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adonais wrote:

That's the one....I'm still recovering form that scene...I kept thinking, this can't be happening, he did not just do what I think he did...but sure enough, the pervert was indeed spoiler[wearing Rie's amputated limbs tucked into his briefs like some ornate codpiece to a masquerade.] *shudder* What boggles my mind even more is that some scriptwriter actually came up with the idea in the first place...

Yeah, that was definitely the most psychologically creepy moment. For me, however, the most visually creepy Ooba moment was in episode 10:

Woah, those arms are NOT right! I did, like, a triple-take when I first saw that shot; I didn't even know what the hell was going on there the first time I watched it. I had to go back and view it again. And again. That's nightmare-fodder, that is.

I still don't understand how creepy old Ooba could have such a charming son, though.

Awww, just look at him! Could he be any sweeter?

A few random thoughts--

I also really loved that moment where Toshihiko is thinking of Yuka in bed, as Ooba discusses the inhumanity of Flesh Eaters. I agree, great directorial choice/well-written scene. That scene, bathed in a pink hue, also really brought to the forefront of my mind the remarkablly evocative color palette Kemonozume tends to use. Whole scenes and eps are frequently very richly "hued". The other scene that really comes to mind is the gorgeous golden scene in the ep 2 in the fountain. That is, though, only one example of many.

I'm very struck by this techinique though, as it is not one that I've felt has been used to much effect in anime (outside of dreamy shoujou-type sequences), and is a perfect example of one of the reasons I love animation in general-- when something is animated, you can do things that are not reflective of "true" reality to illict an emotional response that is more valid than if you had simply replicated what you would normally see.

This brings me to some thoughts about why the animation is so good in this show. On a different board, there was some discussion in a thread about how horrible the animation was in this show, how ugly it was. Well, of course, I began to defend the show, but it also occured to me that I'm not really versed in the details of creating animation, and might not the person best suited to discuss the matter.

So, perhaps this is to Cloe (or anyone else who knows a lot about the technical aspects of animation), but what really dictates "good" animation to you? Is it simply a matter of details chosen and "expressiveness"-- things largely based on opinion-- or are there some technical aspects of Kemonozume that are really well done, whatever opinion one might have about the art style? I remember someone mentioning things like the details of the hand movements in ep 1, as an example, when the Flesh Eater is turning a coin in his hand as he talks (I think that was from the anipages, perhaps?). But at the same time, I could also point out some really badly animated, very choppy bits, like how the Flesh Eaters in "monster" form are depicted in ep 1, or the final few minutes of ep 7 (and I've very much wanted to hear some opinions about this-- ep 7-- that final minute or two of talking heads-- it just felt like the budget, or time, ran out. I know the guy at anipages didn't seem willing to say he was dissapointed, or that he didn't like it, but yeah, I'll say it-- I was a little dissapointed.)

Here's what I wrote on the other board, for the sake of inclusiveness, but I'm also just looking for some more "educated" opinions on the subject--

Steve Berry wrote:

Re: the art, since you've watched through ep 4. It is atypical for anime, this is very true. Lines are very jagged and "rough", not the clean lines one is used to.

However, those who think this is visually ugly (imo) are probably just not appreciating what this show is aiming for in terms of animation-- rather than looking at details such as clean lines and anatomically correct proportions (neither of which Kemonozume really has), you've really got to pay attention to the frequent fluidity of body motion (versus the honestly very "chunky" animation of the monsters and fight scenes), the amazing emotional communicativness of over-emphasized postures and body language (watch Kazum's posturing and head-motions when he gets into the arguement with his father and Toshihiko in ep 1, as an example), and the very real details of things like very expressive facial contortions, etc. that are included. This is besides the inclusion of very vigorous and dynamic choices directorially-- things like, say,
a) special camera angles (see Toshihiko running in ep 1),
b) when the choice is made to have very long static shots versus hyper-kinetic edits (see Toshihiko gave at Yuka on the beach in ep 1),
c) when dialogue is included versus the deeper emotional resonance of silence (see the largely dialogue free sequence in the fountain in ep 2, or Toshihiko and Yuka making love in ep 1) or, finally,
d) the simple, yet very realistic details that are included that flesh out the entire world, yet are "incidental" and normally excluded from "better drawn" anime (see Yuka's mother fold her skirt under herself when squatting in the grocery store in ep 4, or the moths that flutter around the streetlight in ep 3, I believe).

When people rave over the animation in this show, these are the sorts of things ( I would assume) they are speaking of-- they're definitely all the things I appreciate when I'm watching the show (animation-wise). All these sorts of things are just not normally included in the typical "well-animated" show (read: drawn with clean lines and very fluid motion, with a lot of attention payed to backgrounds). I don't mean to talk badly about other shows that fall into that list, I watch lots of other anime too, and like that more normal style too-- shows like Mushishi, for example, which I think is very very beautiful, and which follows all the more typical concepts of anime beauty. Simply put, though, Kemonozume is really doing something entirely different that also can have lots of real beauty in it, if you know what to be looking for.

Beyond all that though, re: Ooba-- part of what I think makes him so creepy, is that to me, emotionally, he really knows these people, has been close to them, and the things he's doing to Rie, and Kazuma, and Toshihiko are so vile in part because he knows them so well-- it feels more like betrayal to me, than simply he being a "badguy".

Oh! and I also really liked the very "sketchy" intro to ep 11- every time I watch it I really get into it. Love it!! I also found the live action black flower getting flooded with ink at the end of it very interesting as well-- I couldn't quite tell why it worked, or what it meant, but somehow it gets a response out of me.

Cloe wrote:

I still don't understand how creepy old Ooba could have such a charming son, though.

Yeah, and actually, it sounded like the reason for going through all that trouble with Rie and Yuko might have been for the sake of his son in the first place spoiler[("I have found the strongest pair of arms for you now, son!")] (paraphrased, I don't remember the exact words)
Nice screenshots btw (looks like the monkey recovered from his date..)

EDIT: Now that I think about it, what a horrible ploy by Ooba, if this was the truth behind it. He wanted to have the spoiler[last two pure blood Shukujinki fight each other and give the victor's arms to his son ("you have to be stong!" etc). Except, those two being Yuko and Gakuto, of course they wouldn't fight each other, so Ooba took the arms off Gakuto and put them on Rie just so that he could instigate the fight with Yuko. (and that must have been Gakuto he was throwing darts at in the previous clips..)]

Aaarrgh...I just can't get over that Ooba guy.. And the scene in his office when the police came to take him out (not to dinner). To first trap them, then pump them full of helium and laughing gas (or whatever the heck that was) just for kicks, before finally offering them an instant cement blanket and dumping them into the sea. And he was just laughing himself all the way through it.

Last edited by Cloe on Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:16 am; edited 1 time in total

Steve Berry wrote:

So, perhaps this is to Cloe (or anyone else who knows a lot about the technical aspects of animation), but what really dictates "good" animation to you? Is it simply a matter of details chosen and "expressiveness"-- things largely based on opinion-- or are there some technical aspects of Kemonozume that are really well done, whatever opinion one might have about the art style?

Good animation, which actually isn't very subjective at all, is animation that falls under THE 12 BASIC PRINCIPLES OF ANIMATION, as defined by the legendary Frank Thomas and Ollie Johnston; it's what is taught in schools (taught to me, as well) and is basically the standards to what animation is measured to. The points you quoted from yourself are great points, and things I love about Kemonozume, but they're more a reflection of sophisticated directing than the actual animation--mainly, movement of characters.

But here, I'll go ahead and explain what exactly makes Kemonozume's animation above par, point by point with the 12 principles of animation.

1. Squash and stretch -- This is one of the most basic, if not THE most basic, concepts of animation, and one that goes largely ignored in anime, as Japanese animators tend to place more emphasis on the illustrative part of animation as opposed to the movement part of animation. Kemonozume, however, uses this technique in spades. For those who don't know, squash and stretch gives animated characters the illusion of weight by re-distributing the character's mass to different parts of the body.
Squash and stretch 1
Squash and strech 2

2. Anticipation -- This is really hard to convey in a screenshot, since it's about movement. This is basically the idea that before a person makes any major movement (let's say, getting up from a chair), there will be a smaller movement beforehand, the body shifting weight and getting ready to move. This is something that is SO often ignored in many anime titles, specifically shoujo titles, with characters just moving from one pose to another. But Kemonozume's animators are very good at paying special attention to realistic movement in this fashion. I think the opening sequence depicts this very nicely, both in the part with the man throwing his head back in agony and the guy swinging the sword around. There are too many examples of this in the show itself to list here, since anticipation is used in practically every shot. Look at Kazuma's movement here, for instance:

3. Staging -- This is about the background the characters working together to as a unit to convey a thought or emotion. Well, in Kemonozume, Yuasa clearly has talent for using color, obviously, to bring his characters and backgrounds together, but also uses angle. Check out this shot of the dojo:

4. Straight ahead and pose-to-pose animation -- This one's self-explanatory. Most of Kemonozume is pose-to-pose animation, obviously, since that's the best way to effectively create good character movement. But there are a few flashes of straight-ahead speckled around.

5. Follow through -- According to physics, the idea that when a main mass (let's say, a character) is moving, things like clothing, hair, limbs, or anything else hanging off the character are a little delayed, and when the mass stops, these things will continue to move for a bit before stopping. It's hard to say, really, what makes good follow through action, but take a peek at this movement of Yuka pulling down a curtain.
Yuka pulling down curtain
Yuka swinging curtain around

6. Slow-in and slow-out -- Also very hard to convey in screenshots. This, basically, is the idea that when something begins to move, and then comes to a stop, the movement will not be at one uniform speed, but varying speeds, moving fastest in the middle of the action and slowing at the beginning and end. Check out the movement of the children in this short clip:
Children!
It's subtle, but notice that all their actions: the footsteps, the head bobbing, their circlular movement--everything--follows this principle, which makes the movement more lyrical and less static.

7. Arcs -- This is the idea that nothing organic in the world moves in a straight line; we move in arcs. The body arcs, limbs follow arcs, and when anything living moves, it follows a curved line. I direct you to Ooba in episode 10, one of the many, many, many instances of arcing animation:

8. Secondary action -- This one is hard to explain. It's kind of like Follow Through, but it's more about the secondary motions within a main movement, as opposed to delayed motion. When a person is walking, for instance, the movement of the legs and body are the main movement, while the head bobbing and arm movement would be secondary action.
In this clip, look at how the arms and body of this charcter respond to each other; this is phenomenal animation. Animation by Michio Mihara

9. Timing -- Gosh, this one's hard to explain. It's one of the terms I use most often when talking about good animation, and probably the top principle I look for; it has to do with the speed at which things move, but it's much broader than slow-in and slow-out. I can't really put it in words well, so check out this clip of monkey action for some amazing timing. This is just one example, but the timing throughout all of Kemonozume was just superb.

10. Exaggeration -- YES! Kemonozume OWNS exaggeration, and there's no room for argument there. Just look at the opening credits, or any one of these screenshots:
Toshihiko
Bon-chan's arm
Monkey throwing
Toshihiko from a low angle
Now, I mentioned this before, but many anime titles, particularly shoujo, place emphasis on the illustration--the detail of the drawing itself--instead of the movement, and exaggeration becomes sacrificed for the sake of "beauty," if you will. But exaggeration is SO important to good animation, and Kemonozume definitely gets this right.

11. Solid Drawing -- Knowing and understanding the human anatomy is essential to animation. How can you accurately animate a human if you aren't familiar with the muscle and bone structure? It's obvious that the animators of Kemonozume know all about this and are wonderful draftsmen. Just look at this:

And here are some more:
Naked torso
Excellent hand
A nice gesture drawing and pose
Or any of the previous screenshots or clips. Those are great drawings. Regardless of whether you like the designs or not, those are great renderings of those designs, full of life.

12. Appeal -- This is the most subjective of the 12 animation principles, and the one where the Kemonozume haters have a bit of room for complaint. Just like there are people who will say the art of Triplets of Belleville is ugly. The character designs are definitely... unique. But my argument is this: the way they are animated and depicted on screen, there's too much personality there to be unappealing. Just look at this:

I can't see how anyone could hate that face.

Now, in addition to all this, there is even more care going into the animation. If you pay attention, the angles and lines of all the character movement never go in a straight line, or point completely vertically or horizontally to combat the edge of the frame; they are always very dynamic, pointing in very eye-pleasing angles. Like this:

That giraffe in the background isn't just a careless afterthought; its placement in the frame is very deliberate--look at how it balances out the composition and compliments Yuka's and Toshihiko's angles. In addition, the facial animation and expressions in Kemonozume are just incredible. Such amazing emotion is conveyed, like Yuka's depression in episode 7:

And take a look at this excellent body expression. This show is just full of that stuff.

And, of course, Yuasa's excellent direction effectively combines this awesome character animation with smart pacing, writing, and music, so the complete visual experience is unique and dynamic.

Steve Berry wrote:

Whole scenes and eps are frequently very richly "hued". The other scene that really comes to mind is the gorgeous golden scene in the ep 2 in the fountain. That is, though, only one example of many.

Oh my God, yes, yes! Just take a quick peek here and scroll down through the screenshots. They can almost be divided into color groups, can't they? The opening shot in ep. 1 with the fish was primarily blue--not just the background, but the characters were tinted in this blue hue as well--and when the male shokujinki begins talking about eating girls, the pallete switches to red. Again, EVERYTHING turns red, not just the background. The meeting back in the Kifuuken dojo is bathed in a warm yellow light, which dulls and turns a bit green when Kazuma begins his whole spiel on the buster suits. In fact, the warm yellow color is used to distinguish the dojo throughout the entire episode--it helps the place feel more like a home, to me, than just an organization. And, of course, all the beach scenes are blue. I've never seen any anime director, not even my beloved Koji Morimoto, use such care and attention when designing the color and look of each scene. It's something I noticed in Mind Game, too; go back and watch the part in the yakitori shop, right before Atsu flips his lid. It switches from a warm yellow to harsh red and stays that way until the end of the scene. It's such a basic, simple, perfect way to establish tone and mood!

[Edit - fixed spelling and grammar errors]

Cloe wrote:

....

Wow! What an amazing read, and all the references - this is great stuff, thanks for troubling yourself for make benefit glorious fellow Kemonozume fans Smile

(if there was a top-10 list of the best ANN forum posts, I'd nominate yours in a flash)

Thank you Cloe, very much. What am amazingly detailed reply. Most people would have simply posted the link (which I've visited before, but had forgotten about), but your very detailed analysis of each point as it pertained to Kemonozume was much, much appreciated. Plus all the screenshots, and links to actual animated clips. That must have taken quite a while.

You rock. Smile

edit-- ha!! someone already beat me. ::chuckle::

And I see, btw, that you've already watched ep 12, you dasterdly woman. I got the raw for 13, but I can't find 12 anywhere. Sad

Steve Berry wrote:

Plus all the screenshots, and links to actual animated clips. That must have taken quite a while.

Nah, finding appropriate screenshots and clips was amazingly easy, considering the high quality of the animation in this show. The hard part was narrowing them down, really! I wanted to include examples from a wide range of episodes, so that also made this take just a little longer.

Thanks for the compliments, though; I'm glad I was helpful. (Top 10 forum posts? Wow, that's an honor!) I always thought it would be beneficial to this forum to spread word of the 12 Principles around, so people could all have some common ground to refer back to when discussing animation quality (instead of just the drawing style or "smoothness," which are often the only two factors discussed around here, though they actually have very little to do with the quality of animated movement).

Last edited by v1cious on Sat Nov 11, 2006 7:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

just watched 13.

man... that was an insane last episode, i mean it was just all over the place, like they just decided to throw everything out the window. overall it was a good ending though.

What do you mean by "they decided to throw everything out the window"? I've watched the last ep raw, and although it was very strange at times, I still thought it was in the vein of much of the series-- lots of odd, screwball animation and peculiar comedy, with some interesting, more intimate moments between Toshihiko and Yuka. I haven't really posted on it yet, but that's largely because I've been waiting for it to be subbed.

**edit**
Ah, just saw that the last ep is out. Am dl'ing it now. Smile

Steve Berry wrote:

What do you mean by "they decided to throw everything out the window"?

i mean like it wasn't very coherent. things were happening a mile a minute. this isn't to say it was a bad thing, just... wow.

Too much to comment on and I don't feel like doing so... thus I'm pulling a cop-out.

v1cious wrote:

just watched 13.

man... that was an insane last episode, i mean it was just all over the place, like they just decided to throw everything out the window. overall it was a good ending though.

Sums up my thoughts in a nutshell. A very fitting ending to the series, overall. I honestly can't picture it finishing differently with its type of narrative.

Ooba certainly was one of the most memorable villains that I've seen in recent memory. So twisted, sick, and unremorseful... I loved every second that he was on screen in the latter half of the series.

Oh, I will add that spoiler[it was a nice touch after the credits with the monkey finding his mate at the end apparently with their children. Nice tie-in -- in an amusing way, of course -- with Toshihiko and Yuka's relationship.]

Finally, I know that it's extremely unlikely, but I'm seriously hoping that some company will license here over here for North America. A truly excellent series.

Well, as I wrapped up Kemonzume, I thought I'd post something. I'm a little surprised there hasn't been a little more chat re: it. First, this is very spoilery, so I'm not using any tags-- so if you haven't finished the show, etc etc, you've been warned.

You know, it's very interesting- I really liked this show-- I'm only following it and Black Lagoon right now-- have loved it's visuals, its more adult romance, it's ability to evoke sensual emotions, it's discussion of sex, etc. and yet... there's much about it that just seemed to float by, that never really connected with me. Definitively, Toshihiko and Yuka's relationship was the heart of the show to me, although I also really enjoyed what developed between Kazuma and Rie. And as long as the focus was on their relationships, or some oddball comedy involving the monkey or whatnot, the show really took off for me.

Thus, in the end, it was eps like 2 and 3, 6, and 9 that really stuck with me. Watching them eat dinner together, or kissing in the fountain, or hanging on the railing on the rooftop of the building, walking on the surface of the "sky", or the wonderfully goofy sign language conversations ("Who's baby is it?") are my favorite moments in the show. Unfortunately, this was not a show that, for me, was really driven by the badguy. I say unfortunately, because in the end, Ohba got so much screen time that he needed to be interesting. To me, though, he was very paper thin as a character. He was fascinating in an absurd way, but the truth was that it felt very obvious to me that the creators didn't really understand him or have a handle on him, in the same way that they understood what was going on between Toshihiko and Yuka. As such, the last few eps just weren't as interesting-- there was almost no screen time with T and Y (understandable considering their seperation), but neither was their any interaction between Kazuma and Rie (as they were seperated as well). Sadly, in the end, Ohba doesn't really interact with anyone as well.

All this lead to 3 eps finishing off the series that were fascinating to watch, with vigorous animation, great music as usual, and very intersting moments, and yet... I didn't really connect in the same way I had been doing before. I was really glad they wrapped up with the sky-diving scene, which felt more in the vein on the rest of the show, but ... I dunno. I wanted to connect more, and all I got was a lot of Ooba monologing.

I'm curious about other opinions on this. That's my take on it. I really like a lot of the show-- absolutely adored certain sections, which still stay with me-- but, the plot just sort of left me cold. Kazuma was, to me, the most interesting character, but he really kind of got short changed there at the end, in terms of a death that "meant something" or had some real emotional resonance. The monkey was awesome. Bon was terribly cute. Toshihiko was fine, as long as he was with Yuka, and their relationship was being explored, but he was never very conflicted, nor did I feel like he really grew a whole lot-- I was far less interested in his conflict with Ohba than I was with Kazuma's or Yuka's or Rie's. Still, there was a lot to like about the show too, and even in these last few eps there were some very interesting scenes, particularly the "scratchy charcoal" animation of Ohba in (I believe) ep 13, and Yuka trying to cut off her arms for Toshihiko.

I dunno, perhaps I'm being nit picky?

Steve Berry wrote:

I'm curious about other opinions on this. That's my take on it. I really like a lot of the show-- absolutely adored certain sections, which still stay with me-- but, the plot just sort of left me cold. Kazuma was, to me, the most interesting character, but he really kind of got short changed there at the end, in terms of a death that "meant something" or had some real emotional resonance. The monkey was awesome. Bon was terribly cute. Toshihiko was fine, as long as he was with Yuka, and their relationship was being explored, but he was never very conflicted, nor did I feel like he really grew a whole lot-- I was far less interested in his conflict with Ohba than I was with Kazuma's or Yuka's or Rie's. Still, there was a lot to like about the show too, and even in these last few eps there were some very interesting scenes, particularly the "scratchy charcoal" animation of Ohba in (I believe) ep 13, and Yuka trying to cut off her arms for Toshihiko.

I dunno, perhaps I'm being nit picky?

First off let me thank Cloe for that fantastic post about the 12 basic principles of animation. Extremely interesting read.

I see where you're coming from Steve. I expected Kazuma to get a lot more story/screen time and Toshihiko's character appeal sort of wore off towards the end of the series. I was also hoping that the monkey was more than just the random comedic relief character and was perhaps the reincarnation of a previous dojo master. Ohba was suitably creepy, but for some reason still extremely funny.

Yah, lots 'o spoilers for the ending episodes below - stop reading now if you haven't seen the whole series.

Steve Berry wrote:

Well, as I wrapped up Kemonzume, I thought I'd post something. I'm a little surprised there hasn't been a little more chat re: it.

I thought the same, but at least for my part, I was rather wrapped up in my own thoughts about the ending of it all and wasn't sure what to say about it.

Steve Berry wrote:

You know, it's very interesting- I really liked this show-- I'm only following it and Black Lagoon right now-- have loved it's visuals, its more adult romance, it's ability to evoke sensual emotions, it's discussion of sex, etc.

Aye. This show stands out in my mind by it's uniqueness on so many levels. The visuals for sure, but equally a number of scenes whose contents and/or execution were just delivered in a way that I have never encountered in anime before, and therefore struck me as particularly moving, or fascinating. In particular, like you already mentioned, the adult oriented pitch of the central love story, and how the unspoken feelings were conveyed (this was really masterly done!). I mean, we do get tired sometimes of all those teenage shoolboy/girl anime romances.. Also the surrealism which was both part of the story but also deeply ingrained in the visuals, just gave me that shivering David Lynch sort of feeling on several occasions - especially toward the ending episodes.

Steve Berry wrote:

Definitively, Toshihiko and Yuka's relationship was the heart of the show to me, although I also really enjoyed what developed between Kazuma and Rie.

I agree - Kazuma and Rie definitely grew linearly in interest and charm throughout, while I felt like the Toshihiko-Yuka relationship sort of plateaued around episode 6 or so, and became rather formulaic after that. Nothing bad about that, just, no surprises either. So in all I guess there was a good balance over time between developing the stories of these two (albeit very different) couples.

Steve Berry wrote:

in the end, Ohba got so much screen time that he needed to be interesting. To me, though, he was very paper thin as a character. He was fascinating in an absurd way, but the truth was that it felt very obvious to me that the creators didn't really understand him or have a handle on him,

I found Ohba quite fascinating through the middle part of the story, when we still did not quite know what he was all about. As it gradually became clear where things were heading, he regrettable became demoted from interesting to merely absurdly and hilariously detestable in my book. Although, I have to concede that there are still some holes of his backstory that would need to be filled in before I could completely understand him.

I was also somewhat annoyed about plotlines that were initiated, or at least hinted at, but never developed. But then who knows what was going on behind the scripting scenes, maybe those ideas simply didn't pan out in the end, and wouldn't have made for any better conclusion than what we actually got.

In particular I'm thinking about this mythical place, a tempel or whatever it was, where according to the legend shokujinki could become normal humans. This was around ep 5 or so? I forget. But anyway, as this was mentioned briefly, it appered that it could potentially beome a major plot element, and therefore it aroused some interest and quiet speculation in the viewer's minds (well at least in mine..). But as that story was never developed, we have to conclude it was nothing more than a fairy tale of zero significance, and even the instance of bringing it up before then somehow lost its meaning.

Same goes for the monkey, although to a lesser degree. I mean, I agree with the poster above, Kidder, who speculated about the monkey being special somehow, whether through reincarnation or some other means. What was the deal with Toshihiko following a monkey around calling him "sensei" otherwise? And in the end the mutt turned out to be just another brachiating comic relief, albeit a good one.. Wink

But in closing, even though some things took a different turn than some of us had expected or hoped for, I think we can still agree that Kemonozume is in a class of its own; a truly remarkable achievement, a deeply moving as well as entertaining experience, and a veritable tour de force of animation and storytelling not to be surpassed lightly in the near future!

Re: the mythical place where Flesh-Eaters could turn into humans-- my understanding was that that was Ohba's business, in the end, and that he was "luring" them to him so he could use their arms. I think he explains the fake "mythical" name in ep 9 when he meets with Toshihiko in the convenience store, and I think he goes into greater detail in one of the last 3 eps-- perhaps when he's talking to Rie, or Yuka, or Toshihiko-- there's a visual of all the other Flesh Eaters he's killed, and he explains how he got them, in part (by "fulfilling" the prophecy for them).

Re: the monkey-- the idea for me was that much of what Kemonozume was about was this discussion of what it means to "do as one wishes." Toshihiko must learn to believe in something that he's willing to truly give himself to--Yuka-- rather than abide by the obligations of the Kiffuken, where he ends up being a constipated failure. This relates back to his father's brief discussion with him in ep 1, I believe, as well as perhaps the one where his father is the fish on the dinner plate (... Smile

...loved that bit). Ohba presents the other vision-- namely, the strong, and only the strong, are allowed to do as they wish. But in some ways, the two are very similar.

Anyways, the monkey seemed to me to be the true "embodiment" of the philosophy of Toshihiko and of the show-- calm, playful, dedicated to the simple fulfillment of his desires (note how easily he chases the female monkey, or splashes in the leaves). He always does as he wishes, and that always tends to guide things to the best resolution-- just like, for example, when the blood gets splattered on his face, as Yuka is trying to cut off her arm, and annoyed, he snatches the sword from her, or when he (fortuitously) pops Ohba's eyes out, while hunting for the image of his loved one. That's mostly where I thought the creators were coming from in re: to the monkey.

Finally-- re: Ohba-- I think you're point that you'd "need to know a little bit more about Ohba to really understand him" is perfectly put. I never really believed or felt his motivations. I was always waiting for more revelations re: the original trio, or perhaps that Ohba was trying to do something good, and had gone astray. Perhaps that's true in some way, but we never really see it on screen, and that makes for bad writing, IMO. Largely, he goes unexplained. I kept thinking, after finishing the show, how much more could have been done if they had used that ep about the other Kiffuken member who falls and love and gets eaten by the Flesh Eater differently (ep 5). I would have loved to have known more about Ohba as well, if they're going to go the path they did-- giving him this much time at the end.

Anyways, the show was very good, despite all this. And I think we've all pointed out repeatedly how many wonderful things went on. Bums me out a bit about the flaws, as endings that don't deliver the goods you're looking for tend to sour an experience a bit (versus other flaws), but Studio 4c is awesome anyways, and I'm very glad the show was made. I'm really looking forward to their next movie.

Although I am curious to see what Cloe thinks as well. Wonder when she'll pop up again.

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