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About FUNimation's end credits.


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Ryo Hazuki



Joined: 01 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:46 am Reply with quote
manicli wrote:

Does anyone own a Japanese release of a Disney movie? Well I don't but I suspect that if it was dubbed in Japanese, then the Japanese voice actors would appear first. But that's just speculation I have no actual proof, but it does make sense to me.


I don't know about Japanese releases, but in Finland the Finnish dubbers are credited last.
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Kruszer
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:51 am Reply with quote


Seriously? Credit order? This is a 4 page long thread?
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manicli



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:16 pm Reply with quote
Ryo Hazuki wrote:
manicli wrote:

Does anyone own a Japanese release of a Disney movie? Well I don't but I suspect that if it was dubbed in Japanese, then the Japanese voice actors would appear first. But that's just speculation I have no actual proof, but it does make sense to me.


I don't know about Japanese releases, but in Finland the Finnish dubbers are credited last.


Well Finland never contributed anything significant to the world anyway so that country doesn't count Razz I kid I jk I'm still curious about the Japanese release though. I guess it depends more on the company.
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nbahn
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:29 pm Reply with quote
Kruszer wrote:
Seriously? Credit order? This is a 4 page long thread?

And it does not help that you have contributed to its length! RazzLaughing
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SpacemanHardy



Joined: 03 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:31 pm Reply with quote
Hitokiri Kenshin wrote:
Thankfully, even if they don't dub openings and endings of a series, if a character sings in the show, they will dub that.


FUNimation still does, that is. Most other companies have just started switching over to the Japanese audio for those scenes (such as in K-on! or The World God Only Knows).

Although I did notice in the recent Tiger & Bunny dub premiere that Kari Wahlgren did in fact dub Blue Rose's song.
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Kruszer
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:25 pm Reply with quote
nbahn wrote:
Kruszer wrote:
Seriously? Credit order? This is a 4 page long thread?

And it does not help that you have contributed to its length! RazzLaughing

True, but this thread was in dire need a facepalm image and another injection of reason.
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504NOSON2
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:50 am Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
penguintruth wrote:
But it's the Japanese who originated the show, the characters, everything about the production. Shouldn't they rightfully be first?


No. Funi clients are not buying the original Japanese product. They are buying an official localized version of the original Japanese product. To me, it makes more sense that the localized version gets credited first.


I know I'm a couple of days behind but; regardless of whatever language the audio track is, the product is still Japanese to its very core. Remember, audio isn't an essential or necessary feature of a work, for it to be considered "anime". (i.e. the oldest known anime was a silent two-minute film first screened in 1917). [1]. So, unless the actual footage is "localized" (see 4Kids), then the "product" hasn't really been "localized".

Perhaps if the companies were to place the credits in order relative to the audio track (e.g on the English track, the Americans credits go first, and the on the Japanese, their credits go first). However, switching audio tracks doesn't produce that effect. Since the Japanese are the sole reason for the existence of the product, they should be credited first.

In all fairness, though, much of what I've seen from Sentai actually credits the Japanese twice; the original staff in Kana and then the English and Japanese credits over a black back drop, generally with the Japanese ran first.

Still, the issue isn't really that significant.
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DomonX2



Joined: 14 Sep 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 4:48 am Reply with quote
504NOSON2 wrote:
Blood- wrote:
penguintruth wrote:
But it's the Japanese who originated the show, the characters, everything about the production. Shouldn't they rightfully be first?


No. Funi clients are not buying the original Japanese product. They are buying an official localized version of the original Japanese product. To me, it makes more sense that the localized version gets credited first.


I know I'm a couple of days behind but; regardless of whatever language the audio track is, the product is still Japanese to its very core. Remember, audio isn't an essential or necessary feature of a work, for it to be considered "anime". (i.e. the oldest known anime was a silent two-minute film first screened in 1917). [1]. So, unless the actual footage is "localized" (see 4Kids), then the "product" hasn't really been "localized".

Perhaps if the companies were to place the credits in order relative to the audio track (e.g on the English track, the Americans credits go first, and the on the Japanese, their credits go first). However, switching audio tracks doesn't produce that effect. Since the Japanese are the sole reason for the existence of the product, they should be credited first.

In all fairness, though, much of what I've seen from Sentai actually credits the Japanese twice; the original staff in Kana and then the English and Japanese credits over a black back drop, generally with the Japanese ran first.

Still, the issue isn't really that significant.


Anime=/= cartoons ONLY from Japan. You do realise that, don't you? If we're to be technical, the first anime as a WHOLE is Fantasmagorie. The first continuous anime was Steamboat Willie and the first continuous Japanese anime was Momotarō: Umi no Shinpei.
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Blood-
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:05 am Reply with quote
504NOSON2 wrote:
Blood- wrote:
penguintruth wrote:
But it's the Japanese who originated the show, the characters, everything about the production. Shouldn't they rightfully be first?


No. Funi clients are not buying the original Japanese product. They are buying an official localized version of the original Japanese product. To me, it makes more sense that the localized version gets credited first.


I know I'm a couple of days behind but; regardless of whatever language the audio track is, the product is still Japanese to its very core. Remember, audio isn't an essential or necessary feature of a work, for it to be considered "anime". (i.e. the oldest known anime was a silent two-minute film first screened in 1917). [1]. So, unless the actual footage is "localized" (see 4Kids), then the "product" hasn't really been "localized".


That bolded part is totally wrong. Localization is a spectrum. An anime with non-Japanese subtitles is, by definition, localized. Very few customers would buy or watch an anime that has not been localized so that they can understand the dialogue. Yeah, a few people do buy Japanese imports that don't have subtitles or dubs, but even then, they usually only do that after they have seen a fansub or stream or something that has made the source material intelligible to them.

An anime that has a non-Japanese language dub is even more localized than one that simply has subtitles. An anime that has footage edited or altered from the original is even more localized (although many of us would use the term bastardized in that case). Spectrum, get it?

And even though subtitling or dubbing CREATIVELY SPEAKING forms a smaller part of the overall creative effort, when it comes to business or commerce, it is the part of the process that renders an unsaleable product (i.e. a non-localized anime) into something that can be sold. There wouldn't be millions of non-Japanese speaking anime fans all over the world without localization. Not that the "ZOMG, LET'S SHOW PROPER RESPECT TO OUR JAPANESE CREATIVE OVERLORDS, GUISE!!!!" kiddies will ever understand that simple point.
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Touma



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:41 am Reply with quote
504NOSON2 wrote:
So, unless the actual footage is "localized" (see 4Kids), then the "product" hasn't really been "localized".

But the original video and audio is not the "product" being discussed here.
The localized release is a different product. The original is a product that I will not buy. The localized release is a product that I will buy.

Quote:
Perhaps if the companies were to place the credits in order relative to the audio track (e.g on the English track, the Americans credits go first, and the on the Japanese, their credits go first).

That would probably be an unnecessary extra expense.
Not that it really matters, but Right Stuf may have done that with their release of His and Her Circumstances. That has so many different tracks that it might be the most complex North American release ever.

Quote:
Still, the issue isn't really that significant.

So why are we still talking about it?
Because everybody wants to have the last word?
Probably.
[^^^ probably not the last word Razz ]
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504NOSON2
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:47 pm Reply with quote
DomonX2 wrote:
Anime=/= cartoons ONLY from Japan. You do realise that, don't you? If we're to be technical, the first anime as a WHOLE is Fantasmagorie. The first continuous anime was Steamboat Willie and the first continuous Japanese anime was Momotarō: Umi no Shinpei.


Incorrect. By most authoritative definitions, anime is defined by its origin. That means "anime=/= cartoons ONLY from Japan" is a false premise right off the bat, because, by its very definition, it must be of Japanese origin. That automatically disqualifies Fantasmagorie and Steamboat Willie.

Other definitions appeal to "style" (big eyes, colorful hair, unique facial expressions that depict certain emotions, etc). The two examples also fail to meet that criteria, as well. And, the latter is an almost textbook example of a signature archetypical American cartoon.

Blood- wrote:
That bolded part is totally wrong. Localization is a spectrum. An anime with non-Japanese subtitles is, by definition, localized. Very few customers would buy or watch an anime that has not been localized so that they can understand the dialogue. Yeah, a few people do buy Japanese imports that don't have subtitles or dubs, but even then, they usually only do that after they have seen a fansub or stream or something that has made the source material intelligible to them.


I understand that, by definition, this is the case. That doesn't change the fact that it's still a folk definition, generated by an illusion; that the audio is an inherent property of the anime's fabric. It's not. You're also using language localization interchangeably with translation. Two totally different adaptation processes. A mere translation is the transferring of semantic meaning, as accurately as possible, from one language to another. Localization involves adapting to a specific culture's social norms, customs, habits, etc. Most people who purchase anime, in fact, don't wish to have their product localized. (Again, see 4kids).

Quote:
An anime that has a non-Japanese language dub is even more localized than one that simply has subtitles. An anime that has footage edited or altered from the original is even more localized (although many of us would use the term bastardized in that case). Spectrum, get it?


The spectrum analogy doesn't quite apply, due to the fact that you're referring to two different types of localization; dub localization (mere audio changes) vs localization involving video editing and replacing of objects.

@ Touma-- I'll just say you're right and you win the internetz, simply because I'm hungry and want to go eat breakfast now.
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Blood-
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:32 pm Reply with quote
@ 504NOSON2 - you are wrong in every single particular. Amazing. Okay, let me explain a few things to you. First, "localization" in the context of anime simply means the process by which a company takes a Japanese anime product and makes changes to it so that it can be sold in that company's home market. Ergo, taking an anime and coming up with a semantically perfect translation of the original Japanese into a different language and adding those as subtitles IS localization. This should be stunningly obvious to anyone who [insults removed]. Now, if that same company decides that it is going to go beyond providing a semantically perfect translation, and alters meaning so that they reflect local customs, etc, then that company is providing a more heavily localized version than the first.

You see, 504NOSON2, I wasn't using the term "spectrum" as an analogy - I was using it literally because as anyone who [insults removed] understands, there are DEGREES of localization, ranging from faithfully translated subtitles all the way up (or down, if you prefer) to actually replacing images of sushi with sandwiches.

Sadly, for you, you seem to have come up with your own completely personal definition of what "localization" means that has no reference to anyone who understands what the term actually means with respect to anime.

Your assertion that audio is not "an inherent property" of the anime's fabric [enough with the insults and condescension]. "Anime" is not just animated images. It is static background paintings, it is composed music, it is added source music, it is recorded dialogue. All those elements come together to create a product called "anime." That's why the term "movie" and "film" are interchangeable. Film can be simply the material that images are recorded on but it can also refer to the finished product of a movie: motion and sound and everything else that goes into a film.
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504NOSON2
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:57 am Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
First, "localization" in the context of anime simply means the process by which a company takes a Japanese anime product and makes changes to it so that it can be sold in that company's home market. Ergo, taking an anime and coming up with a semantically perfect translation of the original Japanese into a different language and adding those as subtitles IS localization. This should be stunningly obvious to anyone who [insults removed]. Now, if that same company decides that it is going to go beyond providing a semantically perfect translation, and alters meaning so that they reflect local customs, etc, then that company is providing a more heavily localized version than the first.


Wrong. As I stated earlier, there's a distinction between "translation" and "localization". By simply analyzing the word, one can easily determine this. Localizing something means producing a product that conforms to the local norms of a very specific audience. Translating is not. Localization is the second step of adapting a product in an attempt to make the product more accessible to said audience. A translation is just a general shift from a source language into a target language. Nothing localized about it. As countries that speak the same language, have different cultures, and unless the translations are suited to cater to local quirks, it ins't localized. Fansubbers that keep honorifics and original puns don't "localize" the anime, they translate it. Ask any professional translator. It's rather simple, really.

Quote:
You see, 504NOSON2, I wasn't using the term "spectrum" as an analogy - I was using it literally because as anyone who [insults removed] understands, there are DEGREES of localization, ranging from faithfully translated subtitles all the way up (or down, if you prefer) to actually replacing images of sushi with sandwiches.


Wrong. Degrees of localization would refer to the degree of culturally specific edits and changes in the anime work. Again, a literal, purist/elitist-approved translation CANNOT be a localization, because nothing was changed to adapt to the viewer's cultural understanding.

Quote:
Sadly, for you, you seem to have come up with your own completely personal definition of what "localization" means that has no reference to anyone who understands what the term actually means with respect to anime.


No, the anime realm has not co-opted the term to bear a unique meaning. The process is the same in the adaptation of every form of televised media. Language localisation.

Quote:
Your assertion that audio is not "an inherent property" of the anime's fabric [enough with the insults and condescension]. "Anime" is not just animated images. It is static background paintings, it is composed music, it is added source music, it is recorded dialogue. All those elements come together to create a product called "anime." That's why the term "movie" and "film" are interchangeable. Film can be simply the material that images are recorded on but it can also refer to the finished product of a movie: motion and sound and everything else that goes into a film.


Did someone say "personal definition"? All of these features are presented along with the anime, but even when removed, the actual animation (ANIME, or "static background paintings") itself is still left unchanged. My assertion is supported by the example I provided above, demonstrating that the earliest anime productions were silent; void of music AND dialogue. If these auxiliary features are essential in nature to a work being an "anime", then that would remove the pioneers of anime (Namakura Gatana, Imokawa Mukuzo Genkanban no Maki) from the classification of anime. See the implications of such a notion? The same applies to your film analogy-- which was actually an analogy this time.

Now, one can respond with arguing that the definition of what is anime has changed since then. Not really. Just the understanding of what is to be expected in modern anime.
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Blood-
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:22 am Reply with quote
No, there is no distinction between localization and translation. Translation is a localization activity. Completely faithful translations are virtually impossible, in any case, but it wouldn't matter if they weren't. You are taking a product and altering it so that consumers in a territory other than the one it was created in can understand it. Your contention that translation is not a localization activity is really bizarre.

And you continue to misunderstand the word "spectrum." Well, ain't much I can do about that.

Your contention that because the first anime was silent therefore music and dialogue should not be considered inherent elements of anime today is so silly I'm just going to let it hang there. By your definition, altering the music score in an anime would NOT be considered localization since music is not an inherent part of anime is just too strange for words.
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DomonX2



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:14 am Reply with quote
Quote:
Incorrect. By most authoritative definitions, anime is defined by its origin. That means "anime=/= cartoons ONLY from Japan" is a false premise right off the bat, because, by its very definition, it must be of Japanese origin. That automatically disqualifies Fantasmagorie and Steamboat Willie.

Other definitions appeal to "style" (big eyes, colorful hair, unique facial expressions that depict certain emotions, etc). The two examples also fail to meet that criteria, as well. And, the latter is an almost textbook example of a signature archetypical American cartoon.


No, YOU'RE incorrect. I'm going to destroy this comment so bad, it's not even funny. Listen, kid, if anime was only Japanese, why was Tom and Jerry 85 on TV Asahi's list for being the top 100 "anime" of all time, if anime was only Japanese? Why was Toy Story 3 the best selling 'anime' in it's period? Not to mention the word 'anime' is merely the shortened form of the Japanese pronunciation of the English/French word animation, which is animēshon. Why are popular western cartoons in Japan like Spongebob and Simpsons called anime, if anime was only Japanese. Westerners corrupted the term, to try spilt the types of animation and make them seem as different genres, By that logic, Tintin should be refereed to as a 'l'animation' because it's a French cartoon and has different art than American animation, but French call Beast Wars, a Canadian cartoon 'l'animation' because it's ANIMATION, not COUNTRY of origin. BTW, I hope you know that 'Japanese' art style originated from Mickey Mouse. And the term 'anime' is French, not Japanese.

http://www.youtube.com/​watch?​v=​r8sSEDAUS_A

That pre-dated every modern Japanese cartoon, by several years.

Quote:
In Japan, the term anime does not specify an animation's nation of origin or style; instead, it serves as a blanket term to refer to all forms of animation from around the world.
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