Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: GATE
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HeeroTX
Posts: 2046 Location: Austin, TX |
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I'm still enjoying the show and interested in where it goes, but Episode 9 was definitely a "low point". I think it also had the most "beating you over the head" propaganda. Look, I get that the JSDF is a competent, capable semi-military force. I get that they had "home field advantage" at the onsen. I'm even cool with them overall out maneuvering the American soldiers based on the above points and more. What was ridiculous was out of the very small amount of dialogue given to the American soldiers, we need to make sure they exclaim how incredibly badass the JSDF soldiers are, to the point of saying how they're so superior to ANYONE the Americans have EVER faced, anywhere in the world, in the history of forever. That was just TOO over the top for me.
Also, considering the discussion we had earlier, I'm a little disappointed in the President's methods. Considering all the options at his disposal, I'm disappointed that he strong-armed the Prime Minister with basic "scandal" information. That seems more like a maneuver that a Japanese politician would use, rather than a foreign power, especially one like the US, since it can be "diffused" by the Minister stepping down like he is planning to do. |
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SilverTalon01
Posts: 2402 |
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Was it ridiculous? Sure. Propaganda though? Come on. How many movies or series, Japanese or Western, can you think of where the good guys are the best most skilled bad asses in the history of the planet? That happens all the time. But somehow because this time it is about the SDF, it is being made into a big deal.
What discussion earlier? You mean the pretty ridiculous idea that the US would intervene overtly with force? Or that crying to the United Nations would get a country to bend to its will? This makes far more sense. It is a strategic attack on a specific person who has the power to give them what they want which they can keep under the table. Can he diffuse it later? Actually not really. Yes, the PM can negate further use of the black mail material by stepping down (at least the series implies he can). The Americans don't care though because they will already have taken the guests captive which wouldn't be 'diffused' later even if the PM stepped down. Obviously that isn't what is going to happen, but the Americans think that is what will happen which makes their black mail plan a solid idea. |
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BassKuroi
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Just because everybody does the same thing, it doesn't mean that thing isn't propaganda. Anyway, Some people seem to be angry because they kicked US special forces' ass and JSDF was ordered to retreat even when they're obviously winning (killing them like rabbits); Americans were saved of being totally killed by a political, corrupt and coward movement. That is what you call military propaganda: militar efficiency can only be stopped by political cowardice. I didn't read the manga or novels, but I predict that in the next episode, spoiler[even if the JSDF special forces retreat, Itami and friends will take care of any foreign special forces]. |
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SilverTalon01
Posts: 2402 |
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You're right. It doesn't mean that it isn't. However,unless you're saying every single book, movie, or tv series where the good guys are the best most skilled bad asses in the history of the planet is propaganda then that means it is possible this isn't propaganda as well. Propaganda isn't the only reason for having OP good guys. Maybe it was intended that way, maybe it wasn't. Calling it "beating you over the head propaganda" is being dishonest because that is disregarding the very real possibility there was another reason.
Much better example than what he was throwing out. However, those same events support an anti-military stance as well: the power of information is greater than the strength of soldiers. Anyway, I'm not going to say there absolutely isn't any whatsoever, but is it 'beating you over the head' more than other war related movies/series/books? Not really. So trying to make a big deal out of it here seems like over reacting. |
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BassKuroi
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I can imagine another reason, but I'm open to the possibility that is not always a conscious action. But not this time, as, for example, Rambo III, they're too obvious efforts.
A not so optimistic version of your statement would be Clausewitz's aphorism: "War is the continuation of politics by other means." |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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I appreciated the fanservice in the onsen, but that was the highlight of a rather dreary week. The characters walking around Tokyo without anyone recognising them, and the lame, tension-less battle at the end - plus the dubious and stupid political action that accompanied it - all served to make this an unimpressive episode. Itami's ex-wife got some character development, but it only highlighted the zero development given to most of the other girls surrounding him.
And with each week that passes I am growing increasingly annoyed at just how special Itami is made out to be. Oh, so he counts the defence minister as a personal friend, does he? This asinine wish-fulfilment crap is getting out of hand. There were a lot of otaku references in episode nine. Examples include Evangelion's "another unfamiliar ceiling" and the Fate franchise's Grail and Servants. Spotting the references at least made the episode tolerable. |
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SilverTalon01
Posts: 2402 |
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Unless, I'm forgetting something Rambo III is exactly what I'm talking about. From I and II you can expect he will hand the other guys their asses in a rather one sided fashion. Yeah, in Rambo III he goes and fights the super evil communists. That doesn't make the fact that he for the most part takes on the red army single handedly propaganda. He is Rambo, he was doing that from the very beginning to everyone. Now the fact that the bad guys were communists in the first place, sure that is pretty obvious.
That isn't really the same. What I said was more about the comparative strength of one's 'weapons'. Basically a 'the pen is mightier than the sword' type statement. What you are talking about is really the relationship between war and politics.
Putting aside whether or not is it good/bad, does that shock you? Anime main characters being 'special' is pretty much par for the course, especially in action oriented shows. I tend to expect them to be special, and then just be pleasantly surprised if they take a non standard approach. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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No, I'm not shocked. However I am disappointed, as Itami was originally just a geeky everyman who happened to be in the wrong place at the right time. Now he's a ranger and in the special forces and he passed both without really trying and he has a cute wife (well, ex-wife now) that he didn't have to romance because she originally just wanted his money and he's a friend of the defence minister. And he has the two prettiest women in the Japanese military as his subordinates. And he's got a horny legal loli throwing herself at him. AND he's about to take out several American special forces guys, because of course he is. So to reiterate, I am not shocked. Not at all. But this series makes more of an effort than most in extolling the virtues of its MC, and I'm getting tired of it. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18189 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Yeah, thanks for bringing that up, as I had intended to mention those but completely forgot about them when I actually wrote the review. |
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SilverTalon01
Posts: 2402 |
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Completely fair.
While most of what you mentioned did just get tossed in there later on, I don't really think this part is that entirely accurate. Maybe some people saw him that way in episode 1, but what I saw suggested that Itami was a lot more than just a regular soldier. I'm not saying I thought he was the super awesome special forces guy we just found out about, but that he would be a ranger or something like that seemed highly likely. Maybe I'm alone on this, but I don't expect your typical GI guy to remain calm when an army of knights attacks out of no where and then go in alone and basically take control of the situation. I wouldn't expect your regular GI to not handle it much, if at all, better than the police officers who Itami greatly over shadowed. Itami easily took out that knight while being unarmed then quickly assessed the situation and came up with a plan to protect the civilians. So geeky, sure. Everyman, not at all.
I don't think so, as far as action anime go at least. Being fairly bad ass (even if sometimes not from episode 1) and having multiple cute girls throwing themselves at the MC is pretty standard. Last edited by SilverTalon01 on Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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HeeroTX
Posts: 2046 Location: Austin, TX |
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THIS is my problem with the last episode. I actually have no issue with Itami being a badass. He's the main character, you just kinda roll with that (like your Rambo example). My issue is when Itami is in the onsen and it is OTHER JSDF guys hammering the Americans. And AGAIN, even that in and of itself was not an issue to me, my PROBLEM was that they felt the need to ham-fistedly have the AMERICANS say "holy cow, these are far and away the best fighters I've ever faced". You want to tell me that Itami is Gate's version of Rambo or any other movie/tv badass, then that's totally cool. But I am a little more put off when either EVERY JSDF guy is basically that way (unless in relation to Itami) or all the non-Japanese soldiers are pretty pathetic. THAT is in the "propaganda" realm to me. Also, I actually don't expect Itami to beat up the Americans (altho MAYBE avoid them). Based on the OP, I expect Rory to kick some @$$ next episode. |
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SilverTalon01
Posts: 2402 |
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I agree it was ham-fisted and ridiculous. Not disputing that at all. I just think it is a good bit away from 'beating you over the head with propaganda'. I mean is it even unrealistic at all that those could have been the best fighters they faced? The SDF has a pretty huge amount of funding. I would expect them to perform considerably better than armed militant groups that the special forces usually deals with. It isn't like US special forces routinely end up engaged in battle with elite special forces groups of other first world countries... at least to my knowledge. Now I do find it unrealistic that Japan's would be better than the US, but I don't think they actually said that.
The American comments aside, it wasn't that every SDF guy is a Rambo. They had proper preparation and equipment so that they would win rather lopsidedly isn't that far out there. |
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GhostStalkerSA
 Posts: 425 Location: NYC |
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Yeah, Special Operations forces cross train all the time, especially with those of allied countries. So it's likely that most JSDF SFG operators have trained with American SOCOM personnel (up to and including Rangers, Delta, MARSOC, SEALs, Green Berets, etc), seeing as how the US is Japan's most prominent ally. So the US guy there should've known what his Japanese counterparts were capable of and not been so shocked that they were getting their asses kicked. And yes, when you're in injun country with no intel support, going against an opponent that has prepared defenses, aerial intel, and knows you're coming, even if you're a badass SF operator, you're gonna get your ass kicked. Still, the casualty figures are totally lopsided in favor of the JSDF, I would've expected them in any other story to take at least a casualty or two. Or the US SF team leader would've taken a look at the situation, complained to his superiors that he didn't have the intel needed to complete the op and was running into more resistance than expected, and he needed to scrub the operation, the demands of politicians be damned as the lives of his men come first. Also, why are the Japanese SFG being deployed in a VIP protection role anyway? Japan might not have their over version of a Posse Comitatus act that prevents their military from being deployed on their own soil in a law enforcement capability, but usually VIP protection falls to the National Police Agency, so the guards there would likely be more SWAT than SFG. Sure, since Itami is a friend of the Defense Minister, he's likely looking out for him, but that's gotta be breaking some sort of law or stepping on someones toes... With regards to the political blackmail that President Dirrel is holding on the Japanese Prime Minister, why didn't he use that just to get any sort of military or other economic access to the Gate, since that's what he really wants? Since the three girls went on (inter)national television with their appearance at the Diet hearings, their presence in Japan is confirmed. And since they're apparently acting the part of diplomatic envoys (even if Pina and Bozes's visit wasn't exactly advertised), what even is the point of the US sending a black bag snatch team in the first place, when they can just send an intern from their embassy to the Japanese Ministry of Foreign Affairs to request that their ambassador be able to chat with the visitors from beyond the Gate, since by the rules of international diplomacy, Japan can't rightly turn down said request? Sure, Pina and Bozes are off the books so they can't request access to them, unless of course the US has a CIA source or something letting them know they were there (it's implied that the CIA was the ones behind the arson they forced Itami and co out of their planned lodgings at the Ichigaya Garrison guest house, as who else would have the assets in place to set fire to a building on the heavily guarded grounds of the headquarters of the Japanese Ministry of Defense, basically their version of the Pentagon?). But President Dirrell would've been better served using that blackmail information to "request" access to the visitors from the Gate if the Japanese MoFA turned down the request the first time he would've asked... Escalation at that point would likely involve the embassy attache for diplomatic affairs, the chief of mission, and then the ambassador herself (since the current ambassador to Japan is Caroline Kennedy), and the PM can't really turn requests from all those people down, by all the rules of international diplomacy, especially with the scandal information that President Dirrell is holding, unless he suddenly wants to have to resign in disgrace and have Japan's diplomatic standing with its most important ally take a serious hit... I guess I can understand the US SF operators expecting the guards at the Hakone resort to be absent because of the blackmail material that President Dirrell used to threaten the Japanese PM into removing them, but in that case, someone definitely messed up their timetable for deployment and got a whole bunch of US SF operators killed unnecessarily... Of course, in the military almost nothing goes according to plan, so that's to be expected. Still, for their intel to be that bad and the SF team to still be sent in after that, I'm expecting someone's head at SOCOM or the Pentagon is going to be rolling over this debacle... But still, suppose the black bag snatch job does go off without a hitch. What are the US SF operators supposed to do afterwards, take the girls back to the US where some higher ups in the US State Department can talk with them, even though they have no ability to accede to any demands seeing as how the girls aren't exactly representatives of any polity of any sort even on their own side of the Gate? You just snatched them out from under an ally's protection, when said ally still holds the only way for them to get back to their world, and you've likely either injured or killed some of their protectors making the snatch. Do you think they'd be inclined to cooperate with you in any way after you did that... And now do you see why I think every non-Japanese polity in this series has been handed a massive idiot ball? All that being said, I will say that I liked the fact that the anime cut a bunch of the unnecessarily over the top racist stuff that was in the manga version of this scene. I know that the "The only country that uses black soldiers is the United States!" line was only added in the manga and not in the original material, but I'm glad they didn't feel the need to use that line in this episode. There's also a scene with the Japanese Defense Minister musing about the plans of the US, China, and Russia for the territory beyond the Gate that were also completely over the top, and I'm once again glad they didn't touch on them, Russia's especially, as it makes absolutely no sense at all: Russia spoiler[wants to prevent Japan from pumping any oil from beyond the Gate as they think it'll wreck their petro-economy, with the Putin analogue threatening to launch an SLBM at the Gate if they do, according to the Defense Minister]. We've also already seen what China wants to do with the Gate as well in a previous episode, but that doesn't make it any more ludicrous. I also do miss some of the stuff that added some levity in these chapters in the manga, especially the scene where Tomita discovers that Risa is a BL doujin artist and all of the books there in the house are those kinds of material. There's a caption of him thinking about a combat engineer yelling "It's a mine!" when Risa tells him what he's picking up, which was hilarious. It also feeds into the whole "Fine art!" thing Pina and Bozes have going on in the episode when they discover what it is exactly Risa is drawing. I guess becoming a fujoshi is contagious! Last edited by GhostStalkerSA on Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:05 am; edited 1 time in total |
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stilldemented
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It really just boils back down to this being a show with the JSDF as the true protagonist. I mean, it's right there in the title of the show. On one side of the coin you've got Itami's personal journey and on the other side of the coin you've got the mission objectives of the JSDF as a whole.
Itami is pretty much the Uncle Sam of the JSDF for otakus. He's the perfect soldier who places duty above all else (except his hobby). Then you add his elite credentials on top of all that. Plus he's getting a harem of awesome fantasy girls. What's not to love? Join today! haha. 
I don't mean that in a bad way. Just something worth throwing out there. That will eventually rub someone the wrong way, but from what I can gather that's what bothers the other users who have been watching this show. Of course, that's not what the show is about, but there are undertones of it. Whether it is by design or because it just crops up when handling material like this leads to debating in a circle. Like others have said, the show toes the line between realism and fantasy, but has a hard time distinguishing when it wants to be one or the other. When in doubt, just roll with it. The more you think about it, the more the suspension of disbelief cracks. haha. 
Long story short, I got a lot of blanket statements worth throwing out there. Might as well see where it sticks. I do enjoy the show though. It's got good animation, nice character designs, and an entertaining story. That's really all I ever need to be satisfied. I'm easy like that. 
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SilverTalon01
Posts: 2402 |
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I think you're looking too hard for an explanation. They did have normal protection. We saw it previously. The Japanese special forces were probably off book just like the US special forces were.
I don't think they are. I'm pretty sure they were called as witnesses, not diplomatic envoys. In fact, what you're talking about is probably exactly why they kept the actual diplomatic envoys a secret.
Sure they can. All they have to do is say the girls declined to meet with them. They aren't prisoners, they aren't diplomats, and they aren't Japanese citizens. I see absolutely no reason the Japanese government could legally order them to meet with anyone.
That depends on what the US planned to do with them, and honestly I have no clue what that plan is because I can't see any real value in those 3 for a powerful country. If they merely wanted a single conversation to grill them for information before they went home, the President could have probably gotten that. If the US wants to keep them long term, that might look worse for Japan than whatever the black mail material was. I mean maybe the US thinks they can help them open a second gate. Getting granted access isn't really going to be enough. They're going to need forced long term cooperation. I'm not saying there is any reason to think this was the plan, just tossing an example where getting granted access won't get them what they want.
That just isn't true. The story follows Itami. Have we heard anything about what the SDF is doing on the other side since Itami came over? Nope. The only thing we've really seen in the last 2 episodes from the SDF was a small part where a bunch of special forces guys that couldn't even be bothered to get names act as lackeys for the politicians. The SDF is just like the politicians. They're in the background doing 'stuff.' Neither one is a protagonist. |
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