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EP. REVIEW: Classic: Paranoia Agent


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Gina Szanboti



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 11306
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:32 pm Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:
It's been a discussion about art from the beginning. That's because Paranoia Agent is a work of art.

I don't think he believes in art either. I'm not being facetious, it just stands to reason, since he rejects every tool artists use to transmit their vision, other than cutting out the middle-man of the medium and just having them directly tell you in words what their vision is.
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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 7163
Location: Another Kingdom
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:28 pm Reply with quote
Hmm, that could be troublesome for someone like me, who consumes a lot of art and likes to interpret meaning to things.

I would say the logical interpretation is always one of two things: The one that fits the best with what is being depicted, or failing a clear one, the interpretation that's accepted by the largest number of people. That's how scientific theories work too. I mean, how else are you to believe the Earth is round and not flat unless God suddenly shows up and says it's round?

In this case, even without official word from Satoshi Kon, there's a better argument that she's having her first period than her having a bad stomach-ache. I personally think it's one-sided to ask for evidence that she's having her first period without first presenting evidence that she's having a bad stomach-ache.
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DuelGundam2099



Joined: 07 Dec 2014
Posts: 533
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:45 am Reply with quote
leafy wrote:
That's because Paranoia Agent is a work of art.

By technical standards everything not found in nature is art as the word art means "unnatural". Mars of Destruction is art. Skelter Heaven is art. Pokemon is art. Digimon is art. Swimsuits are art. Guns are art. Fanfiction is art. Porn is art. Movie 43 is art and so on. Why? They are all unnatural, so calling Paranoia Agent art is pointless. All art is artificial. The superior term would be sophisticated cultural artifact.
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Silent-era Soviet cinema must be utterly incomprehensible then

More like it is just a bunch of editing techniques used by people at the time to counter propaganda of the reds. Stalin had enough of a brain to realize the majority of them were schlock and demanded an end to it (which failed). I took film history too!
Gina wrote:
since he rejects every tool artists use to transmit their vision

Except at no point did I do so. A tool would be more like chisels, brushes, hammers, pottery ovens, and the like, not references.
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how else are you to believe the Earth is round and not flat unless God suddenly shows up and says it's round?

Scientific evidence.
Quote:
I personally think it's one-sided to ask for evidence that she's having her first period without first presenting evidence that she's having a bad stomach-ache.

Simple: There was pain in the abdominal area, random nonsense happened earlier in the series, random junk happens here, therefore it was logical. The argument and evidence was presented.



Leave that kind of thing out of it. -Galap
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Bonham



Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 419
Location: NYC
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:34 am Reply with quote
DuelGundam2099 wrote:
SailorTralfamadore wrote:
Are you saying they don't know their own work, or are lying about their intentions?

No, what I'm saying is that until the creator confirms the existence of their metaphors I will believe there are none present.

The most bizarre attitude to have, especially considering how Kon's works in general operate. The ending of Paranoia Agent doesn't really make any sort of logical sense, narratively speaking, at the expense of its symbolism and what it's trying to convey thematically. (Which is no surprise, as Paranoia Agent is a very flawed if interesting patchwork of different stories hinged around some key ideas of social responsibilities, nostalgia, revisionism, media and social gossip, etc... Not that I think Kon really cared for logical coherence in narratives, anyway...)

Or, as whiskeyii already put it:

whiskeyii wrote:
I'm more staggered that you're semi-invested in the work of someone who deals very heavily in meaning, symbolism, and metaphors.


Your approach to viewing it is akin to Ron Swanson's insistence on the lack of symbolism in Moby Dick. And I don't know how you would even watch something like Utena.
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DuelGundam2099



Joined: 07 Dec 2014
Posts: 533
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:47 am Reply with quote
Bonham wrote:
The most bizarre attitude to have, especially considering how Kon's works in general operate.

I know nothing about Kon other than he also did Tokyo Godfathers and I gave that movie a perfect score. I don't look at staff because that is usually irrelevant.
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Your approach to viewing it is akin to Ron Swanson's insistence on the lack of symbolism in Moby Dick.

Moby Dick did not have symbolism.
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I don't know how you would even watch something like Utena.

I did and it was easily one of the worst anime of all time, mainly because the production values were a joke. The movie was slightly better, but not by much.
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whiskeyii



Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 2242
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:51 pm Reply with quote
DuelGundam2099 wrote:

I know nothing about Kon other than he also did Tokyo Godfathers and I gave that movie a perfect score. I don't look at staff because that is usually irrelevant.

-snip-

I did and it [Utena] was easily one of the worst anime of all time, mainly because the production values were a joke. The movie was slightly better, but not by much.


DX As someone who loves Utena for its layered symbolism, that hurts.

But as you've doubtlessly figured out for yourself by now, Satoshi Kon as well as Kunihiko Ikuhara (the guy behind Utena, Penguindrum, and Yuri Kuma Arashi) are (or were, in Kon's case) directors who deal in lots and lots of metaphors. Tokyo Godfathers is probably Kon's most comprehensible work, but trust me, his other stuff leans much more heavily towards Paranoia Agent. Since that is very clearly not your thing, I'd steer clear of their works in the future in favor of more straightforward anime.
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DuelGundam2099



Joined: 07 Dec 2014
Posts: 533
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:01 pm Reply with quote
whiskeyii wrote:
I'd steer clear of their works in the future in favor of more straightforward anime.

I don't even know the other things he worked on and I'm not going to avoid name credits because of a bad series, it takes far more than that for me to "steer clear".

And yes, I have seen the other works of Utena guy, they.... got worse scores than PA did. Laughing
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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 7163
Location: Another Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:44 pm Reply with quote
So you're blind to symbolism and metaphor and you don't like symbolism-heavy stuff. That's fine with me, but the problem is that you treat your interpretation as the absolute truth regardless of how universally accepted other possibilities are.

Political cartoons must be incredibly surreal to you.
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DuelGundam2099



Joined: 07 Dec 2014
Posts: 533
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 7:49 pm Reply with quote
leafy wrote:
the problem is that you treat your interpretation as the absolute truth regardless of how universally accepted other possibilities are.

At no point did I state or imply this.
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Political cartoons must be incredibly surreal to you.

Political cartoons are representations of social grievances, those are supposed to have metaphors so they do not have the same standard as a television series or movie.
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Galap
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Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2354
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:19 pm Reply with quote
This discussion is going to be allowed to continue, but remember that it must be kept civil.

Duel, are you implying that TV series and movies are not supposed to contain metaphors? That seems like a pretty bizarre statement to me.

Also, I'm pretty surprised that you like Aquarion Logos so much, since that one is pretty full of odd metaphors and symbolism.
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Bonham



Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 419
Location: NYC
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:41 pm Reply with quote
DuelGundam2099 wrote:
I don't look at staff because that is usually irrelevant.

Moby Dick did not have symbolism.

Galap said to keep it civil, so I will, but I have to say you're either a funny troll, or else have developed some kind of weird contrarian streak that you're not fully conscious of. It's like the opposite of the film and lit students who make convoluted yet overly literal readings into the material... And then there's the whole angle of treating the author like God in allegorical readings, yet also thinking that the staff/crew is irrelevant to the product (wut)?

Quote:
I did and it was easily one of the worst anime of all time, mainly because the production values were a joke.

But, well, at least your opinions are definitely your own!

Galap wrote:
Duel, are you implying that TV series and movies are not supposed to contain metaphors? That seems like a pretty bizarre statement to me.

Also, I'm pretty surprised that you like Aquarion Logos so much, since that one is pretty full of odd metaphors and symbolism.

Well, he also really thinks highly of Evangelion, The Big O, RahXephon and Ergo Proxy, so my troll theory is still possible...

Or it could just be this.
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DuelGundam2099



Joined: 07 Dec 2014
Posts: 533
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 8:51 am Reply with quote
Leafy wrote:
you're either a funny troll, or else have developed some kind of weird contrarian streak that you're not fully conscious of.

I'm neither, I am a relativist:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativism
Quote:
yet also thinking that the staff/crew is irrelevant to the product (wut)?

I judge the work, not the people behind it. If I find out who made it that isn't going to sway my score. The same principle goes for actors: I don't know most of the people (if any) in any movie I watch, I don't even know what other roles they have done let alone notice similarities in said roles. Why would that even matter? It doesn't alter the overall experience. Take for example that Hercules movie that came out last year starring Dwane Johnson, the main villain was played by a guy who was known to play villain roles, but I didn't know nor did I care so why would an actor I am unfamiliar with sway the experience? Apparently critics cared too much for that. The movie was also made by the same guy that made the Rush Hour trilogy, my favorite X-Men movie, and the terrible Sky Line. They have nothing in common aside form being in a guy's filmography so it's rather pointless.
Galap wrote:
Duel, are you implying that TV series and movies are not supposed to contain metaphors? That seems like a pretty bizarre statement to me.

I will repeat myself: I don't see metaphors in fiction, I take things at face value. The author (or someone on staff) must state that there is any, otherwise I will always assume there is none.
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whiskeyii



Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 2242
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:32 am Reply with quote
DuelGundam2099 wrote:

I judge the work, not the people behind it. If I find out who made it that isn't going to sway my score.

-snip-

I will repeat myself: I don't see metaphors in fiction, I take things at face value. The author (or someone on staff) must state that there is any, otherwise I will always assume there is none.


Emphasis mine.

My issue here is that these two tend to be linked. Ikuhara has done many interviews stating what some things (though not nearly all things) in Utena and its movie mean. But if you don't care about the staff, how would you even know these interviews exist? You would only learn of them through an external force (like me bringing them up), or by delving into learning more about the show, or through dumb luck--but, given how much you dislike the show, would you even bother?

These views just seem opposed to one another.

Also, I'd like to bring up something you mentioned earlier:
Quote:

A tool would be more like chisels, brushes, hammers, pottery ovens, and the like, not references.

Are you saying that you don't view use of color, framing, or cinematography to be legitimate tools in a filmmaker's belt? Because those are the tools Gina was referring to, not tools for physical labor. I can't tell if you're being facetious here or sincere.
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DuelGundam2099



Joined: 07 Dec 2014
Posts: 533
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 7:39 pm Reply with quote
Whiskeyii wrote:
These views just seem opposed to one another.

Not really: People that work on something are humans that do human related things that usually have nothing to do with the work by itself. Interviews, commentaries, and the like give facts relating to the work.
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but, given how much you dislike the show, would you even bother?

Part of this has to do with the fact that everyone that informs me of this tends to act like a film snob or is from /a/. Given how I don't see the vast majority of things film snobs see and half the things /a/ says is incorrect I took it upon myself to believe that Iku *looks at name to spell it out* hara is just some guy a few anime fans took too seriously and a bunch of newbies that don't know any better followed along.

I said keep it civil. -Galap

Every time without fail, I get the same thing from Nanoha fans that keep spreading the meme that Nanoha and Fate are lesbians in Nanoha Strikers (sharing a bed and adopting a spoil of war doesn't amount to orientation, they look disinterested in each other); subtext is not confirmation or hard evidence. You can tell someone to dig all they want, but they aren't going to dig the way you want unless you lay out things for them. You know what makes this debate different? Someone *gasp* cited an official source!
Quote:
Are you saying that you don't view use of color, framing, or cinematography to be legitimate tools in a filmmaker's belt?

Color is a tool, framing and cinematography on the other hand merely positioning.
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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 7163
Location: Another Kingdom
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 8:10 pm Reply with quote
A tool is merely something a skilled craftsperson utilizes. It doesn't have to be physical. It can be conceptual too.

Here's what I got when I looked up "tool" in my dictionary:

tool |to͞ol|
noun
1 a device or implement, esp. one held in the hand, used to carry out a particular function: gardening tools.
• a thing used in an occupation or pursuit: computers are an essential tool | the ability to write clearly is a tool of the trade.
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