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Why was Yu-Gi-Oh! 5D's not well recieved?


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TitanXL



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:30 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
Besides, many of the characters in the show are still in high-school. While teens aged 15-17 are not what we normally consider to be children, they still aren't adults. So they are non-adults (children) playing a card game like it was Serious Business. Calling it a "children's card game" is accurate enough.


Talk about arguing semantics.

DomonX2 wrote:
That's a load of bullshit that Yugioh is rated 13+. How come all the games based on the card game in Japan are rated CERO A instead of CERO B? That would be false advertising, because you wouldn't be able to go and buy a Yugioh game if you weren't 13, but you could get a game, which is basically the same thing in video game form. Also, that age rating in Japan is rather arbitrary, if you ask me.


And? Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne was rated CERO A as well, but got slapped with a 17+ Mature rating in the states. Persona 3 and 4 were also for kids but got aimed at adults in the states. The main flaw here is you're assuming the card game is rated for teenagers for the content level, which is what CERO rating usually cover for video games in Japan, and not because of the complicated mechanics. Granted, Yu-Gi-Oh! has a lot more nudity and violence than Persona does, but that stuff is not a big deal in Japan. CERO A seems reasonable for the games given content level standards in Japan.

ikillchicken wrote:
Obviously kids don't play competitively. That doesn't mean they aren't still the primary audience. You don't need to play competitive to be into Yugioh. Hell, you don't even need to entirely understand the rules. Not if you're a little kid anyway.


So like any other card game then, including Magic?

Quote:
It's enough for them to see the anime and want to cards. (Incidentally, this is why Magic doesn't need a cartoon to promote it. The primary audience, older teens and young adults, buy it for the game itself. Where as the primary audience for Yugioh buys the cards because they like the anime).


That's a lot of projecting on your part there, not to mention disrespectful to the players. Just like it's projection on my part if I said only people who play Magic and those that read those Magic the Gathering books, or Magic doesn't have an anime because no one cares about Magic. Heck, that's why they invented Duel Masters in Japan, because not that many people care about Magic there. And now Duel Masters is now the #2 card game right behind Yu-Gi-Oh, ironically enough. I know plenty of people who play Yu-Gi-Oh!, Duel Masters, and Vanguard and don't watch the anime for either of them, they're just big into playing card games. Just like I know plenty of people who watch the anime of those shows but have never touched the actual card game, because they're big anime fans. I imagine you got the same relationship for Magic and book fans.

Quote:
So yeah, don't try to BS someone who actually used to play the game. The last thing Konami cares about is "competitive" play. It's just an afterthought. The money maker is little kids and they don't care about that sort of thing.


BS implies it's not true; like I said, take it up with Konami if you have a problem with it since it's their word. The fact you're trying to argue so hard against the people in charge of the game seems silly. Especially when your only evidence is "I used to play", as if that somehow supersedes Konami and the entire metagame environment.

Maybe that's how the American game is treated (God knows it's been so mismanaged here) In fact, I would totally agree that's all 4Kids and the like clearly cared about when they marketed it in the states. But for the actual OCG, that couldn't be further from the truth. I'm not sure why it's so hard or painful for someone to hear that isn't the case and it's also meant for people over the age of 12 and in their teenage/adult years.
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dtm42



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:37 am Reply with quote
TitanXL wrote:
Talk about arguing semantics.


I'll put it in words you can understand.

It's a card game, played by children. Calling it "a children's card game" is perfectly reasonable and logical.


Last edited by dtm42 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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st_owly
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:41 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
TitanXL wrote:
Talk about arguing semantics.


I'll put it in words you can understand.

It's a card game played by children. Calling it "a children's card game" is perfectly reasonable.


More than that, it was designed to be played by and marketed towards children. The fact that adults also play it doesn't change the fact that the primary audience is children.
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TitanXL



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:45 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
I'll put it in words you can understand.

It's a card game played by children. Calling it "a children's card game" is perfectly reasonable.


I shouldn't have to explain why this logic is beyond flawed, but I will anyway:

"Porn sites are sites children go to. Calling them children's site is perfectly reasonable"

st_owly wrote:
More than that, it was designed to be played by and marketed towards children. The fact that adults also play it doesn't change the fact that the primary audience is children.


I assume despite all the evidence suggesting otherwise, you're not going to list any kind of citations and sources for this claim.
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st_owly
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:55 am Reply with quote
Several manga series, in Shonen Jump, which is a children's manga magazine... Rolling Eyes
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dtm42



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:56 am Reply with quote
TitanXL wrote:
I shouldn't have to explain why this logic is beyond flawed, but I will anyway:

"Porn sites are sites children go to. Calling them children's site is perfectly reasonable"


I was talking about the characters themselves.

Sure, adults like Pegasus and Bandit Keith played the game. But the main heroes and many of the villains were teens still in high-school.

TitanXL wrote:
I assume despite all the evidence suggesting otherwise, you're not going to list any kind of citations and sources for this claim.


We've already been over this. In the English-speaking world, Yu-Gi-Oh! was a children's show and the cards were marketed to children.
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ikillchicken
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:57 pm Reply with quote
TitanXL wrote:
So like any other card game then, including Magic?


Uh...no. I don't even know how you'd reach that conclusion.

Quote:
That's a lot of projecting on your part there, not to mention disrespectful to the players.


Look man, I've acknowledged that there is a significant group of players who are older. I've acknowledged that their playing Yugioh is perfectly understandable. I've acknowledged that it is a fun game with lots of depth for competitive players. All I'm suggesting that that these people aren't actually the primary audience and that the actual primary audience, little kids, don't really care about the game and are mostly just in it because they like the anime. If this is somehow "disrespectful" to you then it speaks more to your own weird insecurity about this.

Quote:
Just like it's projection on my part if I said only people who play Magic and those that read those Magic the Gathering books, or Magic doesn't have an anime because no one cares about Magic.


If nobody cared about magic then the cards wouldn't sell either. My "projections" are based on sensible reasoning where as yours don't hold up to any sort of scrutiny.

Quote:
I know plenty of people who play Yu-Gi-Oh!, Duel Masters, and Vanguard and don't watch the anime for either of them, they're just big into playing card games.


And how many of those people are children? Once again, I'm not disputing that there are older players who play Yugioh or suggesting that they only do so because of the anime. I'm saying that those people aren't the primary audience.

Quote:
Just like I know plenty of people who watch the anime of those shows but have never touched the actual card game, because they're big anime fans. I imagine you got the same relationship for Magic and book fans.


Not at all. I've never met a fan of the Magic books but not the card game or one who got into Magic because of the books. The books are basically an afterthought. Something for people who are already into Magic.

This is not at all true of Yugioh. Obviously that doesn't mean everyone who watches the anime plays the game but, especially with younger players, the vast majority who play the game watch the anime.

Quote:
BS implies it's not true; like I said, take it up with Konami if you have a problem with it since it's their word.


What exactly is "their word". I don't see you citing any actual comments by them.

Quote:
I'm not sure why it's so hard or painful for someone to hear that isn't the case and it's also meant for people over the age of 12 and in their teenage/adult years.


It's painful to listen to because it is not based in reality. It is all part of your little delusion about Japan stemming from your tiresome insecurities about your hobbies.
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Snomaster1



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:07 pm Reply with quote
Well,I saw "Yu-Gi-Oh! 5D's" and I didn't think it was too bad. It went a little off the rails at times but it wasn't too bad of a show. I didn't have too many problems with it. I'm surprised others have.
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TitanXL



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:45 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
I was talking about the characters themselves.

Sure, adults like Pegasus and Bandit Keith played the game. But the main heroes and many of the villains were teens still in high-school.


"Teenage card game" would be more accurate then if you were going off the fact the characters were 16 years old.. but that's still stupid to judge something on. Age of the main characters in a medium is not indicative of target audience.

Quote:
We've already been over this. In the English-speaking world, Yu-Gi-Oh! was a children's show and the cards were marketed to children.


Who cares about the 4Kids dub or card game. This is a Japanese franchise above all else, so they get seniority and priority over what another country does with the franchise.

ikillchicken wrote:
Uh...no. I don't even know how you'd reach that conclusion.


So you can't get into Magic and not play it competitively? Or know the rules much? Kids just can't mess around with it? Sounds fishy.

Quote:
What exactly is "their word". I don't see you citing any actual comments by them.


I already did. The actual age ranking on the card game boosters and boxes themselves. "Because I say so" is not a valid proof to say that the written target audience for a game are not actually the target audience. Unless you can find a way to prove why the creators of the game are wrong about their own product, you have zero leverage to stand on.

Quote:
It's painful to listen to because it is not based in reality. It is all part of your little delusion about Japan stemming from your tiresome insecurities about your hobbies.


The only insecurities I see is someone who is probably upset that Yu-Gi-Oh has overshadowed their own preferred card game, and has to find some way to dismiss it with silly excuses like "Oh, just dumb little kids play that game, not REAL card game fans". It's fine if you prefer Magic or whatever, but that's a very petty thing to do out of spite.
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dtm42



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:55 pm Reply with quote
TitanXL wrote:
Quote:
We've already been over this. In the English-speaking world, Yu-Gi-Oh! was a children's show and the cards were marketed to children.


Who cares about the 4Kids dub or card game. This is a Japanese franchise above all else, so they get seniority and priority over what another country does with the franchise.


Now you're just blatantly trolling.

If a Western fan wants to make a video aimed at other Western fans and in the video call Yu-Gi-Oh! a "children's card game" because he's basing it on the fact that the Western show and Western TCG are marketed to children, then that's perfectly fine.
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rheiders



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:49 pm Reply with quote
@TitanXL

I think the insecurity ikillchicken was referring to was your apparent obsession with whether a show is "for kids" or not, something which I have also noticed in many of your posts. I tend to agree- I don't really understand what the big deal is if you happen to like something that was originally aimed primarily at children. I don't really want to argue whether Yu-gi-oh! as it originally aired in Japan fits that bill because it's pointless to argue it with you, and it doesn't really matter anyway. I will openly admit that I love plenty of series aimed at children. Princess Tutu, one of my favorite shows, was originally aimed at little girls (though it is dark enough to have warranted a TV-14 rating here in the States, our ratings system is quite different from Japan's.) It is a kids' show. But that doesn't--and shouldn't--matter to me, because it's just the show's target demographic and says nothing about the quality of the show itself.

I know this quote has shown up on these forums a few times now and you've probably already seen it, but I think it's relevant:

"Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." ~C.S. Lewis

Also, as far as the "children's card game" joke goes, I think it's perfectly valid because LK has made it obvious that the abridged series specifically parodies the dubbed version of Yu-gi-oh (hence all the Dan Green jokes.)
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ikillchicken
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:05 am Reply with quote
TitanXL wrote:
So you can't get into Magic and not play it competitively? Or know the rules much? Kids just can't mess around with it? Sounds fishy.


I wouldn't go so far as to say it is impossible but I've never really known anyone to do this. This is, once again, because Magic is not tied to a popular television show/media franchise. There's not much motivation for kids to want to "mess around" with Magic unless they get into playing the actual game somehow. Where as I have known tons of kids who own a ton of Yugioh cards despite only half understanding the proper rules and never playing in any sort of vaguely competitive setting. In fact, I sort of was one of those kids. Except it wasn't Yugioh, it was Pokemon. I bought mountains of Pokemon cards as a kid and barely played the actual game. I just liked them because I liked Pokemon. Obviously this doesn't apply to Magic though.

Quote:
I already did. The actual age ranking on the card game boosters and boxes themselves. "Because I say so" is not a valid proof to say that the written target audience for a game are not actually the target audience.


Well once again, if your contention is that Yugioh is for 13 year olds we aren't really that far apart. A thirteen year old is still pretty much a child. So while I do think that is on the high end, they're more or less in the ballpark. Hence, this hardly provides some kind of damning evidence to support your claims.

Quote:
The only insecurities I see is someone who is probably upset that Yu-Gi-Oh has overshadowed their own preferred card game, and has to find some way to dismiss it with silly excuses like "Oh, just dumb little kids play that game, not REAL card game fans". It's fine if you prefer Magic or whatever, but that's a very petty thing to do out of spite.


Now really, a comment like this just confirms what I'm saying. I've said, literally a half dozen times, that...
-I like the Yugioh TCG
-I used to play the Yugioh TCG
-I think the Yugioh TCG has a ton of depth for older competitive players
I'll also add now to be clear that I don't play Magic and never have and actually prefer the game of Yugioh based on my admittedly limited experience with magic. Moreover, I've made it explicitly clear that the whole point of what I'm saying here, is not that Yugioh is for kids and therefore sucks...but rather the exact opposite: That just because Yugioh is for intended for kids doesn't make it bad or mean it can't also hold appeal for adults.

Yet you comically respond: "Yeah well...you must just hate Yugioh and want to dismiss it as a dumb kids game". That pretty much says all there is to say about how hung up you are on the idea that something you like can't be intended for kids. You apparently can't even conceive of someone admitting they like something intended for kids as I do. Which, again, is a shame because it leads you to do all these ridiculous mental gymnastics in defence of your hobby when you really don't need to do anything of the sort.
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BonusStage



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:45 pm Reply with quote
Well this wasn't the topic I was expecting Confused I thought it was obvious the game was originally for teens given how much got cut and its age rating. Kinda stupid to argue that fact.

rheiders wrote:
I didn't realize 5D's was poorly received--the people I know IRL who watched it liked it a lot better than GX. Of course, I can't say much since I'm not really a fan so much as someone who keeps tabs on the new series because I loved Yu-gi-oh so much as a kid, but I'm also curious to know why people apparently disliked it. I've only seen a few episodes, but it seemed interesting and I liked what I saw of Yusei, and I plan on watching more eventually.


I dunno I just find it tends to get criticized a lot compared to the the others. I was just looking for people's thoughts on it to see what people thought.

TitanXL wrote:
BonusStage, I don't think this forum is the best place for a Yu-Gi-Oh thread. I mean, so far I'm the only one who actually discussed the actual series itself and not just make a silly, misinformed Abridged joke about the subject. It becomes pretty clear who hasn't actually seen the series in these kinds of discussions.


I guess it being different from GX and DM and Zexal makes sense.

I did make it on other forums btw, I tend to get opinions from all over. Thanks for the input guys. Smile
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rheiders



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:01 pm Reply with quote
@BonusStage
Yeah, it is a stupid argument to be having. Laughing Ah, well.

In my admittedly rather uninformed opinion, I think it's cool that they tried something new^^ The darker mood is kind of neat, and I think Yusei is one of the more likeable Yu-gi-oh protagonists, from what I've seen. Of course, I'm a sucker for dystopian stuff, so I may be biased xD

Also, I gave Zexal a fair shot, but I actually really hated it xD; I thought the main character was really grating and annoying (and couldn't quite get over his haircut...) Maybe it gets better later, but I gave it a few episodes and it wasn't for me. But again, as I said, I'm not really a hardcore Yu-gi-oh fan so I highly doubt my opinions are in any way the norm^^; I just thought it was kind of surprising that 5Ds was so disliked among fans since it was pretty well-liked in my little circle.
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DuskyPredator
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:21 pm Reply with quote
CARD GAMES ON MOTORCYCLES!

I still collect the cards from it, but I would say that I ws too old by the time that 5D's came out, I have talked to my younger brother about it though and he seems to like it. I might just say that the whole thing as an anime was stretching too much for those who have watched previous seasons, kind of like how Ash has been a 10 year old for way too long.

And I do consider the game a children's card game, doesn't make me feel any less of man for liking it. Gustos all the way.
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