Forum - View topicANN Book Club -- Puella Magi Madoka Magica.
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Akane the Catgirl
Posts: 1091 Location: LA, Baby! |
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And now for my own thoughts on Episode Nine!
1. The opening of this episode features the birth of Oktavia von Seckendorff, the witch form of Sayaka Miki. If you read "The Little Mermaid" you'll find: *A naive girl longing for A Man. *The girl healing said Man in some form. *The girl getting a wish granted by a mysterious entity, with a transformation revolving around a soul. *A love triangle between the girl, Man, and a rich girl. *The girl unable to express love to her Man. *The girl losing out on the love triangle. *Other women offering her a way out, which the girl rejects. *The girl dying at the end. Hmmm...sounds accurate. 2. And we find out Kyubey's motivation for doing these horrible things! Oddly enough, for someone whose species is basically a race of sociopathic Ubermensches (is that the word?), the Incubator's goals are fairly benevolent. It just involves doing some very bad things to others. Particularly, it requires them to give hope to magical girls, while crushing it completely so they can get the energy. After all, for every magical girl's wish, there is also a curse. 3. We end this episode with Kyoko killing herself alongside Sayaka's Witch. When we see her interacting with Madoka before their failed plan to bring back Sayaka commences, Kyoko seems to be a lot like how our fallen heroine used to be. Both ended up as little fish to be eaten by the big fish. In a way, I imagine Kyoko sympathized with her plight, as she used to have those same hero fantasies. Kyoko could only find salvation and atonement for her mistakes in death. (Funny enough, my English class is reading All My Sons, which ends in a similar manner.) |
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RadarJay
 Posts: 51 |
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Yeah :/ Kyube's awesome. Ya know, while we're at it, let me just say that I was legitimately impressed on just how much thought went into his character and his relationship to the girls. He could have really easily went down as one of those one silly"eeevvull" characters that take some silly infantalized form because creeepppyy. That seems to be really popular with these "dark" kind of shows.
And oh yeah, Nietzsche would have loved our little nihilistic, amoral friends. By the way, I like the general contrast in lighting/tone/everything between the scene in this episode when Kyube confronts Madoka vs. when he first comes into her room at the beginning of the series (after he first ask to contract with her, right when she wakes up.) *You're on the right track. Lemmi just add a couple things to your point. Throughout the entire show, there's this all encompassing duality between not only certain characters and what they represent (Mami/Homaura) but in despair and hope. While Kyube is able to advance the world to incredible feets from these girls wishes, he also creates powerful witches (which kinda... spoiler[destroy the universe at one point. Which he was kinda looking to preserve)]. *Both girls were simply idealistic kids who didn't like the injustice they saw all around them. They both made the mistake of expecting certain things out of humanity, and for explicitly *selfish* reasons. Both became inhumanly lonely. Both shut themselves out from humanity, just under opposite lights (Kyoko wanted to stay isolated like Sayaka, but because of her anger and disillusionment due to how her wish betrayed her instead of despairing like Sayaka). Sayaka eventually implodes from her disparity and loss in faith in pretty much... everything. She doesn't trust magical girls, humanity... anything or anyone (remind you of anyone?????). In this last episode, Kyoko finds herself before being hardened as a magical girl, and in fitting contrast, she explodes, with a return to grace non the less. |
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Akane the Catgirl
Posts: 1091 Location: LA, Baby! |
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Should we just do the questions for the final three episodes in one post? Seriously, I'm beginning to think that this whole thing was a huge mistake. (I still don't regret buying the entire series on ITunes...)
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RadarJay
Posts: 51 |
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Welp, if I didn't think that anyone else was gonna start participating, this thing would have passed on way long ago. Whatevs. Anywho, on to the last few episodes.
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ChibiKangaroo
 Posts: 2941 |
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I would probably normally participate in this, but I think I have been sort of Madoka'd out lol. I would probably be regurgitating a lot of my previous statements on the show.
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RadarJay
Posts: 51 |
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Lol fair nuff'. Guess I tried to add something interesting to the old points ^^;?
Anywho, I think I'd really have to consider these last episodes the thematic heart of the show. SO much happens and we get so much great characterization from Homaura and Madoka. *We see Homoura as a different person, no longer a magical girl but a human. What can you assess about her character at this time, and how does she compare to a “younger” Madoka? Why does she instantly stick to Madoka so well? *ALLL of the mythos is built upon and revealed during these last episodes. Think back to when Kyubey was talking about the system that his people employed and the “karmic destiny” stuff. How does this relate to some of our character’s fates… naaamleyyy Mami and Sayaka. *And there was a reason I asked ya to take notes in the beginning! Like Madoka’s mom said, her daughter is becoming totally alienated from her. Aside from the obvious, just how has Madoka changed from the blissfully unaware and worrisome little girl at the beginning of the series? What about Homaura? (oohhh boy. A lot to talk about here) *In the very last scene we see Homaura take up fighting again, this time with Madoka’s bow. Taking into consideration the last question, what do you think this means? |
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EmbraceMe
 Posts: 2013 Location: Growing old and jaded. |
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Meh, I'll bite -- it's been a while (a while being since its air date. . .) since I've watched PMMM though so I don't trust my memory of the events that occurred. I've been wanting to watch the movies but lack the time to watch them; it doesn't help that I'm stacking up episodes of ongoings now, too. In addition, I don't find my post very substantive when it comes to Madoka Magica.
I read through the Gen Urobuchi interview thread and your post reminded me of the hate that Kyubey faced from the fandom when the true nature of Grief Seeds and Magical Girl powers were revealed. Gen Urobuchi did not present him as either "evil" or "good" but the reaction from viewers fascinated me -- I had also jumped on the hate train when I realized his deceptive-like (fairer words would be information-concealing) nature. After some contemplative thoughts I came to the conclusion he acted for what's best for the universe (even if it costed lives to save it).
Can you explain to me why?  I'm a potential Philosophy major and I'm currently taking Existentialism; the topic of Nietzsche intrigues me since I'm told that many people perceive him as a nihilist when he's considered one of the fathers of existentialism. That's just what I'm told though, I've only read his work "Schopenhauer as an Educator" so far.
- I was in the midst of typing the above response when the new questions were posted; I wanted to specifically talk about Homura and now is my chance. Episode 10's reveal of Homura's character drastically changed my view about her. In her first appearances and the following episodes, her mysteriousness and violent acts (i.e. hunting down the innocent looking Kyubey) struck a nerve on me. No one knew her motives, she was the "rogue" magical girl, and I grew to not favor her. But when episode 10 aired, the audience became aware of her weaknesses, insecurities, and the tragedies she faced in each timeline. She changed from the shy, flustered, weak, sickly girl into a cold, stoic-like warrior. Her changed captivated me and drew out my sympathies for her -- the episode brought forth revelations of her motives. I enjoyed this reveal so much that she has become one of my favorite characters of all time. In addition, it relates to episode one in some ways. It'll be hard to explain without visual images but I'll try my best. Episode 1's timeline, Madoka is tasked with showing Homura around the school but Homura walks ahead of Madoka -- I saw this as Homura metaphorically paving Madoka's road. Compare this to episode 10's innocent Homura (the sickly one), Madoka is leading her around the school -- this served as literally and metaphorically guiding Homura (Madoka does act as a mentor in this particular timeline). The two characters are tied together; their fates intertwine and Homura's struggle to save Madoka only strengthens their ties. Eh. . . Not quite a substantive post. I want to say more but I feel like I really do need a rewatch before I add anymore. I'll think about some of these questions overnight or after others post their piece. |
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RadarJay
Posts: 51 |
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Uh oh
 looks like I'm a bit caught in the headlights here.
I'm noooo philosophy major, but I'll bring what I can to the table. To answer your first question, Nietzche was existentialist (and also a nihilist) in that he saw no true meaning to existence, and thought that humans forged it for themselves in their lives. He sought for all of humanity to strive to be an "ubermench" onto themselves and greatly valued personal choice, encouraging everyone to break free of the common thought of society. "God is dead" so say Nietzche. Humanity was falling into a pit of Nihilistic despair and we need an amoral being, serving only its own agent and free of human values and needs to create a new set of rules, and to impose them on us. That's the Ubermen. Remind you of anyone 
Slightly unrelated to the question, but relevant to the show non the less, he also liked dichotomy and it's effect on the human psyche (see his "Apollonian and Dionysian" idea). The entire idea of the duality between hope and disparity and the karmic play that's going on throughout the entire show could be particularly interesting to anyone wanting to take a more postmodern view on the idea, which emphasizes the contrast and balance inside this sort of "system". A sort of entropy, if you will. Anywho, hope my answers weren't TOO vague  I'd love to hear your views on it when you get the chance 
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jl07045
 Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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Read Beyond Good and Evil and Genealogy of Morals (you'll likely have to do that anyway if you're going for a major). Pop-Nietzsche is almost as prevalent as pop-Freud so you should be skeptical of any second-hand accounts of him that doesn't come with specific references to his works. For example reading Zarathustra will show that Incubators are very far from being Overmen. They don't even have an individuality. |
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Akane the Catgirl
Posts: 1091 Location: LA, Baby! |
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It's...over.
Oh my god. That was one of the best endings I have ever watched. I even cried more on my third viewing than I did the first two times. Yep, this one's a keeper. Love this. 1. In episode 10, we meet a bespectacled and moe Homura. She's shy and unconfident, and also a bit of a crybaby. When she meets Madoka, her very first friend, she clings on to her and doesn't let go. Perhaps it's because they're much alike in introversion and cheerfulness? 2. Karma's a huge b***h, ain't it? Magical girls are destined to become Witches when their wish and/or motivation behind a wish is invalidated. Mami was killed by a Witch in a moment of complete happiness, while Sayaka's wish led to nothing but self-inflicted grief that turned her into a Witch. 3. From the POV of a coming of age story, Madoka's parting with her mother is significant in many ways. Throughout the story, Madoka has been a girl. She witnesses injustice and cruelty to those who exist to oppose it. She's forced to watch a mentor, a best friend, and a veteran die horribly. Now, as she talks with her mother and makes her big decision, Madoka Kaname is no longer a little girl. She's become a woman. (and Magical Girl Jesus.) On the flipside, Homura's story is pure tragedy. Like I stated in my character outline, her fatal flaw is her love for Madoka. She didn't just want to save Madoka; she wanted Madoka herself. Thus, she goes down a path of self destruction and hatred, trying over and over again to rescue Madoka from her grisly death. In a way, fate was both defied and adhered to in that Madoka was only saved by having her existence erased as she became Magical Girl Jesus. 4. Homura never got the girl. There never was a girl to begin with. Still, she remembers Madoka and her sacrifice, and she continues to fight for her. Even to the very end, she battles Wraiths and perseveres through the worst. She has hope by her side, and as long as she remembers Madoka, she will not fall. Additional Notes Walpurgisnacht sounds like she's either laughing merrily or crying. It kind of fits the Mad Clown thing she has going for her. (Also, Sayaka's Witch sounds like she's either laughing insanely or psychotically screaming.) You know how self-blaming Madoka was in the immediate aftermath of Mami's death? Well, we find out that in one timeline, she did kill Mami out of mercy. Harsh. Witch Speculation: The Witch Gertrud from Episode 2 is Anthy from Revolutionary Girl Utena (which I've never even seen but have a good amount of knowledge of), the Witch Elly from Episode 4 is Tomoko from WataMote, the Witch Elsa Maria from Episode 7 is probably Inori from Fresh PreCure (which I also haven't seen), and Walpurgisnacht from the ending is Rei Ayanami from Evangelion. Just my speculah, though. |
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RadarJay
Posts: 51 |
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Hehe... As someone who's been through a few rodeos with RGU, the more you begin understand about it, you don't. There's ALWAYS more to the show.
On to episodes 10 and 11! *Yup. Homoura is introverted and self-loathing, in an uncomfortable place and time, invisible to everyone and everything, much like Madoka in the beginning. Madoka, although shy and passive, is a kind hearted and well-meaning girl, so naturally she reaches out to the new kid, and it works. Madoka was always sort of Homoura’s guidance in this confusing time, whether they were best friends fighting side by side or as Homoura’s purpose for rebelling against the system. But this most definitely isn’t supposed to be seen as “healthy”. As soon as Homoura makes her resolve to fight, she is blinded to everything save for Madoka, and closes her heart to the rest of humanity. You see this exemplified, rather harshly, throughout the series. At this point (episode 11), she's just as scared as in the beginning of the series (and it's only after she confides in Madoka that she shows some emotion.) And think about episode 11's title for a second... "The Only Thing I Have Left to Guide Me..." *Sayaka is a tragic hero to the letter. She exemplifies how good intentions mean nothing in the outcome of things, and dies because of her mistakes and ideals. Mami lives by the system and dies by the system. Her basic nature as a peacemaker and lay-lower is what caused her to go berserk in the flashback, and though it all, not one iota of her good nature is able to solve anything for the magical girls (hey! A connection to Sayaka’s fate), and only serves to help the incubators. And… hehe. I don’t personally think that Madoka would fall for the mercy kill crap. Especially after how she develops in the end of the show. But that's a discussion for another time and place. |
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RadarJay
Posts: 51 |
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Before I wrap this thing up, let me just say a million thanks to Akane for helping and supporting this thing pull through a perddy damn arduous process and providing some great incite throughout.
So! Let's do this thing! * Yup. Madoka has just gone though a bonified journey of growth and self actualization, and now more confident with her own values and self, she is ready to take action into her own hands. Her separation with her mother (a previous source of dependence and guiding light) only helps to illustrate this. And... yeah. Everything that you already said. *Homura takes up the bow as a representation of Madoka's guiding light and influence throughout her life. While their separation was painful, Homura still keeps Madoka and her values close at heart while continuing to fight-not for her- but for humanities sake. And I'm pretty sure Elsa Maria was an allegorical shadow of Sayaka herself. I mean, here she is, in her darkest and most conflicted time, reflecting on her intentions and their consequences (and not always liking what she sees) and facing a battle with a literal shadow in which she only comes out in more pain then ever. Sorry if this last entry was a bit skimpy in particular :p any last observations are more then welcome! |
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Akane the Catgirl
Posts: 1091 Location: LA, Baby! |
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^ And thank you too, RadarJay. Hopefully, next time we start a Book Club, we'll find more members to contribute. Maybe we'll do FLCL or Trigun next time. I've already seen the former several times, and I'm watching the latter right now for the first time. Also, I'm sorry that I won't be commenting on the Rebellion movie. Haven't seen that one.
Anyway, I also wanted to share my original character magical girls for the main Witches presented in this show. I'm kind of aware of the symbolism, so I decided to incorporate that into my fanfiction. Here's my theories so far. DONUT STEEL. spoiler[Gertrud was in an emotionally and sexually abusive relationship with her fiancee. Her wish was for a friend she could tell anything to. After being assaulted by her fiancee and then watching him get murdered by her best friend, she breaks off ties and stops functioning altogether, transforming into a witch from the mixture of trauma and distrust. Charlotte/Nagisa needed a bone marrow transplant. Her family had a genetic disorder that made it so their immune systems only worked at half the speed. Her wish was to be cured of said genetic disorder. When her mother dies from stage four cancer, she witches out in grief. Elly was a shut-in and otaku who ran an online peep show from her bedroom. Her wish was to have the courage to meet a boy she met online. When she discovers he already has a girlfriend, she goes on a rampage and turns into a witch. Elsa Maria was raised as the messiah of her father's cult. Her wish was to spread the gospel of her father's words. When her naive moralities are questioned by other magical girls, she turns after her own brethren, believing them to be sinful, even as she herself becomes a witch. Izabel had depression and was emotionally abused and objectified by her mother. Her wish was to be loved and praised by her peers at her school. After getting everything she wanted, yet still not satisfied, she takes out her anger against her mother, killing her and witching out shortly after. Walpurgisnacht was raised to become the perfect magical girl by a secret organization. Her wish was for Kyubey's powers, as he was her first and only friend. She contracted several magical girls alongside Kyubey. When she turned into a Witch, she also gained the grief of those she contracted. Thus, she became a powerful super witch.] Phew. Man, I can't believe I wrote all that. It's been in development for over a year. I can't wait to finally publish it somewhere. 
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TarsTarkas
 Posts: 5824 Location: Virginia, United States |
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Have to disagree here. This was a gradual process. No one would believe Homura until it was too late. No matter how many Kyubeys she killed, more would pop up. It is not a matter of being blinded, but simple realism. If you can't save everyone, then you try to save the one that matters to you the most. While it was ultimately impossible for Homura to prevent any interactions between Madoka and the Khubeys, Homura did give Madoka the time to see the Khubeys for who they were and what they were doing. |
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lifepawn
Posts: 2 |
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I enjoyed reading the replies in this thread. I didn't write much because I've only seen the movie versions of the show and its hard for me to comment on only a section of a movie at a time. Anyways, I hope you continue and do something for Rebellion.
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