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Maria the Virgin Witch (TV).


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Rogueywon



Joined: 01 May 2011
Posts: 249
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:31 pm Reply with quote
Harleyquin wrote:
Rogueywon wrote:



The one thing in the show that it wouldn't be ridiculous to use as a teaching aid is its depictions of late medieval armies. The rag-tag combinations of barely-armed peasantry, professional mercenaries and elite knights is spot on, and a pleasant antidote to the "fields of streaming banners" impression that people take from the Lord of the Rings movies and the like.



I humbly request your expert opinion on whether the primitive arquebus/firearm weapon portrayed last week as well as the artificial arm debut this week are anachronistic or historically accurate relative to the timescale.


I have no idea. Way outside of my period for technical detail like that. Best I can do is "umm... possibly?".

The Edward Elric prosthetic arm on the other hand is right out. As is Galfa's selfish failure to spend weeks fighting off infection and probably dying from it. The big anachronism traps that historical fiction tends to fall into are, in descending order of importance, morality, antibiotics and communications.
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Yttrbio
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:44 pm Reply with quote
I don't know why you wouldn't expect a response, Harleyquin

1. I've been using Michael and God interchangeably for this show, and haven't seen much to suggest we're supposed to perceive a distinction. The fact that Ezekiel could miss is an interesting idea, which raises questions about free will. (I don't know that we have a clear explanation of what sort of entity Ezekiel is within the show's context) Michael specifically notes the situation imposed on Maria is from God, not him.

Theologically, everything is God's plan, including every rape. But I'm specifically referring to the fact that, if the goal is to get Maria to check her arrogance and thoughtlessness, which is how I interpreted what Michael said, that only works if sex is a positive thing for Maria, which wouldn't be the case in a rape situation.

2. Obviously it works on the generic villain level. I'm mentioning a way in which it's twisted specifically connected to the show's themes, as well.

3. God doesn't intervene in what happens down below, so long as red lines aren't crossed. He still cares (or at least, Michael does), otherwise, there would be no need for the red line in the first place. Here, God did intervene, which is itself crossing the red line set out for Maria, which struck me as another thematically-relevant twisting of the situation. I missed where "wrong actions cancel out each other" comes from.
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HaruhiToy



Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 4118
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:01 pm Reply with quote
Rogueywon wrote:
But having Maria as the perspective-character means that it can't really be used to teach about that world. Because Maria is, in essence, an early 21st Century teenager transposed across the centuries. Her viewpoints and values are those of the early 21st century. She has a particular pacifism that would have been unthinkable until the 20th century, plus a whole range of other attitudes that just don't align with the setting.

Well ... not to mention her practicing kick-ass magic that defies all known physics. I would suggest that that her obvious "not-real-worldness" would serve actually to remind the class that this is not real history. And the sexy sub-stories would keep them interested which is probably the biggest challenge with 7-12 students.

I was thinking not so much teaching real history as much as providing a solid illustration of what happens when clergy wields significant (or even ultimate) political power. Of course I think it would be better for them to learn the real history and maybe 10-20% of the students get into it and the rest are bored to tears. They just don't see the relevance of it to their own lives. A cute 21st century girl (who might be having sex any minute now) on the scene does very well for this.

And something like your own essay what it was REALLY like and what REALLY happened is suddenly easier to relate to.

It probably won't work. But I saw what my mom went through trying to teach 7th graders in poor-section schools and I can't help daydreaming of some way to make it better.
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Key
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:15 pm Reply with quote
Harleyquin wrote:
I humbly request your expert opinion on whether the primitive arquebus/firearm weapon portrayed last week as well as the artificial arm debut this week are anachronistic or historically accurate relative to the timescale.

Though a Math teacher now, I actually was (essentially) a History major within secondary education, and the the late Middle Ages through Reformation era was one of my areas of concentration. (I have previously written papers on Joan of Arc and European witchcraft persecutions, for instance.)

The existence of prosthetic limbs in the 1440s would not have been anachronistic; there are, in fact, many documented cases of them. They were typically made by armor smiths and weren't very functional, as they were used mostly either to hide the absence of a hand/arm or to enable the warrior to still carry a shield on an arm missing a hand, but they did exist. Ones that made use of hinges didn't come along until a few decades later, so Galfa even manually being able to bend his artificial fingers is a stretch, but him having one isn't.

And the handheld firearms that were being used in episode 6 are hand cannons, not arquebuses. You can tell the difference because it doesn't use a matchlock, but rather has a lit match manually lowered into the firing pan. See this picture of Galfa holding one and notice the long fuselike cord wrapped around his wrist?



That is a pretty accurate recreation of what a hand cannon was. Arquebuses were first used in significant quantities in European warfare a couple of decades after the end of the Hundred Years War, but hand cannons could easily have been around on the battlefields of France at this time. Wouldn't surprise me at all that mercenaries probably would have been the most likely to use them.

In general, I have found the depictions of warfare in this series to be remarkably well-done, both on the equipment and tactical front. In fact, except for the apparel of Maria, her familiars, and the other witches, I have been quite pleased with the level of realistic historical detail.
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Harleyquin



Joined: 29 May 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:48 am Reply with quote
Alright, so hand cannons and prosthetic limbs all available at least by the 1440s in this world. So...

1. If I'm not mistaken, the English forces in this series spoiler[fall back to Normandy in order for them to retreat to England. John lost Normandy by 1204, so why are the English armies here still able to use it as a place of resupply? Shouldn't they have gone to Calais or Harfleur instead since it's the tail-end of the Hundred Years War and only Calais is still tenuously held by England? Furthermore, this week's episode mentioned the non-humanoid races being forced out from the north due to excessive fighting. Even the campaigns of Henry V didn't make any impact near Paris. ]

2. So Galfa and his merry band of mercenaries are doing most of the fighting for France. Why not for the English? Assuming I remembered correctly, they too paid for mercenaries since there were only so many archers you could conscript from Wales.

3. That's a very generous French noble affording to give most of his conscripts platemail helmets (and in Joseph's case) armour. If he's complaining so much about the cost of Galfa's company, why pay the extra expense to outfit the peasants under his command with expensive plate?

4. Set-piece battles so far involve skirmishes between archers (longbowmen) on the English side and Crossbows (shielded) on the French. So why are they talking about cannons and the use of (primitive and very inaccurate) hand mortars this week? That's quite a span of weaponry deployed within what is nominally a much narrower time-frame between the composition of the different armies.

Again, asking for more expert opinion. It might just be I've misread the timeframe of this series relative to actual events.
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Harleyquin



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:58 am Reply with quote
Yttrbio wrote:


1. I've been using Michael and God interchangeably for this show, and haven't seen much to suggest we're supposed to perceive a distinction. The fact that Ezekiel could miss is an interesting idea, which raises questions about free will. (I don't know that we have a clear explanation of what sort of entity Ezekiel is within the show's context) Michael specifically notes the situation imposed on Maria is from God, not him.

Theologically, everything is God's plan, including every rape. But I'm specifically referring to the fact that, if the goal is to get Maria to check her arrogance and thoughtlessness, which is how I interpreted what Michael said, that only works if sex is a positive thing for Maria, which wouldn't be the case in a rape situation.

2. Obviously it works on the generic villain level. I'm mentioning a way in which it's twisted specifically connected to the show's themes, as well.

3. God doesn't intervene in what happens down below, so long as red lines aren't crossed. He still cares (or at least, Michael does), otherwise, there would be no need for the red line in the first place. Here, God did intervene, which is itself crossing the red line set out for Maria, which struck me as another thematically-relevant twisting of the situation. I missed where "wrong actions cancel out each other" comes from.


1. Not sure if there's any theological background for rape. Sexual union is a feature of some religion, but isn't it supposed to be consensual? Ezekiel has already been named at the start as Michael's subordinate (she's an angel who knows about sex) who doubles up as spoiler[Michael's Spear ]

There's also Bernard's own admission that he has a devil inside him which ostensibly God is supposed to be keep in check. So who gives the inspiration for the rape, the devil inside him or the God he supposedly serves?

2. I don't see the connection. I see Bernard as using religion as a pretext to get what he wants. The connection you're making is very convenient for him after he reacts so adversely to Galfa's confession.

3. Rape (not sure if there's any way I'd justify that as morally or theologically sound) and overt and outright abuse of supernatural powers (what Maria is doing) both being "wrong" actions in the eyes of the God in this series and the former being used to eventually cancel out the latter according to Bernard's scheme. For an omniscient and omnipotent monotheistic God, surprising tolerance of other supernatural forces like the Valkyrie and Cernunnos.
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Key
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:16 am Reply with quote
Harleyquin wrote:
Alright, so hand cannons and prosthetic limbs all available at least by the 1440s in this world.

And in our world. There's no need for it to be "alternate" on this point.

Quote:
1. If I'm not mistaken, the English forces in this series fall back to Normandy in order for them to retreat to England. John lost Normandy by 1204, so why are the English armies here still able to use it as a place of resupply? Shouldn't they have gone to Calais or Harfleur instead since it's the tail-end of the Hundred Years War and only Calais is still tenuously held by England?

England did regain control of Normandy from 1415-1450, so there's no inconsistency here.

Quote:
Furthermore, this week's episode mentioned the non-humanoid races being forced out from the north due to excessive fighting. Even the campaigns of Henry V didn't make any impact near Paris.

The whole series seems to be taking place north of Paris, so I don't see any issue here.

Quote:
2. So Galfa and his merry band of mercenaries are doing most of the fighting for France. Why not for the English? Assuming I remembered correctly, they too paid for mercenaries since there were only so many archers you could conscript from Wales.

We may have seen some, but they just haven't been specifically identified as mercenaries.

Quote:
3. That's a very generous French noble affording to give most of his conscripts platemail helmets (and in Joseph's case) armour. If he's complaining so much about the cost of Galfa's company, why pay the extra expense to outfit the peasants under his command with expensive plate?

The common conscript having a metal helmet is, at best, a stretch. Definitely wouldn't be out of line for paid infantry (which was on the rise at this point) or mercenaries, though, nor for a favored vassal like Joseph.

Quote:
4. Set-piece battles so far involve skirmishes between archers (longbowmen) on the English side and Crossbows (shielded) on the French. So why are they talking about cannons and the use of (primitive and very inaccurate) hand mortars this week? That's quite a span of weaponry deployed within what is nominally a much narrower time-frame between the composition of the different armies.

No real problem here; bows and firearms coexisted for a couple of centuries on the battlefield since they had different strengths and weaknesses. (Early firearms had greater penetrating power, intimidation factor, and could be used shotgun-style, but bows had a higher rate of fire and were much more accurate at anything beyond short range.)
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Harleyquin



Joined: 29 May 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:18 pm Reply with quote
Thanks for that, I had forgotten that the English briefly held Normandy again just before they were kicked out permanently.

It's an "alternate" world for me since the world in the series has powerful witches who can summon fantastical monsters to stop battles.

Paris is quite far north, so how much further north can one go before one gets to Scandinavia? Where's the source for the setting being set north of Paris by the way?

The girl's father is definitely a conscript, but him and his fellow villagers all get helmets as standard issue. Do they count as paid infantry? Joseph I can understand since he's an exception and freely admits it to Galfa when they first meet.

I had forgotten to ask this previously, but if the setting is the 15th century and not the 13th, why are the respective Kings not involved? The French King's control over his territory was far stronger than in previous centuries so it's strange that the local lord is being left to his own devices with just the household cavalry acting autonomously. The same for the English commander since the nobility across the shore would not engage in independent chevauchees unless they were paid to do so by the King who was already the driving force for expeditions to France by the reign of Henry V.
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Gina Szanboti



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:57 pm Reply with quote
Harleyquin wrote:
Paris is quite far north, so how much further north can one go before one gets to Scandinavia?

Well, due north, never. Just open ocean 150 miles away. Northeast by land, you need to get through Belgium, Netherlands and Germany to reach the nearest Scandinavian country, Denmark. Northwest, London is only about 200 miles away (by contrast, Marceille is 400 miles southeast).

I forgot this later, but I remember being worried when Ezekiel gave Anne the medicine for her grandmother. Is it possible she gave her the wrong medicine and actually did cause her sudden illness?

Also, I ran across this collection of the next episode title cards in the ED. I hadn't realized they were connected this way. Smile
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Harleyquin



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:05 pm Reply with quote
Gina Szanboti wrote:
Harleyquin wrote:
Paris is quite far north, so how much further north can one go before one gets to Scandinavia?

Well, due north, never. Just open ocean 150 miles away. Northeast by land, you need to get through Belgium, Netherlands and Germany to reach the nearest Scandinavian country, Denmark. Northwest, London is only about 200 miles away (by contrast, Marceille is 400 miles southeast).

I forgot this later, but I remember being worried when Ezekiel gave Anne the medicine for her grandmother. Is it possible she gave her the wrong medicine and actually did cause her sudden illness?

Also, I ran across this collection of the next episode title cards in the ED. I hadn't realized they were connected this way. Smile


Wrong country, right question. Quick check of the atlas shows not much territory north of Paris itself before the borders reflect a new country. Still no answer on where "north of Paris" came from, I might have missed a detail in the conversations so help would be appreciated regarding the source.

If it's the forested area close to Calais, it's probably feasible taking into account how the English soldiers moan about the time it takes to retreat to Normandy last week.

Maria doesn't make any medicine outside of Anne's grandmother, that's why Ezekiel merely remarked that she had to remember where the pre-packaged powder was before passing it to Anne.

Skip the ED song and trailer and this is what you get. By the end of this series some of the characters in the still image won't be visible because of the number of people on screen.
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Gina Szanboti



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:52 pm Reply with quote
Harleyquin wrote:
Maria doesn't make any medicine outside of Anne's grandmother, that's why Ezekiel merely remarked that she had to remember where the pre-packaged powder was before passing it to Anne.

But Maria surely makes other potions that she might store in similar bags. And what Ezekiel said was, "The medicine must be around somewhere." Not a matter of remembering, but rather never paying attention before. Also Ezekiel never told her that she gave her medicine, only that Anne came to ask for protection for her father. That omission bothered me at the time, but like I said, I forgot later.

Also on the topic of medicine, that last title card shows Edwina dropping in on the priests. Does that suggest that Bernard got Martha's medicine from her?
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Harleyquin



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:56 pm Reply with quote
Gina Szanboti wrote:

But Maria surely makes other potions that she might store in similar bags.

Also on the topic of medicine, that last title card shows Edwina dropping in on the priests. Does that suggest that Bernard got Martha's medicine from her?


If she did make other potions, she wouldn't have had to start afresh with her visitor this week.

Both Maria and the priests have a common supplier, only the latter can't be open about it or they'd lose all credibility. My guess (completely unfounded as it may be) is that Anne's grandmother got a "special order".
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Gina Szanboti



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:09 pm Reply with quote
Harleyquin wrote:
If she did make other potions, she wouldn't have had to start afresh with her visitor this week.

I don't see what one has to do with the other. Some medicines need to be whipped up fresh, some don't. What's not poisonous to non-humans might be to humans. Not all "potions" are medicinal. She may have ingredients around for her cauldron spells when she goes to stop wars, and such things might be mistaken for medicine by the untrained. Anyway, it was just a thought. Martha's sudden collapse just seemed oddly timed with her last batch of medicine from Ezekiel.
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Harleyquin



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:08 pm Reply with quote
Gina Szanboti wrote:

I don't see what one has to do with the other. Some medicines need to be whipped up fresh, some don't. What's not poisonous to non-humans might be to humans. Not all "potions" are medicinal. She may have ingredients around for her cauldron spells when she goes to stop wars, and such things might be mistaken for medicine by the untrained. Anyway, it was just a thought. Martha's sudden collapse just seemed oddly timed with her last batch of medicine from Ezekiel.


Your hypothesis may or may not be proven right over the coming weeks, alternatively it might just be an oversight on the creator's part. I find the "wrong medicine" hypothesis unlikely simply because Ezekiel had witnessed handovers before and would have some inkling of what the usual package would look like despite her lack of herbology knowledge.
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Stark700



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:17 am Reply with quote
Episode 9:

Sigh, Maria is spoiler[being misunderstood so much by some of other characters. Glad to see Viv taking a stand this week though by going up against the Archangel Michael. Takes a lot of guts to do that..]

And also, I wonder if or rather when spoiler[she will be able to regain her magic?]

Glad to see spoiler[Galfa fail though.]
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