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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 7163
Location: Another Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 1:21 am Reply with quote
whiskeyii wrote:
Is that actually ever clearly stated in the anime? I know everyone pulls from the manga, but does anyone actually say "Yeah, everyone gets this thing shoved up their butt so we can pilot the mechs"? Because it's even worse if context is never given inside of the show itself since the scene lacks an sense of it being surgical that way.


I haven't seen Cross Ange, but that description reminds me of Mr. Garrison's vehicle in the South Park episode "The Entity."
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818941





PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:39 pm Reply with quote
Meanwhile a real person got jailed for NO CRIME AT ALL animenewsnetwork.com/news/2014-10-19/u.k-man-sentenced-for-prohibited-images-of-manga-children/.80103
and I don't see any of you fearmongering, bleeding-heart hypocrites denouncing that.
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whiskeyii



Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 2242
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:13 pm Reply with quote
818941 wrote:
Meanwhile a real person got jailed for NO CRIME AT ALL animenewsnetwork.com/news/2014-10-19/u.k-man-sentenced-for-prohibited-images-of-manga-children/.80103
and I don't see any of you fearmongering, bleeding-heart hypocrites denouncing that.


I fail to see the point you're making here, and I read the post you made on that thread. Look, most of us agree that you're allowed to indulge in whatever kind of fantasies you like. Most of us also agree that those fantasies can have problematic elements to them, and it's wise to be aware of those elements even as you enjoy them. It's not telling you to stop enjoying them, just to be more conscious about the media you consume, which is very much the same message given to young girls who consume media that prominently features unattainable (as in literally Photoshopped to perfection) body images.

You and I will probably never see eye-to-eye about Cross Ange, and that's fine. Your interpretation of Cross Ange is valid, just as mine is. You see exactly what the creators are attempting to portray: a dark revenge story. I'm reading between the lines and seeing what kind of viewpoints the creators could have possibly had to create a story like this.

But I don't see what you stand to gain by resorting to name-calling. Those of us who understand rape fantasies and what they entail know that what one fantasizes about does not necessarily correlate directly to a real-life situation. But truth be told, most people won't be that understanding, if only because the chance to discuss rape fantasies in a setting that's not emotionally charged is rare. Hence why I and others have attempted to educate others on what exactly those kinds of fantasies entail, in order to curb misguided assumptions about how those fantasies translate to real life, like the judge mentioned in the article.
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Key
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003
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Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:26 pm Reply with quote
Apologies for the late reply; I simply did not have time to keep up with this thread on Sunday or earlier today.

whiskeyii wrote:
But SAO II's and Valvrave's? They seem to have very little impact on the show, and excising them altogether changes very little in the story (i.e., Sinon is still threatened and saved, and, uh, I guess there's some resolution in how the characters in Valvrave feel towards each other. Kind of. That one seems messier, like it happened towards the end and the creators went, "Well now what?" It seems like the end result was some kind of romantic resolution though. And there are half a dozen other ways to pull that off).

Oh, it had an impact on the show in the case of Valvrave. spoiler[Haruto is very clearly shown as having never forgiven himself or gotten over it, even though Saki never held it against him. It was definitely a lingering part of how, unlike the others, he was never able to fully accept or adjust to being whatever they called their vampire-like status, and that forever after made his contacts with Saki awkward.]
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whiskeyii



Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 2242
PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:27 am Reply with quote
Key wrote:
Apologies for the late reply; I simply did not have time to keep up with this thread on Sunday or earlier today.

whiskeyii wrote:
But SAO II's and Valvrave's? They seem to have very little impact on the show, and excising them altogether changes very little in the story (i.e., Sinon is still threatened and saved, and, uh, I guess there's some resolution in how the characters in Valvrave feel towards each other. Kind of. That one seems messier, like it happened towards the end and the creators went, "Well now what?" It seems like the end result was some kind of romantic resolution though. And there are half a dozen other ways to pull that off).

Oh, it had an impact on the show in the case of Valvrave. spoiler[Haruto is very clearly shown as having never forgiven himself or gotten over it, even though Saki never held it against him. It was definitely a lingering part of how, unlike the others, he was never able to fully accept or adjust to being whatever they called their vampire-like status, and that forever after made his contacts with Saki awkward.]


Fair enough. I felt like it happened so late in the series, that it wasn't quite swept under the rug so much as swept into the second season with the implication that "we'll deal with this fully in that season". Unless his spoiler[marriage proposal] was supposed to be the resolution of that. I dunno; somehow, I don't feel like awkward interactions was an appropriate endgame for that big of an incident, so maybe Valvrave is just saving that for a later date.
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Hektor6766



Joined: 10 Aug 2014
Posts: 25
PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 10:12 am Reply with quote
I refuse to sympathize with anyone who desires to have their personal autonomy taken from them, whether by censorship or by assault. I have been accosted by both genders on occasions, and in every instance I have expressed my offense at the personal intrusion. I avoided violence each time, but if the situations had escalated, I would fight to incapacity or death to not be abused. I always welcome courteous communication of others' attraction. But it must be acknowledged that there is a working mind and strong spirit inside this body. We have become so inarticulate that we cannot express the intensity of our ardor, or would desire physical force in place of verbal proposition and respectful even if insistent audience for our voluntary answer. To will away your will, even in fantasy, is self-demeaning and unworthy of respect from others. Denying another's free will is cruelty. But so is failure to point out potential harm. As a self-respecting adult, I demand my choice, I assume their responsibilities, and accept constructive criticism or opinion. In civilized society, it is not asking too much to expect those qualities from others.
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whiskeyii



Joined: 29 May 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 10:28 am Reply with quote
Hektor6766 wrote:
I refuse to sympathize with anyone who desires to have their personal autonomy taken from them, whether by censorship or by assault. [snip] We have become so inarticulate that we cannot express the intensity of our ardor, or would desire physical force in place of verbal proposition and respectful even if insistent audience for our voluntary answer. To will away your will, even in fantasy, is self-demeaning and unworthy of respect from others.


If this is in reference to the aforementioned rape fantasies, I would strongly suggest reading these two posts by Tuor_of_Gondolin:

Tuor_of_Gondolin wrote:
The main difference between NC (non-consentual) sex and rape, as far as I understand it, is that NC sex is intended to be enjoyed by the "victim", whereas rape is solely about ruthlessly dominating the victim in a way that is NOT meant to be enjoyed, but to traumatize and to destroy the ego of the victim. One is a "game" between two people, the other is a malicious and cruel attack.


Tuor_of_Gondolin wrote:
With NC sex, *both parties* are, on some level, willing participants. Even the "victim" is mainly *playing* at being the victim while secretly enjoying the experience. In "real" rape, that is *not* the case: there is no fantasy being enjoyed by the victim, only a nightmare. There are lots of NC sex stories/fantasies out there, but I doubt anyone wants to experience actually being raped. Unfortunately, it is very easy to conflate these two things, especially by people who do not have that particular quirk.


Rape fantasies fall much, much more in line with non-con literature and media, as opposed to the violence and dehumanization of real life rape. In non-con, the interaction is wanted and desired; there's no true loss of free will, because both parties are ultimately consenting.
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Hektor6766



Joined: 10 Aug 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:09 am Reply with quote
Non-consensual means not by consent. Stop equivocating; I'll not fall into such a clumsy obfuscatory trap. Consensual role-play is entirely different. I have satisfied such requests, convincingly, but it would leave me rather depressed. Sensuality is easily obtained but not satisfying. Brutality, even pretended, is distressing. Love and the happiness it brings is far superior to me.

Last edited by Hektor6766 on Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:33 am; edited 1 time in total
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Tuor_of_Gondolin



Joined: 20 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:33 am Reply with quote
Hektor6766 wrote:
Non-consensual means not by consent. Stop equivocating; I'll not fall into such a clumsy obfuscatory trap. Consensual role-play is entirely different. I have acquiesced to such requests, played my role to ovations, but it would leave me rather depressed. Gratification is not enough for me. Love and the joy it brings is far superior to me.

Consensual RP merely means that both parties overtly consent to having sex. Rape fantasies are not a type of Consensual RP because the *point* of such fantasies is that consent has not been overtly given.

I was not trying to obfuscate things. I was merely trying to describe the shades involved in this sort of thing. However, I freely admit that I'm not sure how accurate my description of these labels has been. I'm just trying to describe my own interpretation of them.
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Hektor6766



Joined: 10 Aug 2014
Posts: 25
PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:48 am Reply with quote
[quote=I was not trying to obfuscate things. I was merely trying to describe the shades involved in this sort of thing. However, I freely admit that I'm not sure how accurate my description of these labels has been. I'm just trying to describe my own interpretation of them.[/quote]

Then call it what it is: Rape-fantasy. Pretended rape. Still disturbing to me, though if others wish to participate, let them assume the consequences, overt or intimate.
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Hektor6766



Joined: 10 Aug 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:04 pm Reply with quote
Bottom line: I hold myself in such high regard that I want to be overpowered by another's appeal, not by their force or manipulation. And I would urge others to hold themselves to that standard.
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Polycell



Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Posts: 4623
PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:04 pm Reply with quote
We get it: you don't like the rape fantasy that sell so well in the romance genre. That's fine, but don't act like you're somehow morally superior for it.
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Hektor6766



Joined: 10 Aug 2014
Posts: 25
PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:59 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
We get it: you don't like the rape fantasy that sell so well in the romance genre. That's fine, but don't act like you're somehow morally superior for it.


You don't get it. It's about vitality, not morality. It's about admiration, not humiliation. It's about courage, not dejection. It's about tonic, not venom. Your malice comes off as envy. Like rape fantasies being so commercially popular, it's rather pitiful.
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Alan45
Village Elder



Joined: 25 Aug 2010
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Location: Virginia
PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 3:41 pm Reply with quote
@Hektor6766
Your inability to accept that different people have different beliefs about private amusements is rather pitiful. I don't share these fantasies but I see nothing wrong in other people doing so.
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Cptn_Taylor



Joined: 08 Nov 2013
Posts: 925
PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 4:01 pm Reply with quote
whiskeyii wrote:
818941 wrote:
Meanwhile a real person got jailed for NO CRIME AT ALL animenewsnetwork.com/news/2014-10-19/u.k-man-sentenced-for-prohibited-images-of-manga-children/.80103
and I don't see any of you fearmongering, bleeding-heart hypocrites denouncing that.


You and I will probably never see eye-to-eye about Cross Ange, and that's fine. Your interpretation of Cross Ange is valid, just as mine is. You see exactly what the creators are attempting to portray: a dark revenge story. I'm reading between the lines and seeing what kind of viewpoints the creators could have possibly had to create a story like this.



@ Whiskeyii : Reading between the lines is your problem. Unless you're the author, it's very easy to read things that simply aren't there. You have to be careful when "reading between the lines". The only sure way to know what the motivations of the authors were is simply to ask them. When they come to conventions. A simple and direct question : what were you aiming for when you made Cross Ange ? An attack on womanhood ? A rape porn fantasy to justify real life rape ? Otherwise what you see as the intention is simply a fabrication with no real substance.

To give you a concrete example : the little cord that goes from the character's suit to the mecha. Everyone and I mean everyone from before the first episode took that to mean/infer the girls were operated on in a rapey way. And yet in the anime there is no element that lets you come to this conclusion. The simple answer is almost always the good one : that cord is simply a connection between the suit and the mecha. Put there for fanservice because to see it you must place yourself behind the girl and hence see her generous bottom. Nothing more nothing less.

Your interpretation of the anime is not as good as mine. Mine is based on what I see in the anime. Your's is based on inventing what is simply not there.
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