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Deltakiral
 Posts: 3338 Location: Glendora, CA (Avatar Hei from Darker than BLACK) |
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Here is something I wrote in that old Monster thread (I love that thread) something that I thought whent along with your idea. Also the episode title for 47 spoiler[the real monster is that inferring that the mother that chose one of her kids to give up is the real monster in light or everything.] Little bit of something to scratch your head to I guess I also agree with you that spoiler[The moment that the mom made that decision it changed everything. Even when Nina came back she somehow had the ability to keep everything under her skin, Whereas Johan was subjective to so much more after the fact all the expermient and such, it was doom to be born Johan. Ok and here something interesting about Johan, I also wrote this in the other thread. spoiler[By the way does anyone see a lot of Hitler in Johan? The whole suicide really pushed it over for me; I mean Hitler committed suicide, and also the amount of similarity between the two is undeniable isn't it? I could into more detail of the things that are strike so much in common, such as both are unwanted children, Hitler mom was going to abort him, Johan was a child who was born into the world for testing, and the fact they both nearly die at a fairly young age. I mean that makes sense to me a real monster, while making Johan a symbol for Hitler.] I don't know some feedback would be great. I mean that really the only monster I could ever think of in real life.] Food for thought I love this series good to see someone talking about it again, I have to get going my GF is bugging me to go get some food, talk to you later about my favorite MONSTER! Till next time, Delta Kiral |
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selenta
 Subscriber Posts: 1774 Location: Seattle, WA |
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Monster wasn't really a normal show to me, but more of an 'experience'. I.... was disturbed when watching the show, I could not physically sit through more than 4 episodes at a time. I would start sweating and would eventually be shivering so that by the end of the 4th episode I was a nervous wreck. I'm sure it was just me, but this show touched me in a way I would have prefered to do without.
While I do see a lot of spoiler[Hitler in Johann, I see more differences than anything. They attempted to draw a lot of comparisons between the two during the show, but if anything they only emphasized the differences between the two. Johann reached the pinnacle of human relationships early in his life, as early as 10, while Hitler didn't really reach his peak until his mid to late 30s. If anything, I don't think the intention was to compare the differences between the two as to accentuate the differences in magnitude between the two.] |
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Azathrael
 Posts: 745 |
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I don't think it was about comparison at all. I mean, spoiler[the Hitler references are obvious. But Johan was portrayed as an advancement of Hitler for the anime and not necessarily to compare and contrast. Johan should be considered more psychologically "perfect" than Hitler in the way that he is able to completely control people with nothing but words and be able to do it in the shadows. Johan is an individual that is partially based on Hitler, but simply because Hitler is the only person that's like Hitler (hehe) that ever existed.] |
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Deltakiral
Posts: 3338 Location: Glendora, CA (Avatar Hei from Darker than BLACK) |
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But isn't that what Hitler did? spoiler[Although he wasn't in the shadows he was in the forefront, but nonetheless he was able to make people follow his words and way. More on the control and psychological parts of Johan, wasn't it said that the greatest power was the ability to dominant (control) humans, the more I think about that the more it put Johan in a god like figure. And to go with his near angelic looks (Although angelic he does scare me when I look at him) he seems to fit in among god. ] I really want another monster to be finished that why I can find out exactly it is possible to make a Monster, and more importantly find out what happened spoiler[to grimmer, since the book is going to reveal the secret behind him.] I am so happy to be talking about Monster again!!! Till next time, Delta Kiral |
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Azathrael
Posts: 745 |
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Yes, but only to a point. Hitler couldn't spoiler[make people kill themselves], for example. The main point I was trying to get across is that Johan is not a comparative figure of Hitler but a more "perfected" Hitler (Note that I mentioned in my previous post that I don't think Johan was based on Hitler, just that someone like Hitler happened to exist and is relatable to Johan), making it obsolete to compare a superior version with an inferior version. Speaking in a completely realistic view, I think it's possible. I've been recently thinking about the human instincts due to a book I'm reading and I think intelligence is a hindrance to survival for human beings. People who "willingly" give up their lives to save someone (or even something) else. People who die for their beliefs. All of it would make no sense to an animal whose sole purpose for existence is survival and reproduction. Even if we did evolve from animals and retain some of our "ID", someone like Johan could easily manipulate a weaker mind to doing something as farfetched as direct suicide. |
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selenta
Subscriber Posts: 1774 Location: Seattle, WA |
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azathrael, um.... I fail to see in what way you're disagreeing with me... I said:
and you said:
It's not "obsolete" to compare two different calibers of items, in fact the point of a comparison is to see by how much they differ. Acknowledging Johann and Hitler are similar personalities and then claiming the numerous references to the "Next Hitler" aren't an attempt to compare the two is ridiculous. you're right that for an individual intelligence is a bad policy, but for the species in general it is a good one. The people who should be reproducing aren't and the people who shouldn't be are. This is more or less accepted by most people I thought, that's why lots of public physicians tell people repeatedly "DO NOT HAVE KIDS, DO NOT HAVE KIDS", I'm going to assume with the idea that anyone who listens shouldn't be having kids, and really intelligent people already know better.[/quote] |
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Deltakiral
Posts: 3338 Location: Glendora, CA (Avatar Hei from Darker than BLACK) |
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Wait are you saying you agree with social darwinism? That as a society we shouldn't help the less fortune, or tell them not to have children? I just finished a course of 1920 US, and that one of main theme from that era, how the rich were basically attempting to force people into poverty.
I agree with you here, spoiler[Hitler is the based model, and Johan is the perfect model, just like he was planned from his birth. But more importantly Johan could of become a greater Hitler had he wanted to, and could of run Germany. I fact that what all the politicians were attempting to do, but much like Hitler; Johan can't stand them either. ] Yummy I love the discussion, Has anyone here actually read another monster all the way or is everyone still on chapter 8? Till next time, Delta Kiral |
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Kruszer
 Posts: 7983 Location: Minnesota, USA |
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Well normally I like my anime to end more conclusively but this one just felt right so I'm not complaining. Ideally if the last scene with the spoiler[empty bed] was't there I would have liked it more but definitely appreciate the notion that a great and well written series deserves a unique twist at the end too. Why the frell this series is still unliscensed I'll never know. Somebody needs to get on the ball.
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Deltakiral
Posts: 3338 Location: Glendora, CA (Avatar Hei from Darker than BLACK) |
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But it is such a pain that no one will take a chance on such an amazing series, possibly if the movie ever takes off...... Till next time, Delta Kiral |
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selenta
Subscriber Posts: 1774 Location: Seattle, WA |
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Woah woah, it was not my intention to put my personal beliefs, or lack thereof, into this thread. I was merely bringing up a widespread idea to counter the more or less silly idea that intelligence is inherently a counter-productive trait for the survival of a species. The smarter a species is on this planet, the more resistant they are to changes in their environment and the more likely they are to adapt and survive. Humans however, sometimes take this to a whole different level than most species, one way is in the idea that people may be willing to die to protect others with whom they are not directly related to. This is obviously even more counter productive than my other example for the individual, but promotes the species as a whole. |
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DKL
 Posts: 1945 Location: California, USA |
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Woah, I'm gonna jump on this bus too since this series is damn brilliant...
but... uhh... I'm still re-watching, so I'll have some really conclusive stuff by the time I finish... I will say something on the subject though of the ending: spoiler[Let's see... I guess the most interesting thing about the series is that Johan actually IS a Monster... from what my memory is telling me, it seems that he started out with all these abilities of... whatever (manipulation). Mom knew this, so it scared the hell outta her. The cool scene is definately where Johan's mom tries to get rid of him, but during the heat of the moment, she isn't sure which one Johan is (because she had them dress-up the same so that people would be under the impression that she only had one kid... I think it was for those security check things since the Bonapart and gang were out looking for her... or, was it because of the government turmoil? I can't remember...). Yeah, I think she was trying to get rid of Johan since he was EVIL! (I'm pretty sure she tells Tenma this); while Johan seems to be confused as to what the facts are, I think it's pretty obvious that she wanted him out as the opportunity came up (thanks to Madhouse's great animation, this was conveyed rather competently). So, while, for most of the series, the idea of "the monster that's in us" is done away with in favor of "there exists a true monster in the world," it's nice that Urasawa tied it back in here... Also, Johan does indeed jump the police hospital... although, the reason why no one is on guard is because he's been in a coma for like... ever (his hair grew back, actually, so it must've been a long time since the last episode)] This is REALLY subject to change... I'm still in the process of re-watching and I'm making sure to take notes... I actually have some descriptions of how the manipulation works... I mean, if anyone is interested Up to episode 32 right now... But yeah, the above comments are iffy at best, I need more time with the show before coming to some rock-solid conclusions |
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Deltakiral
Posts: 3338 Location: Glendora, CA (Avatar Hei from Darker than BLACK) |
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First off you get more DAP for a great monster read.
Yes please share all of your thoughts about MONSTER don't be shy at all. I am sure there are plenty more who are interested in your idea on how the manipulation works. Onto your post now
I am going to disagree with you a little bit here. spoiler[First off I find it hard that any mother would try to get rid of her child. A mother's bond is something that is very powerful, and I doubt she wanted to get rid of Johan.]
Interesting point here I never really even thought about that up until now. spoiler[how long has it been since Johan was saved again by Tenma? The hair is an interesting piece of events to say the least, damn that makes me really really want to read another monster. But still the most dangerous man in Europe since Hitler, I think there would be guards posted at all times, I still the window prove some point. Although it could just be that it's an easy way to show escape, but it could of been just as easy to show Tenma coming back to the hospital and seeing two dead guards at the door. ] Once again I love the monster discussion, DKL are you reading another monster yet? I am enjoying so far of the chapters that have been translated. I would check it out if I were you. Till next time, Delta Kiral |
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DKL
Posts: 1945 Location: California, USA |
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I actually don't read books, but I may try to read that one since I wanna pick up as much info as possible...
ANYWAY, yeah, my points are debatable here and there (I need more evidence), but I'll have some solid answers by the time I fiish the series again (which is today or tomorrow... but... uhh... lemme do my school paper first)... heck, for all I know, my conclusions could be different when I get there. I'm trying to pinpoint all the motivation and crap (which is meticulous as hell, so I have been taking notes), and it is pretty hard since I have to think outside the box... I mean, how many people can actually understand serial killers? So, of course, the logic is different (which, I guess, is what makes it interesting). ... sure hope my sister gets up soon so I can continue watching (too noisy, might wake her) But yeah, it's good to see discussion on the series Uh... so far, I have been following Johan and here's what I've come up with now that I'm at episode 55: What did Johan consider spoiler[scary?] spoiler[It started out as Kinderheim (I think this is the first thing he really remembers). Upon reading “A Monster Without a Name,” he suddenly remembered the feeling of being alone in a world where no one knows your name (then, he actually showed this to that Schuwald guy to scare the hell out of him). Upon hearing his Kinderheim tapes, he became aware of the fact that he didn’t want to forget about his sister, Anna (mainly because the lessons at Kinderheim were slowly erasing his memories). Also, he understood “where he was supposed to go” after hearing whatever else he talked about during the drugged interview. “Where he was supposed to go” has something to do with the fact that on his hypnosis tapes, there was information pertaining to things about where his mother may be found in Prague (this is according to Zeman’s (the fat inspector dude with the nail-clippers) testimony earlier) ] that's all kinda vague and I should expand on it, but I need to finish up again to paint a better picture but yeah, I'm having better luck following everything this time... which is nice, because I got lost around episode 39 last time (which wasn't cool since all the info piled up and lead me to confusion) |
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DKL
Posts: 1945 Location: California, USA |
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The DKL EDITION: Comprehensive Monster Analysis
Okay, yet another monster thread... but, what's the difference? Well, as stated in the title, I'll go over the whole thing (I'm literally going to try to pin down all the motivation and whatnot) and there are no spoiler tags... this is pretty much only accessible to people who have seen the series in its entirety. Also, the lack of spoiler tags is necessary given the sheer length of how long my posts will be; spoiler tags will just make everything cluttered and confusing, so this is the best way to go. There is another thread though that I commented in recently... I'll link it... but, I sorta don't know how link threads (because it ends up using my login name or something); can someone help me out? (and teach me in the process) No, wait... here: Monster Ending ... sure hope that works... Also, for the most part... I'm doing away with a lot of my past theories, so it's best to not read into whatever I posted in the other thread at this point. People don't need to worry about me stopping mid-way; I'm already 35 pages in Microsoft Word, so there's no way in hell that I'm gonna stop now. Expect a new part to come out every 2 days (I’m up to part 8 as of this post). Each part will be about 4-5 pages long (in MS word). Also, I sent a PM to Tony and he said that it would be best to divide my comments into parts. So, today is part 1; the narration is pretty linear, so I'm serious when I say that everything is spoiled here. Oh, and on a side-note, as of now, please don't try to debate my points too thoroughly. Wait for me to finish up everything and if someone still has questions by the end... then that's good! I'll be able to fill in more gaps in my theories and stuff that way. Also, please allow for a degree of error in the locations or time or whatever; I literally cannot find too many good sources of research for the series online (outside of the MONSTER entry over at answers.com). Also, I haven't read the book thing, so toss in references if needed. But I am under the impression that you can "figure the series out" without really having to consult with the book Urasawa wrote as a supplemental. ANYWAY, all of this is pretty much stuff I’ve observed and/or discussed in the past. This is not an absolute interpretation of the series given that I make many assumptions, but I try my best to back everything up with as much evidence as possible; so far, I haven't really run into any walls, so that's a good sign. So yes, Part 1! It all starts out when someone in the Czechoslovakian government was doing breeding experiments between people to help form the “ideal” leaders; they used dozens of couples to do this. One day, a man from the army pursued a young lady who was studying at the University of Brno; it was to fulfill this mission of creating superior leaders. Something happened along the way though and the man actually fell in love with the woman; they decided to run away. While there, Poppe (I’m assuming it’s him behind the whole thing) catches up with them given that it was calculated that the man would eventually betray the experiment. The woman may have tried to escape once (where she eventually met up with Helenka Novakawa), but was caught at the Czechoslovakian border and sent back. After recapturing the woman, she was placed in a room in some secluded and secure hospital in order to oversee the eventual birth of the godsend twins; Poppe would come by a lot to sketch the woman a lot; this is where the woman realized that Poppe was behind the entire experiment and the possible death of the man she was in love with. The woman eventually confronted Poppe and claimed that she would never be able to forgive him and that the twins growing inside of her would eventually deliver the wrath of god onto him when they got bigger. During the time of her ninth month, the woman decided to try and escape (again) while everyone was off guard; while in the delivery room, she crawled into a ventilation shaft and jumped the barbwire fence; her attempt was unsuccessful given that her water had broken by the time she got out. After giving birth to the twins, the woman actually wanted to name them, but Poppe wouldn’t allow her since he thought that it was unnecessary to do so. Some stuff happened and at one point the woman was actually able to free herself from Poppe somehow (again). During 1980, we actually see Schuwald (or Shuberts… I don’t really know how its spelled, but we’ll find out when Viz gets this far) visit the woman over at 3 frogs; the twins have grown up somewhat (Johan isn’t dressed like Nina though). I suspect that they may have moved to Three Frogs around 1976 (about a year after the birth of the twins), since this is when Margot Langer (Helenka Novakawa) received a letter from her friend from Czechoslovakia (the woman). Since the STB started to poke around at one point (without Colonel Ranke’s knowledge), to evade detection, the woman made it out that she only had one child by having Nina and Johan dress-up the same (this almost threw off Tenma years later when he was doing his investigations in Prague). I can’t really say when this started happening, but it happened somewhere after Schuwald paid a visit… or maybe perhaps even before then, but the woman only had them dress up when they went outside. One day, the STB eventually caught on and Poppe (along with Capek and some other guy) came to three frogs in order to take one of the twins away (and their mother); this was done in order to conduct an experiment (probably one of those cases where they experiment on one and leave the other to see the differences). During the moment where the woman sees Poppe again, a monster arises in her and she suddenly feels the need to exact her revenge; an action of which that needs the correct twin for the job. (This is working under the assumption that Johan had some of these abilities of calculation, manipulation and murder from the start, which no evidence seems to really dismiss… or it could be Poppe’s book that created Johan (he was left with it for a few days), but I can’t seem to fit this in with the above theory of revenge, so I’ll just work on the assumption that a true monster was indeed born into this world somehow (a thought of which everyone seemed to move toward anyway, so at least the theme is consistent like this) and that Johan had many of these abilities from the start, but he was led astray BECAUSE of Poppe’s book and everything else). Going back… In her haste, however, the woman accidentally picks Nina over Johan; she also gives Johan the impression that she was trying to get rid of him given that she couldn’t make up her mind as to which one she should let go of. (Which isn’t really the case since she tells Tenma in the end that she actually loves Johan very much, but the monster inside of her brought out a situation in which she was actually willing to give Johan up (or for that matter ONE of her kids), hence Johan’s doubts of Tenma’s words of his mother’s love at the end of the series) After this incident, Nina is dragged off to the mansion of roses and the experiment begins; Nina is secluded in some dark place for a few days; as for the whereabouts of the mother, I wouldn’t know… if anything, she’s definitely not around the mansion of roses even though she was taken away by Poppe earlier as well (this is based on the statements of one of the residents of three frogs who Tenma interviewed). A (long) while later, Nina is freed from the dark room and is brought into this dining hall for the celebration of her “creation” and the experiment’s “achievement.” Unbeknownst to the people in the room however is the fact that Poppe was actually calling the quits on the whole thing; he decides to kill just about everyone in the room who is involved in the project by poisoning them using the ceremony wine (I don’t know where Capek is at this point however… he definitely wasn’t here though… I think he already fled to Frankfurt around this time or something; this is according to Milan’s testimony). But, before Nina up and runs away, Poppe leaves her with a few meaningful words of how she and her brother are both beautiful jewels that should never be turned into monsters (he’s actually in love with the mother as well, so he decides to set them all free). Also, I’m assuming that Nina didn’t tell Johan about this one detail about Poppe later on at three frogs (maybe she didn’t understand the significance of it back then). Nina is eventually able to make her way back to Three Frogs. Waiting for her there is her brother, Johan (whose real name I still don’t know yet… it’s probably hidden on purpose, to get the point through and keep the themes consistent), who’s still reading that book Poppe left. While there, Nina tells Johan all about her awful experience. While I’m not sure if Nina actually spent days telling this story, it eventually dawns on Johan to ask Nina where their mother went. After the torching of three frogs (presumably by Johan… or their mother, but I’ll just say Johan since it fits in pretty well with my theories), Johan and Nina make their way off to their mother (this could’ve happened before the torching, but I’m not sure, so I’ll just say after); their mother then asks them that they now have to go and live on their own, probably in order to get away from Poppe (a monster); Johan is heartbroken at this point given that he feels like he is an unwanted child upon hearing this and that he’s also still glaring over what had happened earlier; his mom goes a little crazy since she can’t get over what she did; Johan’s crying brings out the full force of her guilt (if you need to know where this info is located… check the end of episode 72 during the scene with Dr. Gillen in it). So, some other stuff happens and we eventually see the twins with their first set of temporary foster parents (I’m assuming that this is still in Czechoslovakia); Johan kills them while he gets Nina to go gather flowers some place else (so she won’t know what he did). This is the start of his efforts to get away from the monster (Poppe) given that he thinks there’s a better chance that they won’t be found if he kills all the people him and Nina associate with. Nina and Johan eventually make their way to the Czechoslovakian border where they are found, half-dead, by General Wolfe and 2 or 3 of his men. Upon checking the contents of Johan’s bag, Wolfe comes across a book (The monster without a name) and glances through its contents; Wolfe suddenly makes the decision to name the blonde-haired boy “Johan.” There’s this one scene where Wolfe asks Johan how he’s doing right after Johan wakes up from his long sleep; Johan replies that Wolfe will know how he feels “soon enough.” All of a sudden, one by one, people that Wolfe knew where slowly dying mysterious deaths; at one point, it probably dawned on Wolfe that it was all Johan’s doing (he was isolating Wolfe and stealing his “name;” Johan was recreating what he saw at the abyss when it was only him and his sister at the Czechoslovakian border in a world without names; this view is only accessible to people who have saved Johan’s life, such as Dr. Tenma); it was these actions, combined with the crumbling foundations of East Germany, that was probably the motivating factor behind Wolfe putting Johan into that orphanage: 511 Kinderheim (after all, Johan was a work of art that couldn’t have possibly been created at Kinderheim, and according to Hartmann, General Wolfe was the one who discovered Johan’s “talents”). Shortly before Johan’s induction, the old director of 511 Kinderheim left (we see him later in the series when Grimmer finds him hanging out in Prague using a Russian identity). Shortly after Johan’s induction (and probably somewhere around the time he was about to leave, since the Lieberts adopted him), he got everyone to kill each other, with the exception of 2 people. The first survivor is Hartmann; we see him during the episodes where Dieter makes his way into the series. The other survivor, who we see a lot later, is Christoph. Johan actually decides to use him in a scheme; since Johan was able to get people to kill each other, he made a prediction that everyone in the world would eventually fall into the same trap and that he should make preparations to ensure that him and his sister live it out till’ the end. As we all know, while Johan is definitely good at making all these large calculations and predictions of human behavior in his head, that forecast of his is considerably a little overkill… but then, people like Johan think about complicated things, so it would make sense that he’d eventually come to this conclusion given that he was actually able to get 50 people to kill each other without really doing anything (physically). Okay. We’re here in 1986 (I think), the Lieberts, with their newly adapted children (Anna came too since Johan didn’t want to leave without her), have defected to the west (a move considered most dangerous for politicians in the East, at the time). Since political defection is pretty big, the Lieberts get interviewed on TV. During the interview, Johan and Anna make it off to some acorn trees in a yard; there’s a moment where Johan declares that all the acorns here (or in the world, I can’t remember) belong to her (a neat way to say “I love you” to a sibling). Then it happens! The night that sets everything in the series in motion! On some rainy night, shortly after the interview, Poppe decides to go and visit the Lieberts since he saw the interview on TV once. When Poppe gets there, he only asks to see the twins for a moment and that there is no need to tell them that he was there. What he doesn’t know however is that Johan must’ve been vaguely awake during that moment he came into their room. Something happened! For some reason, even though Johan and Anna were able run away from Czechoslovakia, even though they have survived the turmoil in the East (Germany), even though they finally made it to the safeness that is West Germany… Poppe was able to find them. How was this possible? Johan killed almost everyone he came across in Czechoslovakia, after all, to ensure that “the monster” wouldn’t be able to find him and his sister. There was only one possible answer for Johan. Since Johan was really into that book “A Monster without a name” and since General Wolfe actually gave Johan the name “Johan” and since everyone has been calling him “Johan” for the longest time, Johan came to the conclusion that Poppe was actually a Monster that had been growing inside of him (again, Johan is a serial killer, so he works on a different logic than us regular otaku and human beings… notice how I segregated those groups, awesome). So, since Johan was under the impression that Poppe was a monster inside of him, he decided to let his sister get a head start and to have her run away from him; he killed the Lieberts so that there would be a better chance that he wouldn’t find Anna afterwards, but then, Anna (who also felt Poppe’s presence in the room) woke up and accidentally stumbled onto Johan’s murder (which may have been part of the plan to begin with). Johan then calmly asks Anna to take his gun and to shoot him in the head (since there’s a better chance of being killed and that it might possibly purge the “monster” inside of him should he survive); Johan is pretty okay with the whole thing given that he feels that him and Anna are one and the same (thanks to Poppe’s book). AND REMEMBER, at the end of “A Montser without a name,” Johan EATS his other half; Johan wants to avoid this given that he loves his twin sister. Oh yeah, notice how the window was broken when the police got there, awesome. Going back… all things considering, the reason why Anna shot Johan in the head was not because she understood Johan, or because he asked her to, but mainly because she couldn’t forgive him for killing all of the nice people they hanged out with before in Czechoslovakia. And there you have it! This is the end of part 1 of my analysis! |
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milcor1
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My goodness.... what's going to happen to some people when they finally make the anime for 20th Century Boys?
P.S. That's a whole lotta dedication there, but at least Monster is well worth a title to be sinking so many hours into. |
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