Forum - View topicOpinions on fansubs and HK pirate DVDs (ranting thread)
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Porcupine
 Posts: 1033 |
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Recently there has been a lot of discussion here questioning the morality, legality, and effects that fansubs and HK pirate DVDs have on the anime industry. The threads in question were closed because the arguments regarding fansubs and pirating heated up and strayed away from the original thread topics, which were related but about slightly different things.
So here's a thread dedicated to this topic for us all to rant in. Let's all try not to flame each other here so that it can hopefully stay alive at least for a little while, but I'm sure heated discussions may arise so let's try to expect that as well. Any discussion related to fansubs and HK pirate DVDs is welcome here, including discussions about their subtitle and video quality, etc. To start off this discussion let me give my own views. I doubt anyone will agree with all of them but I know many people will agree and disagree with parts, so this will hopefully start the conversation off well. First off, I will state that I absolutely have no regard for 'morality' or 'ethics' in any form. To me these words are meaningless hypocritical words of the English language, which some other languages do not even have equivalents of. However this doesn't mean that I act 'immorally', and people should feel free to discuss these concepts here if they so choose. It's just me who thinks in a more detached, machinelike way. With regards to the virtues and vices of fansubs and HK DVDs, I consider these factors in the following order: 1) selfish benefits of the individual consumer who obtains these items, 2) impact of their existence on the anime industry, and 3) what the law says and does regarding them. Let's discuss 3) first. I think it is fairly inarguable that the selling, downloading, and creating, of all fansubs and HK DVDs is against the law in most countries. The one exception possibly being Hong Kong itself, since they do not fully obey international copyright law, which is the main reason "HK DVDs" come from Hong Kong in the first place. But while technically illegal, it is very hard for the law to actually stop the distribution of fansubs and HK DVDs in practice, so this is one good area to discuss. I think that it is easier to stop the distribution of HK DVDs than fansubs, so this is one important aspect to consider. Now let's discuss 2). I believe that both HK DVDs and fansubs are fairly damaging to the anime industry, and if it were up to me I would adopt a totally hardline stance and enforce the law via any practical method I could think of. This isn't what happens in real life though, yet, but I think that's what should be done for the anime industry's maximum benefit. I do not buy the argument that fansubs are okay simply because the fansubbers themselves do not profit from their actions. First, that's not even entirely true, as a few dishonest people do try to sell fansubs. Second, many (not all) people who download fansubs for free do not ever buy the same title legitimately, even if they could afford it. These people definitely hurt the industry, and fansubs are what allow them to exist. Third, just because one cannot afford anime doesn't mean it is okay to download for free, so another group of fansub watchers (kids who claim they have no money) should not be completely off the hook either. Oftentimes they could get their parents to buy them at least a little bit of legit anime if they had to, and even if they couldn't, some people (not necessarily me, on this point) would still argue that they then don't deserve to watch. Finally, let's discuss 1). Regardless of 'what's good for the industry' or legality issues, most people are selfish beings when it comes down to it, myself included. Therefore even though I think fansubs and HK DVDs should be stamped out mercilessly, I do not criticize the actions of anime piraters. If they download everything and never buy anything, that's fine. They should do that, if they want to and can, because most people are selfish anyway. Furthermore, in this case, the actions of any one consumer have no effect on the industry anyway (only as a collective can we buyers change the industry) so whether you personally buy legitimate domestic anime or pirate it, makes no difference to anyone but yourself. So I have no problems with people who pirate everything. That is my view on things. Personally I pretty much buy all my anime domestically, even though I am selfish, for an entirely different reason. I care a lot about video quality and therefore refuse to watch fansubs. I find nothing less than DVD quality to be acceptable, and in some cases I am dissatisfied even with the official domestic DVDs themselves if they are not encoded well. Also, discussion on the pirating and free distribution of things like anime music CDs, mp3s, games, etc is welcome here as well. My personal views on these issues are not necessarily the same as they are for the animes themselves, but my post is already long enough so I'll end here. Let the ranting begin! |
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Zalis116
Moderator
 Posts: 6867 Location: Kazune City |
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In terms of Internet downloads vs. HK DVDs, I tend to look at DLed anime as a "lesser of two evils." Yes, both are illegal and industry-damaging, but at least DLing doesn't put money in the shady figures and criminal types who run the production and distribution of bootlegged anime. And not all HK DVDs have rediculously bad "Engrish" subtitles--many are ripped from the R1 source, compressed to fewer DVDs, and sold to buyers who think they're getting the real thing because it has the officially translated subtitles and the English audio track. I certainly learned to look for those back when I bought bootlegs, first unknowingly, and later knowingly  (I've since gotten rid of those DVDs and bought legit product for everything I ever owned in that format.)
At least downloaders know they're doing something not-right (particularly with DVD-rips), but I've talked to people IRL who've bought bootlegs and argued up and down that they were legitimate products. To me, that second group is more dangerous because they want to buy anime and support the industry, and the industry could be getting those dollars. I'd advocate an education campaign via DVD-inserts, conventions, magazines, and other visible places about the nature of bootlegs. Then again, that could give people ideas like, "Wow, there are all these illegal-yet-cheap DVDs out there, I'm going on a spree!" Last edited by Zalis116 on Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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firestarter
 Posts: 27 Location: 永久にdothackers |
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You may have a valid point, but video piracy will never end in this life time or the next. In some situation down loads some time have a positive effect, which in case if the anime is very enjoyable those people would go out and actually buy the original. I have done this many time to see if a animation was worth buying, so most of the time I would download it, if it is good then i would buy it and keep the original close and just view the DL, where as some time i just rip the case open order pizza and a 2 litter soda, slap on the projector and dvd player and had a nice day
 of continues back to back episodes until my eyes roll back and had fallen a sleep. 
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Pinkwings
 Posts: 234 |
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I need fansubs because I dont plan on spending 20 dollars on an anime dvd only to find that I dont like it. I did that about 3 times and I plan on never doing that again. Fansubs are like previews for me. If I like what I see then I will buy it. For example I found out about Loveless through fansubs and I now own all the dvds and volumes 1-3 of the manga. Btw I dont rent anything. That includes movies, anime, or video games. So thats out of the question. I do buy what I like though.
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HeeroTX
Posts: 2046 Location: Austin, TX |
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I disagree with this statement in one VERY significant way. It assumes that all people that watch fansubs (or even a significant portion of them) WOULD buy the product in the absence of the fansub. Would you buy "The Simpsons", "Lost" or "Battlestar Galactica" DVDs without ever seeing the accompanying shows on TV? Remember that in their source country, MOST (not all) anime ARE tv shows. There are two "extremes" of anime fans, there are the "otaku" who will buy regardless of fansubs, possibly regardless of quality if you go far enough to extreme, simply because of their love for the title, or the talent, or whatever. Then you have the other extreme, the "blase" people who will simply find something else to do if you yank the fansubs. The argument rests on the "middle ground", the people who MIGHT buy the DVDs if there were no fansubs, but instead don't since they watch on fansubs, AND the people who DO buy DVDs after watching fansubs, who wouldn't if the fansub wasn't there. I have bought several anime/manga because of fansubs/scanlations and I have chosen NOT to buy several because of anime/manga. I will tell you there are titles I own now that I would NEVER have purchased without DLing. And of the titles I haven't bought, I wouldn't have bought those either I would have simply gone without. So speaking AS a consumer, I would say getting rid of fansubs would LOSE a company sales from me, rather than gaining any. There are titles I would buy sight-unseen (I have refused to watch any AMG tv series episodes, because I know I'll buy it regardless), but for those, fansubs haven't affected my purchases at all. Companies read comments of "anime is too expensive, just download for free" and think those are customers getting a "better deal" (financially speaking), but the fact is many are just leeches who would find some other entertainment if you removed their source rather than pony up the cash they say they don't have. That isn't to say there aren't ANY people who don't buy who would if fansubs weren't around, but the REAL question is how many of those are there vs. people who buy certain shows they become fans of? (The sub-argument is obviously the "bad review" phenomenon of titles basically bombing because they suck and people can't get "tricked" into the early sales due to fansubs (and yes, I know "tricked" is a loaded word which is why I quoted it) whereas without the fansubs, early adopters might buy the crap show if they didn't have a way to see it otherwise) |
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Nomigid
Posts: 49 |
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I have tried a lot of fan subbed anime, that I never would have bought IF it were on the local stores.
Then I put the anime on my "want list" and hope it comes out. There are so many good anime that will never get licensed, it is kind of sad. Fan subbed anime gives me a chance to see them. |
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CGord
 Posts: 163 Location: Phoenix, AZ suburbs |
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My opinion on fansubs: I believe they more accurately represent free advertising than stolen profits.
My opinion on HK bootlegs: They truly represent stolen profits. I could make these longer, but have done so previously. Short & sweet seems appropriate. 
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Porcupine
Posts: 1033 |
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This doesn't change the fact that the 'blase leechers' don't HELP the industry in any way. If they don't help in any way, they also don't deserve to watch and their kind ought to be stamped out for the greater good. Furthermore, in actuality the 'blase leechers' also hurt the anime industry indirectly, for they set a bad example for anime viewers who fall into the other categories. The presence of 'blase leechers' is unfair to others. Therefore their presence will encourage yet another group of people who would normally buy at least a little bit of anime, to transform into 'middle-ground leechers' who now only pirate. Basically, in order to preserve the global sense of selfishness, everyone will look at everyone else leeching, including the 'blase leechers', and leech more themselves, and profits are lost indirectly. I don't think your argument really changes anything. Zalis, on the other hand I do find your argument to be VERY valid. Indeed, DVD-ripping, pirating, and free distribution can occur with the domestic product once it is released as well. This should definitely be considered a 3-way competition of evils then, between HK DVDs vs fansubs vs domestic DVD-pirating, I agree I have left one major group out of my initial post. So, to update my views, I think all 3 of these should be stamped out. Although as before I still blame no one for pirating everything they watch since they can do it, and I blame no one for being selfish. The responsibility to protect the anime industry can only fall on the law and the law's capability to enforce itself. I agree that in some sense, fansubs are the lesser of all these evils, followed by domestic DVD-ripping, with HK DVDs being the worst. Nevertheless they are all evil AND technically illegal. Furthermore, there is the problem that fansubs and DVD-rips are the hardest for the law to enforce, while preventing HK DVDs could be the easiest. Domestic businesses must sell HK DVDs, and these can be targeted, whereas torrents through the internet are kind of uncontrollable. So actually I think fansubs and domestic DVD-rips are far more damaging to the industry than HK DVDs. I think that people who say "go after the HK DVDs before you come after the fansubbers" are in some sense the most dangerous to the anime industry. Also, keep in mind that one still has to pay a little bit for HK DVDs, whereas downloaded anime is totally free. Then comes the question of whether or not fansubbers can excuse their actions by pointing the finger at the domestic DVD-rippers, as you suggest. To some extent I agree with you on this, and to some extent I disagree. Regardless, the point is semi-moot unless the law can actually enforce its ability to stop both, and this doesn't seem possible given the current state of the world. So both fansubbing and DVD-ripping continues to go on, and in my opinion, at a rampant enough level to significantly hurt the anime industry in this current day in age (in past times, I agree that fansubbing was overall positive, as there were less 'leechers', and the positive advertisement that fansubbing brought was more important back then). So I remain concerned. As the Internet expands, it is possible that leeching will become more and more prevalent. As download speeds increase, torrent users increase in number, and as more people gain fast Internet access, the percentage of leechers will continue to grow. If this percentage gets too large, I think everyone ought to agree that the anime industry will collapse. |
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DKong
 Posts: 152 |
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First and foremost....lemme say this much: The anime industry is flourishing. I am PRETTY sure that it just keeps growing each year. Each company is it's own story, but I'm talking the anime DVD industry in general.
I really doubt the industry will ever be in jeopardy. To be short and sweet about what I think... fansubs: help the industry. bootlegs: neutral Elaborations.... Fansubs: To some people, this is the only way to get anime (whether that's because of financial reasons or lack of TV channels and junk like that), so those people DEFINITELY don't hurt the industry, because they wouldn't be buying the DVDs in the first place. If anything, they might start setting funds aside to possibly buy DVDs. Then to others, they serve as previews and cheaper ways of getting anime (you 'll probably never have enough money to buy every anime dvd out there). Thus, this way, people are probably MORE likely to buy DVDs than they wouldn't just going off of what looks good and what people say is good. And lastly, some anime never makes it to America, so fansubs are the only way to see it. For the blase leecher argument... They don't hurt or help. Down the line, they might end up buying DVDs someday. Take out fansubs and they'll likely only watch anime on TV or just never again (thus NEVER buying DVDs). It's unfair to say that they shouldn't even be allowed to watch anime if they can't afford DVDs. That's just being flat out elitist. Stamping out fansubs would hurt the industry. Without fansubs, I wouldn't be half the fan I am today. I buy DVDs, I watch shows the computer...etc. I've also gotten my friends into anime via fansubs. Bootlegs: 9 of 10 times are only sold to people who don't know that they're boots. Not many people willingly buy them (out of all my friends and about 3-4 forums, I've only encountered one person who willingly buys them), so it doesn't really hurt sales all that much. |
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Porcupine
Posts: 1033 |
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> First and foremost....lemme say this much: The anime industry is flourishing. I am PRETTY sure that it just keeps growing each year.
I totally agree. I never said otherwise. However, I think if anime fansubs and DVD-rips and HK DVDs were all stamped out, then the anime industry would flourish even more. And while I agree the anime industry is growing today, it is possible that if piracy (this includes fansubs) is not controlled better, in the future the anime industry could potentially shrink. > fansubs: help the industry. I disagree, in this day and age they are now an overall hindrance rather than a help. While I still agree they have some good qualities, they are still piracy and therefore have bad qualities as well. Right now the bad has crossed the point where it outweighs the good. That is just my personal opinion, though. No official numerical studies on piracy and profits have been done. > And lastly, some anime never makes it to America, so fansubs are the only way to see it. Yup, as I said in the topic thread post, I totally support fansubs in the case where the anime never made it to America. The only thing I said though is that fansubbers should wait 4 years after an anime releases in Japan, before fansubbing the material. That's how you be sure it is really not coming. Fansubbing something the instant it is released in Japan, even though you know it will be domestically released within a year, is not excusable in my eyes. That's true piracy. |
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DKong
Posts: 152 |
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Well, to be fair, a ton of sites remove their subs once the shows get licensed. Obviously not every site does that, so some are more readily available, but it's usually a LOT harder to find fansubs for licensed shows than unlicensed.
As for the part about the industry- I just felt like saying that because I've had similar arguments like this with people who think that the industry is close to going bankrupt. |
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Porcupine
Posts: 1033 |
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Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that because we were never in disagreement on that issue, and your statements only gave me the chance to clarify my own view as well.
About the fansub removals, what you said is true but as long as the fansubs were once distributed, the piracy becomes possible. If it were TOTALLY impossible to find licensed fansubs online, then I would be in total agreement with you, though. LOT harder is not enough to excuse their actions (even though it's not their fault). Also, technically-speaking, fansubbing even unlicensed anime is illegal, I believe. |
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DKong
Posts: 152 |
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Were you being sarcastic on the first part of your post?
As for the second part...[Unnamed torrent site] explains it basically that it's illegal, but 99.9% unenforced...and 99% of the Japanese companies don't care their stuff gets fansubbed in America, cause it's like free advertising for them. |
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DragonsRevenge
 Posts: 1150 |
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People make similar arguements with fansubbing unlicensed shows as they do with downloading roms. Roms you can d/l as long as you have the game already. Unlicnesed shows should be pulled once they become licensed. There is a very big anime d/l database that does just that. In fact, all the major fansubbers will quit once the series has been licnesed. That doesnt make it any less easier to find though. But does that make it right? There's no doubt that pulling newly licensed shows from the database probably makes them think they're justified. In fact you can think of it several ways. The downloader will either be like "Crap, it was licensed. Now I wont be able to download it." And just sit there and pout. Or they will go off and desperately look for a group that is still subbing it, and get his fix. Or they will be overjoyed with the news, and buy the series, and encourage all his buddies on the forums to do the same. It's that way that I feel fansubs are good for the community. I recall in an earlier rant of yours you said that "Most 'pirates' never buy the series they're downloading" or something like that. If I liked the series enough, and if it comes out in the US (if it isnt already). most of the time, I will buy it. I dont always want to be confined to the computer, and I'm interested in the extras, and I want to be able to share the series with a friend, in hopes that they'll buy the series and share with their friends and so on. |
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Ohoni
Posts: 3421 |
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See, I thik that's the major point of conflict on this issue. You see a group that isn't hurting anyone and feel the urge to "stamp them out", whereas I see a group that isn't hurting anyone and don't feel any motivation to hurt them either. So where does this urge come from? Why do you feel the need to hurt others?
That's a completely false premise. The responsibility to protect anything cannot come from the law, because the repsonsibility for the law is in the hands of the people. Any law that is created without the public's consent is either marginally adheared to (speed limits, certain drug laws, etc.), or is considered draconian by the public at large. The law should only be used to enforce rules that the majority of people feel are a good idea. When laws do the opposite, attempting to enforce the opinions of a minority onto the majority, then they typically fail . To create any REAL solution, effort needs to be made to change the public's opinion. If the anime industry wants people to avoid bootlegs and fansubs then the solution is NOt to try to crush bootleggers or fansubber, or to crush the people that deal with them, that will just never happen. The only REAL solution is to release a competative (not BETTER, just competative) product, to give consumers a REAL choice between the two, rather than "have it your way" or "have it our way, and be legal".
Or completely collapse. You have equal evidence either way.
As has been the prediction for the past decade or so. Got any predictions on The Rapture too? |
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