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Characters you think are overrated?


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Akane the Catgirl



Joined: 09 Oct 2013
Posts: 1091
Location: LA, Baby!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:11 am Reply with quote
Aylinn wrote:
Akane the Catgirl You take it way too personally. I have nothing against people with autism.


Alright-y then. My problem was mostly with the wording. The implications in there really rubbed me the wrong way. Sorry if I got too angry. I've already faced plenty of crap before. Razz

As for Madoka Magica, your statements about if from both the "what makes a good character" thread and here aren't so much criticisms as they are just plain disagreeing with them. Personally, I only think it's justified when the show is trying to tell one thing and accidentally showing the opposite. (i.e. everything in Twilight) With Madoka? That was all intentional. These girls aren't supposed to be logical. They (and to a lesser extent, we) assume that all of the events taking place are supposed to be something out of, say, Sailor Moon or Pretty Cure. Kyubey says that Witches are born from the despair of mankind? Okey-dokey! Kyubey wouldn't lie because that wouldn't happen in a normal magical girl show!

...Right?

So when the dark stuff does happen, it's more of a gut punch because we're supposed to assume this anime is a by-the-books magical girl anime. They find out the horrible truth as we do, because, just like us, they have no clue that this is basically Faust with magical girls. As soon as we hear that *chomp* at the end of Episode Three, the masks are forcibly ripped off from ours and Madoka's faces. This isn't a game. People make mistakes. Anyone can die. Not everyone can get that happily ever after. Most importantly, anybody who deludes themselves into thinking they know what they really want often meet a bad end.

And I think that's what a lot of the examples on this thread are like. A lot of the complaints seem less like actual criticisms and more like personal disagreements with what the characters are doing regardless of what the writing quality is. My complaints with Yuno Gasai, I believe, were more with how the writers chose to present her in the context of the narrative, rather than what she actually did. That's just me, though. Anyone else?
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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:20 am Reply with quote
Akane the Catgirl wrote:
EDIT: Though I haven't seen [/b]Kimi ni Todoke[b], something about the commentary of the character rubbed me the wrong way. He seems to imply that autism=stupid. Now, I have a little secret I want to confess. I was diagnosed on the spectrum when I was about three. I'm a little slow, but I manage to do well in school. Most of the problems I have are with socializing with others and with certain behavior patterns. I don't have many friends, and tend to get frustrated when things get too stressful for me.

Sounds a little similar to me, I was diagnosed with Asperser's syndrome, I tend to have problems with socialising and getting stressed/anxious, should have seen me this week with assignments. And it can feel personal or offensive when people try to describe someone's negative traits as being autistic.

I actually do tend to enjoy characters who can show autistic like traits while others may not, granted I do find Sawako taking so long a little frustrating. But anime tends to be much better than other mediums where I feel like they are making fun of a character's traits (Bones and Big Bang Theory)
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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
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Location: Brisbane, Australia
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:44 am Reply with quote
I suppose I should think of a character I think is overrated?

Maybe Rin Matsuoka from Free!, the guy is a selfish jerk who takes his frustration out on other people, and still ends up loved and getting lime light. Maybe he is just loved for like being the top or something, but I couldn't stand him.

And probably Erecpyle Dukakis from Ixion Saga DT, I did not really get his character, jokes were stale and I felt the biggest thing going for him was his voice actor. Even his supposed warrior honour felt hollow. Probably would extend to his team if I knew they had anything beyond being his lackeys.
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Aylinn



Joined: 18 Nov 2006
Posts: 1684
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:59 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
And I think that's what a lot of the examples on this thread are like. A lot of the complaints seem less like actual criticisms and more like personal disagreements with what the characters are doing regardless of what the writing quality is.

I understand what the writers were trying to achieve. My problem is they were not doing a good drama. Undoubtedly, the authors intended to make me care for Madoka and Homura's plight, but they didn't do a good job to achieve it.

The idea to make Madoka become a magical girl later is a good one, but with that kind of personality she had she ended up less interesting and it was easy for other characters to steal the show. It would be very different if she had also different personality, for example if she were more like Hajime from Gatchaman Crowds, it would make up for the lack of power and not make her take a back seat.

As for Homura, for around 8 episodes she is reduced to the role of a mysterious girl who knows something, but is not telling. Her unwillingness to tell anything to Madoka turns out reasonable, but once again, it doesn't make her interesting.

It doesn't strike me as a quality writing for drama.
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Akane the Catgirl



Joined: 09 Oct 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:44 pm Reply with quote
Aylinn wrote:
Quote:
And I think that's what a lot of the examples on this thread are like. A lot of the complaints seem less like actual criticisms and more like personal disagreements with what the characters are doing regardless of what the writing quality is.

I understand what the writers were trying to achieve. My problem is they were not doing a good drama. Undoubtedly, the authors intended to make me care for Madoka and Homura's plight, but they didn't do a good job to achieve it.

The idea to make Madoka become a magical girl later is a good one, but with that kind of personality she had she ended up less interesting and it was easy for other characters to steal the show. It would be very different if she had also different personality, for example if she were more like Hajime from Gatchaman Crowds, it would make up for the lack of power and not make her take a back seat.

As for Homura, for around 8 episodes she is reduced to the role of a mysterious girl who knows something, but is not telling. Her unwillingness to tell anything to Madoka turns out reasonable, but once again, it doesn't make her interesting.

It doesn't strike me as a quality writing for drama.



My interpretation of the text was more along the lines of the story being about a lot of things. At some times, it's Madoka's coming of age story. At other's, it's Homura's tragic Faustian rebellion story. For four episodes, it's Sayaka's fallen hero story. The focus in Madoka, I think, is more on the world of magical girls and them going through awful stuff and giving in to their inner demons than on just our title character. She's more of the supporting protagonist, the Gretchen to Homura's Faust, so to say.


If you look at smaller details, you'll find very interesting details about the characters. Madoka makes mistakes. She goes to her parents for help when things get bad. She's nice, but has her limits. And unlike the useless lump of coal from Future Diary, she'll actually does something to try and make the lives of her friends better. And I know what you're about to say. Madoka's conflict isn't about trying to solve the mystery. It's the fact that her friends are either dying or making really bad decisions that will lead to pain and she wants to help but Homura won't let her. I'm surprised she managed to stay sane throughout the story given that she...

spoiler[A) Witnessed the death of her mentor which she indirectly caused because the power of friendship didn't work normally.

B) Watched her best friend get beaten to near death by another magical girl.

C) Unknowingly threw said best friend of the bridge in an attempt to stop a fight since soul gems wouldn't exist in a normal magical girl show.]


And I do sort of get your complaints about Madoka being overshadowed by the other three. If you're the type who likes supporting characters over main characters, that's understandable. I'm that type. Still, I don't think there's a single character in the main cast who I hated. All of them have interesting conflict, have well-developed personalities and have sympathetic motivations (yes, even Kyubey), and all were fun to watch.

But that just may be me talking. It all depends of paying attention to the smaller details and really knowing what the story is about. It was never really about Madoka. At the same time, it's not truly about Homura. It's a tragedy about flawed people on self-destructive paths that end in utter disaster.
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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:49 pm Reply with quote
Aylinn wrote:
As for Homura, for around 8 episodes she is reduced to the role of a mysterious girl who knows something, but is not telling. Her unwillingness to tell anything to Madoka turns out reasonable, but once again, it doesn't make her interesting.

It doesn't strike me as a quality writing for drama.

I honestly think that was the point for all those episodes, and then it is episode 10's responsibility to reverse everything you thought and reveal all of the subtle parts about her. Like every move shespoiler[ made on the first day, the pained looks she had, why she was hunting Kyubey there, why she was so focused on Madoka]. Why she did not seem to spoiler[trust Mami, why she would beg Mami to listen to when we thought her interactions up till then were aggressive]. Why she had spoiler[mostly gave up Sayaka as soon as she made a contract, but still desperate to get it back when thrown]. And why she was so ready to spoiler[make a deal with Kyouko despite supposedly meeting for the first time, almost like she trusted her despite how selfish she had been shown].

her interactions might have simply look like for the plot, in fact I did not find her that interesting at first, but as I said it was revealed that all her actions had reasons and thus is actually we written.
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Aylinn



Joined: 18 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 3:47 am Reply with quote
DuskyPredator wrote:

I honestly think that was the point for all those episodes, and then it is episode 10's responsibility to reverse everything you thought and reveal all of the subtle parts about her.

Well, if the anime creators planned to reverse my thinking about her in episode 10, it failed. I guessed that she was the good one and tried to protect Madoka. She tried so much to stop her from becoming a magical girl and at the same time so much crap was happening to other magical girls that it was obvious by the time her sad back-story gets revealed.

Going back to Sawako from Kimi ni Todoke in order not to turn this discussion about Madoka. The popularity of Sawako baffles me, because she was generic. I wonder why she is so popular, especially since there is a plethora of bland shoujo heroines like her who have unreasonable problems to comprehend that someone may like them.

As for Chi from Chobits, yes, she develops somehow, but still she is at best cute in that way small children can be cute. And even small children have more personality than her. My almost two years old niece definitely shows more of it than Chi.
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DuskyPredator



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:19 am Reply with quote
Aylinn wrote:
DuskyPredator wrote:

I honestly think that was the point for all those episodes, and then it is episode 10's responsibility to reverse everything you thought and reveal all of the subtle parts about her.

Well, if the anime creators planned to reverse my thinking about her in episode 10, it failed. I guessed that she was the good one and tried to protect Madoka. She tried so much to stop her from becoming a magical girl and at the same time so much crap was happening to other magical girls that it was obvious by the time her sad back-story gets revealed.

So you knew she did not spoiler[trust Mami because she had seen her once lose it, kill Sayaka and then turn attention to her]? Or that she kind of wanted Madoka to spoiler[avoid Sayaka because she knew that Sayaka once making the wish would eventually be pushed into despair]?

Most people knew she was not actually bad, but it was not till later that we knew why she did not trust or in some areas appeared anti friendship. They looked like standard acting like an anti-hero, but there was meaning to it.
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Aylinn



Joined: 18 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:49 am Reply with quote
DuskyPredator wrote:
Aylinn wrote:
DuskyPredator wrote:

I honestly think that was the point for all those episodes, and then it is episode 10's responsibility to reverse everything you thought and reveal all of the subtle parts about her.

Well, if the anime creators planned to reverse my thinking about her in episode 10, it failed. I guessed that she was the good one and tried to protect Madoka. She tried so much to stop her from becoming a magical girl and at the same time so much crap was happening to other magical girls that it was obvious by the time her sad back-story gets revealed.

So you knew she did not spoiler[trust Mami because she had seen her once lose it, kill Sayaka and then turn attention to her]? Or that she kind of wanted Madoka to spoiler[avoid Sayaka because she knew that Sayaka once making the wish would eventually be pushed into despair]?

Of course not. I couldn't know the details, but that doesn't change there was no reverse in my thinking.
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Akane the Catgirl



Joined: 09 Oct 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:43 am Reply with quote
Aylinn wrote:
DuskyPredator wrote:
Aylinn wrote:
DuskyPredator wrote:

I honestly think that was the point for all those episodes, and then it is episode 10's responsibility to reverse everything you thought and reveal all of the subtle parts about her.

Well, if the anime creators planned to reverse my thinking about her in episode 10, it failed. I guessed that she was the good one and tried to protect Madoka. She tried so much to stop her from becoming a magical girl and at the same time so much crap was happening to other magical girls that it was obvious by the time her sad back-story gets revealed.

So you knew she did not spoiler[trust Mami because she had seen her once lose it, kill Sayaka and then turn attention to her]? Or that she kind of wanted Madoka to spoiler[avoid Sayaka because she knew that Sayaka once making the wish would eventually be pushed into despair]?

Of course not. I couldn't know the details, but that doesn't change there was no reverse in my thinking.



Oh, forget it. If you don't like something, that's okay. But at the very least, try to understand why people like that something. For example, I did not like Disney's Snow White. I never really did. But I do understand why people like it, and I know it's very important in the history of animation. Personal preferences are personal preferences, are they not?

(And about Homura, I repeat, you're not supposed to see her as sympathetic. I do not know why you're getting the idea that Homura was meant to be a cool and admirable anti-heroine, like a lot of the less intelligent otaku out there say. She's a tragic heroine whose flaws are what lead her to her fate. The only ones who see her as a moe moe victim as you imply are the aforementioned otaku/yuri fans. End of story.)
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Aylinn



Joined: 18 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:04 am Reply with quote
Akane the Catgirl wrote:
(And about Homura, I repeat, you're not supposed to see her as sympathetic. I do not know why you're getting the idea that Homura was meant to be a cool and admirable anti-heroine,

But I never said I want Homura to be a cool and admirable anti-heroine. I want good characterization that would make her interesting.
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Akane the Catgirl



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:11 am Reply with quote
Aylinn wrote:
Akane the Catgirl wrote:
(And about Homura, I repeat, you're not supposed to see her as sympathetic. I do not know why you're getting the idea that Homura was meant to be a cool and admirable anti-heroine,

But I never said I want Homura to be a cool and admirable anti-heroine. I want good characterization that would make her interesting.


Well, interesting is a subjective thing. Much like how a computer scientist would find a new programming intriguing, your average bystander would look at the same program and move on with their lives. I found Homura interesting, but if you don't, that's okay. It just boils down to alternate character interpretations. This whole page just basically boils down to interpretation, some good, some not.

I actually have another character I didn't like that much; Shiro from Deadman Wonderland. I heard she's much better written in the original manga, but considering the anime got cut in half because of poor ratings, we didn't get to see it. Not even Monica Rial's fantastic performance could get me to like Shiro. Personally, I just felt that I didn't get enough time to really know her well. Also, I didn't really like Deadman Wonderland in general, since it promised to go somewhere, but didn't because of Sudden Cancellation Syndrome.
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Animeking1108



Joined: 26 Apr 2011
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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 11:53 am Reply with quote
Akane the Catgirl wrote:
Aylinn wrote:
Akane the Catgirl wrote:
(And about Homura, I repeat, you're not supposed to see her as sympathetic. I do not know why you're getting the idea that Homura was meant to be a cool and admirable anti-heroine,

But I never said I want Homura to be a cool and admirable anti-heroine. I want good characterization that would make her interesting.


Well, interesting is a subjective thing. Much like how a computer scientist would find a new programming intriguing, your average bystander would look at the same program and move on with their lives. I found Homura interesting, but if you don't, that's okay. It just boils down to alternate character interpretations. This whole page just basically boils down to interpretation, some good, some not.

I actually have another character I didn't like that much; Shiro from Deadman Wonderland. I heard she's much better written in the original manga, but considering the anime got cut in half because of poor ratings, we didn't get to see it. Not even Monica Rial's fantastic performance could get me to like Shiro. Personally, I just felt that I didn't get enough time to really know her well. Also, I didn't really like Deadman Wonderland in general, since it promised to go somewhere, but didn't because of Sudden Cancellation Syndrome.


That's how I felt about Kyo Sohma from Fruits Basket. Since the anime ended where it did, he never got to develop past his hate-boner for Yuki.
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Morisummer500



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 5:41 pm Reply with quote
Naruto, of course, and Akane Tendo from Ramna 1/2- I always liked Shampoo much better, I think Ramna should dump her for Shampoo and let Ryogi have Akane, they seem a better match anyway, if Ramna doesn't want to fight Mousse for Shampoo, then Ukyo is pretty hot too!
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Mai Yukino



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:34 am Reply with quote
Shampoo of Ranma 1/2-Sure she may be cute and attractive, but I never really cared much for her because of using Ranma's cat phobia to her advantage by pressuring him to date her and such or other such dirty and cheap tricks, and how badly she treats poor Mousse. On a positive note though, at least Shampoo is not as bad as Kodachi...Kodachi is just the worst, especially when she uses Ranma like a toy to her whims.
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