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EP. REVIEW: Maria the Virgin Witch


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HaruhiToy



Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 4118
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:17 pm Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
That should be obvious.

I guess I'm more tired than I thought.

it is a shame to read that this anime isn't selling very high numbers in Japan because I would like to see more like it. I wouldn't even mind seeing someone try to write another season for Maria. There are a lot of interesting possibilities to explore with regard to her future relationship with her "neighbors" and the human church if not the church of heaven. And there are so many mysterious things about the witches I would like to see more of. Where was Viv when I was single anyway.
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Eldritcho



Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 260
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:30 pm Reply with quote
InstallGeneru wrote:

This would just mean she is a flawed person,right?Which would mean in this case a more realistic character.During the very last scenes of the show it seemed as if she matured in that specific matter ( trying to integrate into humanity and all.)


Maybe saving it for literally the last minute doesn't exactly strike me as good character development, especially when the series takes her side on most everything for the entire rest of it's run.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2941
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:56 pm Reply with quote
JesuOtaku wrote:


If an unusually large population of female anime fans say a work is feminist, I think they have plenty of ground to stand on. It can be both things. We understand (extremely well) how you feel about the show and what you think people should and shouldn't believe about it, but there is plenty of extremely valid argument for Maria as a feminist work. To some other non-CK posters, this does not mean it is "pushing a FEMNIMSM agenda," because despite what certain corners of internet bigotry may have told you, feminism is not and has never been about the suppression of men, only the equality of women. Unfortunately, I already know trying to explain that to some people is a waste of my time, so I'll just leave that where it lies.


I think there are some things to be taken away from this story. I think Maria is portrayed as a somewhat inspirational figure, and the show did a good job of telling an entertaining story about her triumphing over a fundamentalist religion that wanted to keep her down and stop her from saving people. I'd rate this show as good. The only reason I wouldn't rate it "very good" is because she had no growth.

However, I think there is some reaching going on to pile on praise for the show. The "advancing feminism" praise is just part of that, in my opinion. I've already gone over all the reasons why I think it is pretty absurd to pile that much more praise on the show, so I won't go through it all again, but I certainly do recognize that Maria can serve as an inspirational individual female lead. If someone wants to call that feminism, then so be it. However, I do have a question for you: if 10 people came up to you and told you Hugh Hefner was a feminist hero because he empowers women by hiring them as playboy bunnies, would you say "Well, because of peer pressure, I'd better agree Hugh Hefner was a feminist hero." Or, would you say, "You know what? No. He's not a feminist hero. He might be a very smart and successful businessman, and that's fine, but I'm not going to put him at that level of a feminist hero." I know what my answer would be.

Quote:

Anyway CK, badgering people with your trademark 30-post needling doesn't change how they feel, it just turns the thread into your giant unreadable soapbox.


So it's my soapbox because a couple people respond to all my posts with their own opinions? No. If it was my soapbox, i'd be the only one posting. Instead, what you've gotten was a lengthy and spirited debate about this show, which frankly, I'm sure is the kind of thing that helps pay the bills around this here website. Smile
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nobahn
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Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 5120
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:05 pm Reply with quote
ChibiKangaroo wrote:
Instead, what you've gotten was a lengthy and spirited debate about this show, which frankly, I'm sure is the kind of thing that helps pay the bills around this here website.

No, what pays the bills are ad-clicks and subscriptions.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2941
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:13 pm Reply with quote
nobahn wrote:

No, what pays the bills are ad-clicks and subscriptions.


The point is that the forums help bring people to the website repeatedly so they can see the ads. If people have a reason to keep coming back to the site, they are more likely to click ads and subscribe. People enjoy talking about the shows and other content. If they didn't, ANN wouldn't bother with a forum.
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nobahn
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:18 pm Reply with quote
^
Only an administrator could say for certain, but it's my understanding that that not all clicks are equal; that clicks on advertisements on the bulletin board pages produce less income per click than clicks where the articles are found.

Of course, I could be wrong.
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trilaan



Joined: 17 Jan 2009
Posts: 1053
Location: Texas
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:21 pm Reply with quote
What a great show, definitely a new favorite. Geez I can't believe it took me until just before it was actually said aloud to realize spoiler[that the forest entity was Cernunnos.]
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2941
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:27 pm Reply with quote
nobahn wrote:
^
Only an administrator could say for certain, but it's my understanding that that not all clicks are equal; that clicks on advertisements on the bulletin board pages produce less income per click than clicks where the articles are found.

Of course, I could be wrong.


I'm sure that there are differences among the different clicks. I could see clicks on the home page being the most expensive, for example. Whatever the scheme is, that makes sense. My point is that people repeatedly coming back to the website to have a lengthy debate, or for any other reason, is not a bad thing for ANN. It's ridiculous to suggest as such. It's one thing if people are getting rowdy and cursing each other out and need to be moderated. But the mere fact that a debate is long is not some sign of big scary problems.
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nobahn
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:00 pm Reply with quote
^
Just so long as you're not beating a dead horse.....
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 23667
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:00 pm Reply with quote
HaruhiToy wrote:
it is a shame to read that this anime isn't selling very high numbers in Japan because I would like to see more like it. I wouldn't even mind seeing someone try to write another season for Maria.


Agreed. This is one of those titles that I plan to follow up by checking out the manga just to see if some aspects that aren't super clear to me right now might clarify.
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JacobC
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Joined: 15 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:19 pm Reply with quote
ChibiKangaroo wrote:

However, I think there is some reaching going on to pile on praise for the show. The "advancing feminism" praise is just part of that, in my opinion. I've already gone over all the reasons why I think it is pretty absurd to pile that much more praise on the show, so I won't go through it all again, but I certainly do recognize that Maria can serve as an inspirational individual female lead. If someone wants to call that feminism, then so be it. However, I do have a question for you: if 10 people came up to you and told you Hugh Hefner was a feminist hero because he empowers women by hiring them as playboy bunnies, would you say "Well, because of peer pressure, I'd better agree Hugh Hefner was a feminist hero." Or, would you say, "You know what? No. He's not a feminist hero. He might be a very smart and successful businessman, and that's fine, but I'm not going to put him at that level of a feminist hero." I know what my answer would be.


So your barely-concealed thesis here is that people who find the show inspiring as a feminist statement are just reaching because of peer pressure or some boogeyman critical narrative, while anyone who doesn't call it feminist is a brave and truthful person sharing an original opinion. That's such ridiculous baloney, I'm not even going to dignify it with a response.

People have different opinions from you about a cartoon. That's literally all it is. They are those people's genuine opinions, and they've been supported heavily by the content of the work itself as valid takes on that material. You can think what you want to think, but that doesn't mean you're the enlightened one and you should have the right to badger everyone until they agree with you. Let it go.

Quote:

Instead, what you've gotten was a lengthy and spirited debate about this show, which frankly, I'm sure is the kind of thing that helps pay the bills around this here website. Smile


We've had lively and spirited debate about the show without your "stop calling this feminist because it's not" obsession, thank you very much. The number of posts in this thread mostly increases when you do that because 2/3 of them are yours.

Also, did you just claim that your rants and serial soapbox posting is responsible for raising traffic and/or revenue on ANN overall because LOL. Really, dude? The reason I'm so hard on you is that, time and again, you have been a force that scares and badgers people out of threads and wastes a lot of moderator time dealing with the fallout. We spend more time tolerating the trouble you cause than thanking you for blessing our forums with a welcoming atmosphere. That is basically the opposite of what you do. Don't even play, CK.

Maybe it would help if I put the issues you cause in the simplest terms possible: Expressing your own opinion, Good. Making 20 posts to tell other people their opinions are stupid, Bad. Please do more of the former and less of the latter, love o' god.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2941
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:20 pm Reply with quote
nobahn wrote:
^
Just so long as you're not beating a dead horse.....


When someone points out an instance of me campaigning about some specific cause apart from an honest and sincere response to the article, episode, or matter that is the subject of the thread, they can please call me out on it. Until then, I don't think it is helpful to be swooping in and saying they don't like the fact that I have a differing opinion and won't move off it.

JesuOtaku wrote:


So your barely-concealed thesis here is that people who find the show inspiring as a feminist statement are just reaching


Yes, that is what I have said multiple times. I haven't concealed anything here. I've been very forthright with what my thoughts are.

JesuOtaku wrote:

because of peer pressure


No, I was saying that I won't change my opinion purely due to peer pressure. You have been asserting that I should change my opinion due to peer pressure. That is why I asked you if you would do that under the circumstances I illustrated.

Quote:
some boogeyman critical narrative, while anyone who doesn't call it feminist is a brave and truthful person sharing an original opinion.


This is all hyperbole. I simply said, in my opinion, people claiming that this is an important feminist story are reaching. I said they are reaching because they like the show a lot and want to praise it. That's usually what causes people to reach, so it shouldn't be surprising that I would think that.

In my opinion, I am not reaching. Again, that's just how I see it. I'm sure you've had many instances where you were comparing how someone else saw a show and how you saw the show, and you said "They're reaching and I'm not." Don't pretend you've never said that.

Quote:
People have different opinions from you about a cartoon. That's literally all it is. They are those people's genuine opinions, and they've been supported heavily by the content of the work itself as valid takes on that material. You can think what you want to think, but that doesn't mean you're the enlightened one and you should have the right to badger everyone until they agree with you. Let it go.


They don't have to agree with me. I'm not a brainwasher. If someone says something I don't agree with, I generally respond to it unless I feel there's nothing more that can be added. A lot of other people do the same thing. That's why a debate goes on as long as it does. It's wonderful that people have their own opinions. That's the whole purpose of open debate in society. In this particular thread, I happen to be articulating an opinion that is shared by a minority of posters. Great. Maybe you would be glad if people putting forth my opinion would be silenced and not talk about the show. That's up to you. I've responded in a straightforward manner to the reviews and the content from the show, and have done so without foul language or vile attacks. That's what the forums are for, and until someone makes a policy that says "person who disagrees with mod on a show can't talk," I will continue to respond to the actual content in a straightforward and honest manner.

Quote:
We've had lively and spirited debate about the show without your "stop calling this feminist because it's not" obsession, thank you very much. The number of posts in this thread mostly increases when you do that because 2/3 of them are yours.


Yes, like I said, it seems like the position is "we want to keep talking about how great this show is. You're disagreeing vigorously, and we don't need that." I can't control how many people respond to my posts and like I said, if their response is something I don't agree with, I generally reply.

Quote:
Also, did you just claim that your rants and serial soapbox posting is responsible for raising traffic and/or revenue on ANN overall because LOL. Really, dude? The reason I'm so hard on you is that, time and again, you have been a force that scares and badgers people out of threads and wastes a lot of moderator time dealing with the fallout.


I claimed exactly what I said. The mere fact that people are having lengthy debates about shows is not some big problem. It becomes a problem if people start getting nasty and using personal attacks, which I am not doing.

Please show me which of my posts were not in response to someone else's post. I think it will become quite obvious that any such posts were me directly commenting about something mentioned in a review, something that happened in an episode, or some other related matter. If you really believe that is soapboxing then that is unfortunate.


Last edited by ChibiKangaroo on Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:39 pm; edited 2 times in total
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JacobC
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:25 pm Reply with quote
ChibiKangaroo wrote:

When someone points out an instance of me campaigning about some specific cause apart from an honest and sincere response to the article, episode, or matter that is the subject of the thread, they can please call me out on it. Until then, I don't think it is helpful to be swooping in and saying they don't like the fact that I have a differing opinion and won't move off it.


Just to make triple-sure you don't miss this.

JesuOtaku wrote:
Expressing your own opinion, Good. Making 20 posts to tell other people their opinions are stupid, Bad. Please do more of the former and less of the latter, love o' god.


The "specific examples" of when you've bullied people out of threads and moderators had to step in and tell you to lay off are as grains of sand upon a beach, so once again, don't even play.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2941
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:43 pm Reply with quote
JesuOtaku wrote:

Expressing your own opinion, Good. Making 20 posts to tell other people their opinions are stupid, Bad. Please do more of the former and less of the latter, love o' god.

The "specific examples" of when you've bullied people out of threads and moderators had to step in and tell you to lay off are as grains of sand upon a beach, so once again, don't even play.


Again, my posts are of two kinds: (1) I directly respond to something mentioned in an article, an episode, or some other related matter, and (2) a direct response to something someone else said to me after I put my own opinion up. Those are the vast majority. Check for yourself. That is not bullying. I do think what usually causes people to get fed up with a thread is when the discussion gets veered far off from the subject into the types of side discussions we are having right now though.

And by the way, I think I should add that I have no problem with you trying to keep threads properly moderated. As I've said before, I think it is difficult to keep people under control in an internet forum. However, I think in this instance it's not necessary to be coming at me this insistently when I've been obeying the rules, just because there has been a lot of back and forth with me and some of the fans of the show.
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JacobC
ANN Contributor


Joined: 15 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:00 pm Reply with quote
ChibiKangaroo wrote:

And by the way, I think I should add that I have no problem with you trying to keep threads properly moderated.


It wouldn't matter if you did have a problem with it. "I don't have a problem with you arresting me officer, but..." That's nice, I don't care. You can think whatever you want to about your attitude and how it's not crappy and harassing (it is), but the only thing that matters is the opinion of the moderators, and multiple mods and admins keep having problems with you and your derails. That's not my opinion or yours, that's just a fact. There's nothing for you to respond to in this post by the way, so don't. This is the Maria the Virgin Witch discussion thread, not the "explain to CK what he keeps doing wrong" thread. I've explained it. Now drop it.

The thread can now move on from this Trademark CK derail back into series discussion, if there's anything more people want to discuss now that the series is over, anyhow.
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