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yoshiyukiblade



Joined: 10 Nov 2012
Posts: 303

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:30 am Reply with quote
@MaxSouth Things going unnoticed is one of the things you'll have to add to your suspension of disbelief cabinet for this show because they're not going to be any more careful about it in the near future. Because man, (this isn't a spoiler if you've seen Index S1) spoiler[Accelerator vs Touma], how does THAT go unnoticed? Very Happy
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One-Eye



Joined: 08 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:54 am Reply with quote
Mikasa has no problem using her abilities to hack into computer systems and video feeds. Why shouldn't anybody else be able to do this? Yeah, if you look at some anime stories too closely they won't hold up, but part of it depends on your ability to suspend disbelief and just enjoy the ride. Of course there are some things that might stretch disbelief too much.

On that note, did I misunderstand the subtitles? Did they say that it was too late to call the Anti-Skill for Felbi? If I read that correctly then WTH? Are they just rent-a-cops? Confused

yoshiyukiblade wrote:
Because man, (this isn't a spoiler if you've seen Index S1) spoiler[Accelerator vs Touma], how does THAT go unnoticed?Very Happy

Well they have managed to hide that spoiler[the supercomputer in the sky is no longer there]. Also in this season they've come right out and said that there is a spoiler[dark side to Academy City]. Perhaps many of the shenanigans spoiler[are being allowed or covered up because that's what the powers that be want]?

As far as this season goes...I'm a little bored to be honest. I think I enjoyed the first season of Railgun more and I know I liked the first season more than Index.
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MrTerrorist



Joined: 20 Oct 2010
Posts: 816

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:10 am Reply with quote
@MaxSouth So the problem you cannot take sci-fi seriously because you lack a suspension of disbelief?
It's fiction, you don't have to take everything seriously and it's not the creators fault that they didn't foresee the future things we have now today.

For example, you said you couldn't enjoyed Akira because the movie takes place in the future but has blinking tube TVs which are outdated and should have flat screen TVs or 3D projectors. You have to remember that Akira was made in the 1980s so the author/director didn't know or foresee the technology we have in the future/today. I don't nitpick about this because it was made in the past by people who guess what the future would look like during their time.
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yoshiyukiblade



Joined: 10 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:20 am Reply with quote
That's what makes futuristic sci-fi so difficult to pull off, which was his point. You have be able to extrapolate the future state of technology and civilization carefully and intelligently. Otherwise, it looks irresponsible and sloppy. I think GitS wasn't too bad in doing this. Entire scenarios and unusual cases were built around fairly sound futuristic vision... cases which simply can't exist today due to the fact that many facets of their lifestyle simply don't exist yet.

I don't think the Raildex series are really aimed to be put under that kind of scrutiny though. Identifying which shows to take seriously, semi-seriously and not seriously can be a challenging task. It's especially true with this kind of show that mixes in bits of reality, but has scenarios that can "throw off" your understanding of what they can get away with or not.
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Key
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003
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Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:58 am Reply with quote
One-Eye wrote:
Mikasa has no problem using her abilities to hack into computer systems and video feeds. Why shouldn't anybody else be able to do this?

Mikoto is a Level 5, though, and the franchise has always implied that a top ranking is as much about versatility of potential power use as it is about actual raw power. Thus it's entirely reasonable that Mikoto can do things with her power that no one else with a similar power (but lower ranking) can.
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Spotlesseden



Joined: 09 Sep 2004
Posts: 3307
Location: earth

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:24 am Reply with quote
One-Eye wrote:
Mikasa has no problem using her abilities to hack into computer systems and video feeds. Why shouldn't anybody else be able to do this? Yeah, if you look at some anime stories too closely they won't hold up, but part of it depends on your ability to suspend disbelief and just enjoy the ride. Of course there are some things that might stretch disbelief too much.


There are other nameless hackers in the index series, but they can't use Mikasa's method because they don't have that power.

This is fantasy and scifi and an anime series, what's so disbelief about it compare to other anime? They have magicians, espers for god sake. There is no magicians in this world. Churches in Index's world are super strong, they can easily wipe out the US military in our world.
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MaxSouth



Joined: 11 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:27 pm Reply with quote
Now at episode 10 of the second season. As expected, I like this season more, despite many parts of irrelevant petty talks and events. But the writing is still weak: main heroine continues to draw unbelievable conclusions from situations -- all for the sake of dragging scenario on, to make her discover obvious "dramatic revelations".

Anyway, I like the lesbian girl, and all of the kittens in the series. I also like flower girl, except for the end of the first season, where she was made by authors to be super stupid and annoying.
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One-Eye



Joined: 08 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:56 pm Reply with quote
Spotlesseden wrote:
One-Eye wrote:
Mikasa has no problem using her abilities to hack into computer systems and video feeds. Why shouldn't anybody else be able to do this? Yeah, if you look at some anime stories too closely they won't hold up, but part of it depends on your ability to suspend disbelief and just enjoy the ride. Of course there are some things that might stretch disbelief too much.

There are other nameless hackers in the index series, but they can't use Mikasa's method because they don't have that power.

This is fantasy and scifi and an anime series, what's so disbelief about it compare to other anime? They have magicians, espers for god sake. There is no magicians in this world. Churches in Index's world are super strong, they can easily wipe out the US military in our world.

I wasn't criticizing nor was I questioning why other people can't use the same method as Mikasa. I was making a comment based on some people stating that it didn't make sense with cameras all over the city that things happened and no one knows anything about it. My point was that espers could hack the cameras and security like Mikasa (not exactly like her) or that groups within the city have the leverage or resources to cover things up. Sorry if my post wasn't clear on that.

Key wrote:
Mikoto is a Level 5, though, and the franchise has always implied that a top ranking is as much about versatility of potential power use as it is about actual raw power. Thus it's entirely reasonable that Mikoto can do things with her power that no one else with a similar power (but lower ranking) can.

Mikoto has versatility which allows her to do multiple things with her abilities. However, this does not mean there are no lower level espers with abilities that can do the same (hack a surveillance system) or specialized ones which can get around security systems. I believe spoiler[Uiharu] has some high proficiency with computers and is known to do some impressive things even though she is a level 1. Again my original point was that in this scifi/fantasy universe there are ways of working around things like security systems or video cameras.
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MaxSouth



Joined: 11 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:20 pm Reply with quote
In episode #14, the fake drama continues: the heroine says she wants to spoiler[go to be killed by Accelerator, and magic-cancelling guy somehow does not allow her to go. This is very lame since heroine could have just jump to the bridge side and go easily unstopped that way, and yet authors made so she is stuck with the guy and can not go -- only to unfold this whole fake drama.]
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Key
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:46 pm Reply with quote
One-Eye wrote:
Mikoto has versatility which allows her to do multiple things with her abilities. However, this does not mean there are no lower level espers with abilities that can do the same (hack a surveillance system) or specialized ones which can get around security systems. I believe spoiler[Uiharu] has some high proficiency with computers and is known to do some impressive things even though she is a level 1. Again my original point was that in this scifi/fantasy universe there are ways of working around things like security systems or video cameras.

That character's powers have nothing to do with the character's hacking ability, though.

And MaxSouth: Boy, you're just looking for excuses to hate on the series, aren't you? The drama here is no more fake than anywhere else in anime and better than a lot of other series. If you truly think that there are logical breakdowns in that part then you're entirely missing the point of what's going on there, which was that spoiler[Mikoto didn't really want to go through with it - even though she felt she had to - and was looking for some excuse to be stopped].
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One-Eye



Joined: 08 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:55 pm Reply with quote
MaxSouth wrote:
In episode #14, the fake drama continues: the heroine says she wants to spoiler[go to be killed by Accelerator, and magic-cancelling guy somehow does not allow her to go. This is very lame since heroine could have just jump to the bridge side and go easily unstopped that way, and yet authors made so she is stuck with the guy and can not go -- only to unfold this whole fake drama.]

Hmmm...I really didn't see it that way. spoiler[Misaka doesn't really want to die, but she's overwhelmed by the situation. All she can think of to stop the experiments is to get herself killed. She's not in a rush to get killed. She can't beat Accelerator, but neither can she beat Touma. So it makes sense that she clings to the hope that Touma might be able to beat Accelerator even though she feels that it isn't his fight and its her responsibility]. There's going to be emotion involved if you are facing your possible death and struggling with emotions of responsibility and guilt. I don't consider that fake.

Key wrote:
That character's powers have nothing to do with the character's hacking ability, though.
I'm aware of that Key, but that wasn't my point. Again there are ways around security systems in this world. I'm sure Misaka is not the only one that can do it and yes you don't even have to be an esper to hack your way around stuff.
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MaxSouth



Joined: 11 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:31 am Reply with quote
Key: As I wrote, I like this series, I rated "Good" even the first season, so you do not need to tell me how I feel about it.

On the substance of matter: the heroine was shown spoiler[trying very hard to go around the magic-cancelling guy, spending terawatts of power and hurting him, even after he said he is not going to fight/defend himself. So while she wanted to be stopped, she was shown to be willing to give a honest effort to not to.

There would be no need for this theatrics if she just wanted to be talked out going to be killed by Accelerator. She wanted to be stopped. And not before she gave her all, trying.

So authors obviously meant the scene where the magic-cancelling guy was a real blocker for her, and yet he could not be that; heroine's effort to go was meant to be honest, even though she wanted to be stopped, and yet it was not -- because authors forgot (or thought that views will not notice) that she could just over jump the guy using the sides of the bridge.

The heroine was not meant to be cheater like "I am going to pretend I can not just over jump the magic-cancelling guy, and this is the way how I plan to be to stopped from suicide action".]
So this scene is fake no matter how you turn it.

Also, for the sake of inventing drama, authors instilled in main heroine spoiler[the feeling of guilt for the deaths of more than ten thousand of her clones. This is totally cheap way to invent drama, because she allowed to take her DNA for curing purposes, not for mass production of her clones for them to be killed.

And even she would not agree to give DNA to scientists for any purpose at all, it would not be issue to take her DNA sample without her knowing anyway.

So there is just no way to conclude any level of guilt of heroine here. But authors thought that clones being killed is not dramatic enough, so they went over the top and made the main heroine completely mental and insane about this non-existent guilt,]
again making an aspect of this show fake.
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One-Eye



Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Posts: 1536

PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:36 am Reply with quote
MaxSouth wrote:
On the substance of matter.....So this scene is fake no matter how you turn it.

I may not be understanding everything completely from your post, but I would like to say a few things here. First, she could have fried him completely if she really wanted to, spoiler[since he was not protecting himself. So she was holding back]. You keep saying that she could have spoiler[just jumped and gone down the side of the bridge]. That she didn't spoiler[shows that she deep down wanted another alternative to what she was planning and second in her highly emotional distraught state she was not going to think rationally about getting around Touma]. Look she's facing spoiler[either her own death or walking away and letting a monstrous experiment continue that kills several thousand clones. She's struggling and can't find another solution by herself, which is part of the point. Misaka likes to handle things on her own and not rely so much on others and she's faced with a situation where she can't solve it by herself]. Now could it maybe have been told in a smoother fashion? Sure. Does it recycle some anime tropes and maybe it feels a little forced? I could see that. But I don't think what happened was out of character and it was building up to that point the entire arc. After all she had been shown to be continuously spoiler[frustrated in her attempts to shut down the experiments. So her being emotional and a little irrational makes sense].


Quote:
[spoiler]Also, for the sake of inventing drama, authors instilled in main heroine spoiler[the feeling of guilt for the deaths of more than ten thousand of her clones. This is totally cheap way to invent drama, because she allowed to take her DNA for curing purposes, not for mass production of her clones for them to be killed.

And even she would not agree to give DNA to scientists for any purpose at all, it would not be issue to take her DNA sample without her knowing anyway.

So there is just no way to conclude any level of guilt of heroine here. But authors thought that clones being killed is not dramatic enough, so they went over the top and made the main heroine completely mental and insane about this non-existent guilt,]
again making an aspect of this show fake.

Ok I can kind of agree with you on this point to a certain extent. I did find Misaka feeling guilty about her DNA being used to make the clones a little hard to swallow. After all she was a child when this happened and her ability to understand what was going on would obviously be limited. I think she's smart enough to understand that it isn't difficult to trick a child. Also where was her family to prevent this from happening? It did feel a little too easy or contrived to me and yea maybe it was done to hype up the emotional drama. I think if they had portrayed her as feeling violated or enraged that someone would twist what had originally been an attempt to help people and instead its being used to slaughter living beings then it would have worked better for me.


Last edited by One-Eye on Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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Nayu



Joined: 23 Dec 2010
Posts: 676

PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:43 am Reply with quote
MaxSouth wrote:
making an aspect of this show fake.


Edited away response. Not feeding this one.
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Key
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:25 am Reply with quote
One-Eye wrote:
Quote:
[spoiler]Also, for the sake of inventing drama, authors instilled in main heroine spoiler[the feeling of guilt for the deaths of more than ten thousand of her clones. This is totally cheap way to invent drama, because she allowed to take her DNA for curing purposes, not for mass production of her clones for them to be killed.

And even she would not agree to give DNA to scientists for any purpose at all, it would not be issue to take her DNA sample without her knowing anyway.

So there is just no way to conclude any level of guilt of heroine here. But authors thought that clones being killed is not dramatic enough, so they went over the top and made the main heroine completely mental and insane about this non-existent guilt,]
again making an aspect of this show fake.

Ok I can kind of agree with you on this point to a certain extent. I did find Misaka feeling spoiler[guilty about her DNA being used to make the clones a little hard to swallow. After all she was a child when this happened and her ability to understand what was going on would obviously be limited. I think she's smart enough to understand that it isn't difficult to trick a child. Also where was her family to prevent this from happening?] It did feel a little too easy or contrived to me and yea maybe it was done to hype up the emotional drama. I think if they had portrayed spoiler[her as feeling violated or enraged that someone would twist what had originally been an attempt to help people and instead its being used to slaughter living beings] then it would have worked better for me.

Don't think we need to spoiler-tag all of this, since it's content that happened a few episodes previous and has been openly discussed in this thread previously.

When it comes to feelings of guilt, you can't apply logic. Logically speaking, yes, Mikoto has no reason to feel guilty about it, since this situation was twisted in directions well beyond her knowledge or intent. Given that she's typically been portrayed as a sensitive and caring individual, though, and given that she tends to take responsibility onto herself and is growing into the age where people are most self-centered (she's a teen, so of course everything is about her), I find it entirely reasonable that she wouldn't think that way. The clones were still created from her DNA and wouldn't exist without her, so of course she cares about them and feels responsible for them. I see nothing strange or that's even remotely a stretch about that.

Besides, from a purely storytelling standpoint, a hero/heroine taking on a greater burden of responsibility than is warranted by circumstances is a very common occurrence across all genres.
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