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leatherhead333 wrote:

I think the fact i made a remark to "hippies" should have gave away i was being sarcastic Razz

Apologies sarcasm is hard to gage in text Embarassed

leatherhead333 wrote:

I apologize for making a broad statement without thinking but i don't think censorship/skinship sensitivity is anywhere near the level we'd like it to be in America. Japan has always been more open about the subject given their culture but I can't imagine the U.S ever quite being on the same level.

I don't watch J-Dramas but the films I have seen have been less sexualised than US/UK films/shows - to me it would seem anime is the main outset for this. I could be (very) wrong about this and I'll stop digressing now.

Key wrote:

You do realize that we're trending in the opposite direction from that, and have been for the last 40-50 years, right?

Not across the board though. When it comes to underage nudity, or kids being exposed to nudity, the screws have tightened. Coppertone had to change their logo after 50 some years of showing a topless little girl being pantsed by a dog (including commercials with actual little girls), and for awhile even Starbucks removed the nipples and tails of their mermaid to please the prudes. Remember the furor over Janet Jackson's "wardrobe malfunction"? The government spent 8 grand to shield us from the sight of the Spirit of Justice's breasts during Ashcroft's tenure. America is positively insane when it comes to nudity.

Still better than back in the '50s when a married couple couldn't be shown sleeping in the same bed or the word "pregnant" couldn't be said in a TV sitcom. (These are well-documented facts and not exaggerations, BTW.)

That's a little different from what I'm talking about though. Pregnancy and couples in bed cannot be said to be sexually innocent. However, I went beyond my own argument first by bringing in the Superbowl, so just ignore that example. Wink

That wasn't non-sexual even before the slip.

Just getting back after the weirdness with the ANN site.

Gina Szanboti wrote:

One-Eye wrote:

Gina Szanboti wrote:

The creators probably also said, "If it makes the shota-fans happy, that's fine too." Wink

Exactly. They are quite aware at what they are teasing at and it is purposeful.

Well...no, not exactly. What I meant was that a rebirth metaphor was their purpose and they were ok with people only seeing/also seeing shota fan-service in it. What you've posited is that their purpose was shota fan-service (and I guess, if it occurred to them at all, that they were ok if people like me only see/also see a rebirth metaphor). I think you're more cynical about this than I am. Maybe I'm not cynical enough. Smile

Sorry, I clipped your quote in order to make it shorter and you are probably misunderstanding what I’m saying because of it. My point here is that its not an either/or situation. Art or the scene we are talking about can be the metaphor you are referring to and still contain an erotic element. It doesn’t have to be one or the other it can be both. Furthermore, the creators know this. Sure there are times when things get interpreted in a way that was not intended, but there are also times when things are done intentionally. As you implied: "If it makes the shota-fans happy, that's fine too."

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I don't know how else they could have done such a metaphor there, except to have him popping out of an egg or something equally idiotic. As it is, in two wordless seconds they get across the point of him awakening to face the world, naked as the day he was born. It couldn't be more straightforward or less sexual (if they'd kept the shot discreetly above his waist we wouldn't know he was naked, which would cripple the metaphor).

I disagree I don't think the idea of "rebirth" has to be visually limited to him directly. They could have used any number of natural objects to represent birth or growth. His awakening to a new day or new experiences or basically maturing in outlook, which is what Nike is implying at the end when speaking about experiences, is not quite the same as a spiritual or physical rebirth. I also disagree that they couldn't have shot the scene from the waist up. Things can be implied, one doesn't have to hit people over the head with stuff. Plus we already saw him in bed half naked. Its implied that he's naked when the sheet only comes up to his waist. So, no it wasn't necessary to use a scene with him naked, nor was it necessary to have him even in it to suggest some kind of growth. When there are other options it makes me doubt it was done strictly for metaphor.

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How young would he need to be before this kind of simple nudity wouldn't register to you as sexual? How old would he need to be before it wouldn't matter? Is there some in-between age where people are never allowed to be shown naked without it being seen as intentional fan service?

Hmm...I think you bring up a good question, but I don't think its limited to age. I mean first of course its dependent on a viewer's culture and morality. There's that part, but let's not forget context and intention. Is all nudity erotic? I would say no of course not. If you look at some of Lucian Freud's paintings of nudes they sometimes look like slabs of flesh. It would be difficult to find some of those as erotic even though they are nude. There are some artists that purposefully subvert the nude human form and that's their intent. So what's the context of this story? Aside from the main character having issues and needing to grow in experiences, the show in part teases at Romance. This itself can affect our perceptions of the scene in question. You throw in a shota, an implied romance with an older girl, plus the whole "If it makes the shota-fans happy, that's fine too," and its not too difficult to think that the intent of the scene is more than just metaphor. Personally, I saw the scene unnecessary as it was presented, which makes me question the intent.

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I remember how freaked out American audiences got over the father bathing with his daughters in Totoro, so I'm not sure where the line is, let alone how they're supposed to tread it.

I think this specific example goes back to what I mentioned about a viewer's culture and morality. I also suspect it may have to do with what people may have been expecting, based on their values, a children's film to be like. I recall people got freaked out (I think it was these forums) because in Beelzebub you had a baby running around naked letting it all hang out. I thought it was just natural and funny. If you've ever had to deal with little tykes and change diapers you know that its quite common for them to strip down out of their diapers and run around butt naked. This wasn't a show about a romance between a naked baby and his delinquent high school aged father figure. There was no eroticism between the two and so I thought some of the reactions where strange.

Gina Szanboti wrote:

Key wrote:

You do realize that we're trending in the opposite direction from that, and have been for the last 40-50 years, right?

Not across the board though. When it comes to underage nudity, or kids being exposed to nudity, the screws have tightened.

Based on my experiences, I'd agree with this. I remember back in the early 90s when they made a big deal of showing someone's butt in a shower scene on NYPD Blue and how "risque" that was for regular tv. I'm not a prude, but some stuff that I've seen on cable lately has made me do a double-take and go whoa! However, in some locations and other mediums it might be a different story. I just recently moved away from a town that was rural and fairly conservative. I can tell you that a year probably didn't go by where there weren't attempts to ban books in our local library. I believe some were classics, some were more contemporary (I think 50 shades might have been one), and some were sex education books aimed at early teens. If I recall correctly, for the sex ed books a group tried to get the head librarian fired. So, its definitely not something across the board.

Episode 3:

Another beautiful episode and I mean it literally with Nike and the King's relationship. I find their interactions to very humorous and they actually do seem to care about each other based on their actions and words throughout the episode.

The spoiler[song] itself was also pretty and is worth listening to it on headphones. I wonder if she'll be singing a different one in the future though. Also, since this does have romance themes in it, I wonder if they will introduce some rivals soon. But at any rate, I'm still enjoying the hell out of this show. Oh and Nike's spoiler[dress] was pretty :>

@One-Eye: Thanks for the thoughtful response. I still stand by my take on the ED, but the content of the episodes themselves is definitely not being very coy about the shota-con now. Smile

I think the only thing that might change my view is if at some point the very same scene is shown but the camera pulls back to reveal Nike on the other side of the bed. As you say, context matters, and right now, the fact that he's alone in the room makes all the difference to me.

But I disagree that we would know a person getting out of bed is nude without showing that (at least prior to this episode), since I've seen enough movies, tv and anime where guys seem to be naked in bed, only to throw back the covers and be shown wearing boxers or some other sleepwear. Talk about a tease... Wink

Stark700 wrote:

Also, since this does have romance themes in it, I wonder if they will introduce some rivals soon.

If they had a mind to do that we would have been introduced to the string of concubines, servant girls, and court social climbers already. Shoot if I were the 15-year-old king I would have had a whole wing of the castle devoted to the harem.

But Livius' libido (say that ten times fast) seems to be not the issue with him. TWISB really seems to be taking a path much less traveled in anime romance. They have demonstrated they can do humor without a love triangle or harem as well as many other anime devices so let's all hope they keep it up.

Gina wrote:

I think the only thing that might change my view is if at some point the very same scene is shown but the camera pulls back to reveal Nike on the other side of the bed

I predicted that -- and it happened much sooner than I had thought. It was always inevitable that they would see each other naked and I guess Nike got the first look. You go, girl. And they did her level of reacting to it just about right -- not too much but not too insouciant either. After all -- she came here to be this guy's paid-for mate so what expectation would you expect her to have?

If we had a "best anime couple" contest I think Nike+Livius could actually win with just 3 episodes.

I can't say I didn't expect this kind of reaction from the pedo-paranoid Western audiences.

While I can't deny that that was shota fanservice done on purpose(and personally, they could've done it without having him naked all the time in bed), I can also see this as his way of torturing her.

Clearly, Livius is one disturbed kid. But at the same time, although it may be intended to make him look creepy, the show made the reasoning behind his behavior clear, and he came across to me as more empathetic than creepy. This is even more evident in the part where he "refused to get out of bed until she kisses him". While that was meant to be a funny scene meant to troll Nike with, it also shows why this relationship works better with the guy as a kid: if he's older, he'll be just a stereotypical alpha shojo love interest, and he won't be needing a stronger older partner to "help" him. But since he's a kid, his behavior becomes a device to show us that he has a LOT of issues that was the natural consequence of him being pushed in such an ominous position at a young age, and this is where Nike figures.

trescaballeros wrote:

Clearly, Livius is one disturbed kid. But at the same time, although it may be intended to make him look creepy, the show made the reasoning behind his behavior clear, and he came across to me as more empathetic than creepy. This is even more evident in the part where he "refused to get out of bed until she kisses him". While that was meant to be a funny scene meant to troll Nike with, it also shows why this relationship works better with the guy as a kid: if he's older, he'll be just a stereotypical alpha shojo love interest, and he won't be needing a stronger older partner to "help" him. But since he's a kid, his behavior becomes a device to show us that he has a LOT of issues that was the natural consequence of him being pushed in such an ominous position at a young age, and this is where Nike figures.

I think Livius has made it pretty clear from the start that he expects Nike to entertain him and relieve him from boredom. Nike also has been pretty clear that she will not be just a plaything. It has already been made clear to everyone including themselves that they are destined to fall for each other.

How many times have you seen a situation like that in anime?

The fun, of course, is to see what Livius can invent to simultaneously tease and endear himself to Kite. For her part she isn't so much into teasing but she will get impertinent with him -- even physically. She wants to teach him his limits (don't women always) but she has also discovered that she wants to connect with him and has no more idea than he does.

Fortunately, neither of them are shy. Both of them are working on it. And it isn't taking about 80 years of one or the other mooning around constantly. How many times have you see that in anime?

So: not "disturbed" and not "creepy." 15 years old is not "too young" for her. Just too lively and precocious kids who hadn't realized how lonely they are until now yet still somehow retain a sense of fun. You should be so lucky.

Gina Szanboti wrote:

@One-Eye: Thanks for the thoughtful response. I still stand by my take on the ED, but the content of the episodes themselves is definitely not being very coy about the shota-con now. Smile

I think the only thing that might change my view is if at some point the very same scene is shown but the camera pulls back to reveal Nike on the other side of the bed. As you say, context matters, and right now, the fact that he's alone in the room makes all the difference to me.

No problem, stuff is open to interpretation. Thanks for the lively discussion. I guess I'll have to hurry and see the latest episode now.

I would mostly agree with what trescaballeros said about Mr. young king's youth making him sympathetic if he was actually used as a true shota, but for the reasons I already discussed I don't think he is. I still doubt I will ever fully get used to his voice (I am wondering if they do an English dub, if they will switch his voice job to a girl which is what really should have been done. He seriously sounds just like some average 22 year old NEET guy, which is quite jarring each time he first starts speaking in an episode.) Also, on this note, I was a little surprised by how aggressive the show was with his nakedness in this episode. It didn't offend me or anything. I probably would have been offended if they had Nike "walk in on him accidentally in the bathroom" or something stupid like that. This was just more of a surprise for me with how they did it, but I can't really say if it was good or not. It may have been a gimmick to appeal to some of the (I assume mostly female?) target audience, but it wasn't contradictory to the theme that the show has been on so far so.... I'll think about it some more.

Episode 3 continued with the theme I outlined earlier, once again making me feel like this show is a "beautiful mess." The aesthetics were just as lovely here as they were in episode 2, very pretty music, bright and colorful visuals, and themes of flowers, light, and lovey dovey were all about.

However, again, a decent amount of the dialogue was awkward. At one point, for example, Nike laments the fact that "the king is always coming to my rescue" or something like that, and says she needs to protect him sometimes too. However, spoiler[she already saved his life in dramatic fashion just in the previous episode! (potentially twice if you count stopping the fire)] I think that dialog was put in there for dramatic effect but it made it seem like the writers had totally ignored what happened in the prior episode, or didn't care.

I also noticed more than before that there is a whole lot of exposition going on and relatively little exploration by the characters. Handsome butler guy did some more explainin, as did the maids, all explaining about how much our Mr. young king has a heart of gold underneath that rough surface, if Nike can just bring it out of him!! It was a noticeable theme and, although not totally oppressive, it was a little bit more bad than good. Why can't Nike and Mr. young king go out on some kind of adventure together and learn about each other through mutual struggle? Why can't they bond in that way, rather than have it be jammed down our throats in two episodes of people around them explaining things to them? Like I said, so much of this show is beautiful, so I don't understand why this aspect of the writing isn't up to the challenge... maybe good writing is a lot harder than good visual artistry (this is a question I have asked myself before).

The last thing I noticed, was toward the end of the episode, the scene where spoiler[Nike sings] was even more visually stunning and lovely than any of the others, and I enjoyed it of course spoiler[(including the nice song)]. However, at the same time I was wondering if Nike is becoming too beloved at this stage of the show, not just by the audience but by all of the characters in the show as well. She's being built up very very high right now, and I think building up a main character this high so early could be a bit of a mistake. I suppose they could try to correct that by having her take a massive tumble back down to earth, but I think that is also more of a challenge to execute well than having a character who slowly works their way up toward greatness.

Right now I feel like I am going to keep watching this show because the good stuff is enough to keep it being enjoyable. However, there are a LOT of very noticeable flaws that cause me to believe the show will wind up being one of those mediocre shows that simply entertained me for a season rather than wowing me in any particular way.

TsunaReborn! wrote:

leatherhead333 wrote:

I think the fact i made a remark to "hippies" should have gave away i was being sarcastic Razz

Apologies sarcasm is hard to gage in text Embarassed

leatherhead333 wrote:

I apologize for making a broad statement without thinking but i don't think censorship/skinship sensitivity is anywhere near the level we'd like it to be in America. Japan has always been more open about the subject given their culture but I can't imagine the U.S ever quite being on the same level.

I don't watch J-Dramas but the films I have seen have been less sexualised than US/UK films/shows - to me it would seem anime is the main outset for this. I could be (very) wrong about this and I'll stop digressing now.

Some late night jdrama and tv commercials have nudity

ChibiKangaroo wrote:

However, at the same time I was wondering if Nike is becoming too beloved at this stage of the show, not just by the audience but by all of the characters in the show as well. She's being built up very very high right now, and I think building up a main character this high so early could be a bit of a mistake. I suppose they could try to correct that by having her take a massive tumble back down to earth, but I think that is also more of a challenge to execute well than having a character who slowly works their way up toward greatness.

Your concern is valid and we will just have to wait and see. If they follow the standard tropish anime story-lines they will almost certainly have blown it for the reason you say. On the other hand I think we have reason to believe that won't happen. The story might (should) have other things in mind other than what you are expecting.

It is totally possible, for example, that Livius and Nike do not end up as husband and wife. You could make up many good stories that end up like that both happy and sad. Or the adventure you seem to crave might obtrude and change everyone's expectations.

About that, I have another prediction: you haven't seen the last of the innkeeper and family and the thieves Kite met in the first episode. They will turn out to be essential later on.

The pacing continues to feel off. It's only three episodes in and they already feel like they are in a relationship. Whenever they show both of them together in a long shot so that you can see their relative sizes, I almost burst out laughing. He looks about 12 and she looks around 18. I just can't take them seriously as a couple. It's still a fun show, though.

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