

And if you haven't seen the episode yet, don't get hung up on the fish thing in the first part. It gets way better from there.


I thoroughly enjoyed this episode. For me it was absolutely the best episode to date. I actually liked the fact that it transitioned from the fishing story to some action about 2/3 of the way through. I felt like there was just enough development of Kirito/Asuna's relationship during the down time surrounding the fishing part. The only negative i'd have about that is that I felt like spoiler[Asuna's speech to the fisherman right before they left went on a little too long and was a bit overly sentimental], but other than that I thought it was done well.

This episode was good overall for Asuna's development. spoiler[I liked the fact that she was talking about her concerns for what was happening to their bodies in the real world.] I also like the fact that she was showing some measure of independence from Kirito, as opposed to the submissive stuff we've seen in the past. Sure, there could have been more about her real life identity, but I felt like there was appropriate development for her in the context of the general plot of this episode. As far as Kirito's development, he is still very much an enigma. I can't say this episode did much for him.

The action part of the episode was also a lot of fun. I had been wanting to see the side character utilized in some way in battle for a long time. I do think it would have been more cool if each of them had some kind of special skill which made them particularly useful in the battle, but at least they were there and seemed strong enough to not die instantly. I really really hope this show doesn't kill one of them off in the next episode and have some extremely over sentimental monologue by Kirito about them. I would see that as very cheap.

As for dtm's comment about the plot holes. I agree that the whole situation withspoiler[ their bodies being moved to hospitals was a big plot hole in the anime.] Perhaps the LNs explained this better, but I was really confused about it when it was introduced in the episode. It didn't totally kill the episode or anything, but it was definitely something that should have been written in better.
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Tuor_of_Gondolin
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Joined: 20 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:05 am Reply with quote
CTB wrote:
Also to settle the current big argument spoiler[ in the novel Kayaba Akihiko did tell all the trapped players the following when he appear as a massive GM in the beginners city:Players, there is no need to worry about the bodies you left on the other side. As of this moment, all TV, radio, and Internet media are repeatedly reporting this situation; including the fact that there have been numerous deaths. The danger of having your Nerve Gear taken off has already all but disappeared. In a moment, using the two hours I have provided, all of you will be transported to hospitals or similar institutes and be given the best treatment. So you can relax... and concentrate on beating the game.]


Thanks, CTB. Not only does this greatly clarify the situation, but it also shows that Akihiko did everything possible to prevent anyone from dying due to his actions... while still doing what he did. From a strictly utilitarian point of view, I would guess he did it so as to ensure the largest number of subjects possible remained in the game. But at any rate, it is clear that the author did take this into consideration, even if it wasn't very well handled by the anime writers.

So we now know a bit more about the setup with the NerveGears: Akihiko set up a one-time deal where they could remain out of contact with SAO while the victims were being moved, but after that they would need to be in contact. Presumably there are timers still in place for momentary interruptions, but not for long time periods.

It is interesting that by adding this new part of The Speech that Akihiko is placing yet more emphisis on clearing the game. He seems to really want people to focus on beating the game, as opposed to simply living in the world. If he just wanted to lord it over everyone, then why not make clearing the game something almost impossibly difficult, or something that would take a decade or longer to finish? I wonder how long he calculated it would take to accomplish and why he wanted it to take that long? Is it for reasons similar to what Asura stated to Kirito (that beyond a certain length of time, people's minds would begin to break down regardless of how much medical treatment they received)? Or are there other reasons as well? I guess we'll have to wait and see. I don't think Akihiko's true reasons have been revealed yet.
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Blood-
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:50 am Reply with quote
I remember after watching episode 1 that I was hoping the show would deal with the mechanics of people "trapped" in a virtual game in a somewhat credible fashion, even though the premise itself was so incredible. As the episodes went by, it became clear to me that the show was either going to basically ignore the mechanics, or just gloss over them. I was disappointed, but I made my peace with the situation. Which is why I don't go bug eff crazy when that aspect isn't dealt with to my satisfaction. It was painfully obvious to me from early on that the show was most invested in servicing the fantasy setting, with some game details thrown in here and there for a bit of color, I guess. Wouldn't have been my choice if I had had a creative say, but still interesting enough for me to want to follow it.
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CTB



Joined: 16 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:51 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
CTB wrote:
Also to settle the current big argument...


All of which has no bearing on the Anime which doesn't have any of that.

Maybe the novel doesn't have that particular plot hole, but the Anime most certainly does.


I see! You are one of [...let's not start with attacks and accusations. Counter their points, but let's not start making it personal.]

The novel has direct bearing on the Anime, which is it 100% based on, for the limitation of the Anime to fit within the current format, there are obvious details going to be not included from the novel, as any movie/video that are based on a novel will also do that same.

In the Anime Kayaba Akihiko told the trapped players he already released to the medias the info along with the warning of forcibly removing the Nerve Gear will cause death to the person wearing it. Further more he also said 213 people die as the result of not believe in his warnings by trying to remove it and therefore people outside is now taking his action/warning seriously and the danger of the current player's Nerve Gear being remove is now minimal.
Reasonable thinking would be one can assume Kayaba Akihiko's released info includes the method for the authorities to treat the comatose player's body for the longer term and the list of players and their home addresses.

Also spoiler[ the time line of the last episode is not just a few weeks into the game but ~2 years into it. Which I think is the reason for what concerns Asuna.]
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ZorgonXtreme



Joined: 23 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:26 pm Reply with quote
Is there going to be a second seasons of this show? I'm curious as to how much novel material they plan to cover.
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getchman
He started itHe started it


Joined: 07 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:19 pm Reply with quote
well, preorders are astronomically high, so right now a second season seems very possible.
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