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Answerman - Why Don't More Anime Discs Come With Digital Downloads?


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Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 8:54 pm Reply with quote
I think there are two very simple reasons why combo-packs are still very much a thing. First and foremost is the simple fact that there are literally hundreds of millions of perfectly-functional DVD players out there, the majority of which aren't ever going to be replaced for Blu-ray players. You have everything from built-in players on TVs to older laptops (and even a lot of newer ones) to those little portable DVD players to older gaming consoles to built-in car players to...well, you get the idea. Even in our house, the family has a Blu-ray player for the main TV, and I have a BD-RW drive in the desktop I custom-built (honestly optical drives as a whole are getting to be a bit of a rarity among the enthusiast crowd), but beyond those we have at least 7 or 8 functional devices I can name off the top of my head that play DVDs. A BD-only release is locked out from playing on that myriad of devices, and while you're going to get the dedicated fans buying it, you're potentially cutting off a huge portion of your audience. Plus, as other people noted, if you have both in one package, you might just persuade a few more people to upgrade to BD players. Just about the only big Hollywood releases I can think of that are BD-only are either cheap re-releases that wind up in the $5 or under bin at stores, or else special editions like my big Lord of the Rings extended-edition set.

The second reason is that I seem to remember Justin mentioning that, these days, pressing DVDs costs just pennies per unit if you're doing it in any sort of large quantity. If you're already putting out an SKU for a movie or series, and it's that cheap to toss in an extra DVD copy, why not go ahead and do it? Hell, it might actually save distributors money over having to put an entirely separate DVD-only SKU. They all get shoved into a standard-sized case anyway, so it's not like you're losing any additional shelf space either.

leafy sea dragon wrote:
Something as easy as DRM-free download-to-own movies at maximum quality is just going to invite people everywhere to make copies and give them to everyone they know. It would be the absolute easiest set of conditions to make illegal copies of a movie or TV show, and so the largest amount of people will do it. It'd be the equivalent of a bank or jewelry store that not only has no security, but leaves every door open all night long, including the front doors. It practically invites thieves in (though there may be some who would hesitate because of how suspiciously open the place is). No matter how well-protected the place is, there will be a burglar capable of getting in, but having some amount of security, or even the threat thereof, will deter potential burglars from trying.

It's funny you should say that, because on the gaming side of things, GOG.com has been managed to create a successful business model out of selling completely DRM-free versions of games over the past several years. I'm sure there was a lot of resistance by publishers at first, but their success speaks for itself, and over time they've managed to even get the likes of EA and Activision to release back-catalog titles onto their service, along with any number of new releases by indie developers. Shockingly enough, customers tend to appreciate it when they're not treated like potential criminals, and if even the most DRM-saturated titles out there get cracked versions put up on torrent sites within a day of release, what good does punishing the people who legitimately buy games actually do?
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Zalis116
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:27 pm Reply with quote
Kalessin wrote:
Now, personally, I'm sick of getting DVDs. I just want the Blu-ray, and as nice as Funimation's LE editions with the boxes are, you generally onl need the box because they put both the DVDs and Blu-rays in there rather than just the Blu-rays. Otherwise, they'd just have the one case with two discs in it (at least for the single cour shows). So, while I like the box, it means that the shows are eating up more shelf space just because they insist on bundling the DVDs with the Blu-rays.

So, while I can understand why they do it, I'm also quite sick of it. I just want everything to be on Blu-ray and for DVDs to become as obsolete as VHS. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like that's going to happen any time soon, because too many folks simply don't care about video quality.
It would be nice in theory to completely move on from DVD. But as long as some companies are still going back and (re-)releasing shows from the early/mid-00s, I'd still rather have decently-encoded DVDs than often-shoddy upscales of SD digipaint titles. Heck, when it comes to caring about video quality, some of those BD upscales are actually worse than DVD, and the less said about BD digital upscales (as opposed to film rescans/remasters) of old analog masters, the better. Not to mention the other obstacles to BD in the Western anime market, like anti-reverse-importation measures delaying or precluding BD releases... apparently, some publishers have increasingly attempted to gimp Western releases by giving out TV broadcast masters, and I'd rather have a DVD release of the uncensored home video versions than Blu-Rays of the TV-censored versions. (Aside from cases like Nisekoi where the BDs were more censored than the broadcasts, anyway.)
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dragonrider_cody



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:29 pm Reply with quote
You could theoretically do SD-BD, like Discotek did with Samurai Pizza Cats. Of course, consumers have this idea that bluray must equal high definition. You also see the same type of complaints whenever a TV show or special that was shot on videotape comes out on DVD. There is only so much you can do to make video look good. If the masters are garbage, then you are often out of luck.
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Kalessin



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:36 am Reply with quote
dragonrider_cody wrote:
You could theoretically do SD-BD, like Discotek did with Samurai Pizza Cats. Of course, consumers have this idea that bluray must equal high definition. You also see the same type of complaints whenever a TV show or special that was shot on videotape comes out on DVD. There is only so much you can do to make video look good. If the masters are garbage, then you are often out of luck.


Yeah. There's no technical reason why it would ever be better to release something on DVD. You can literally put the same video on a Blu-ray that you can on a DVD (though that would be pretty pointless). And simply deinterlacing the SD video with professional software rather than having the DVD/Blu-ray player do it and putting that on the Blu-ray would be a huge improvement over interlaced DVDs IMHO - even if they made no improvements whatsoever. And upscaling for the Blu-ray is just pointless as far as I can tell, because that's trivial for the player to do correctly. But folks expect HD on a Blu-ray, so they made it HD even it's not really HD.

Personally, I'd to see them make them put the video on Blu-ray with the highest quality that they can, and if it's not 1080p, then it's not 1080p. Oh well. That sucks, but if they don't have it, they don't have it. But they can at least get rid of that horrible interlacing - especially when most folks don't have CRTs anymore, and no one with an HD TV or monitor is going to have an interlaced display. So, stuff like 1080i is a total abomination IMHO, but folks keep releasing stuff that way. Too often it seems like the folks producing this stuff either don't care about video quality, don't know how to do it right, and/or they purposefully do it wrong because of what they think the buyers expect. Too often, it seems like I got really lucky every time that I get release that actually, truly looks good - especially with anime. I don't even want to think about how many anime Blu-ray releases I have with banding on them...
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leafy sea dragon



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 2:13 am Reply with quote
Top Gun wrote:
I think there are two very simple reasons why combo-packs are still very much a thing. First and foremost is the simple fact that there are literally hundreds of millions of perfectly-functional DVD players out there, the majority of which aren't ever going to be replaced for Blu-ray players. You have everything from built-in players on TVs to older laptops (and even a lot of newer ones) to those little portable DVD players to older gaming consoles to built-in car players to...well, you get the idea. Even in our house, the family has a Blu-ray player for the main TV, and I have a BD-RW drive in the desktop I custom-built (honestly optical drives as a whole are getting to be a bit of a rarity among the enthusiast crowd), but beyond those we have at least 7 or 8 functional devices I can name off the top of my head that play DVDs. A BD-only release is locked out from playing on that myriad of devices, and while you're going to get the dedicated fans buying it, you're potentially cutting off a huge portion of your audience. Plus, as other people noted, if you have both in one package, you might just persuade a few more people to upgrade to BD players. Just about the only big Hollywood releases I can think of that are BD-only are either cheap re-releases that wind up in the $5 or under bin at stores, or else special editions like my big Lord of the Rings extended-edition set.

The second reason is that I seem to remember Justin mentioning that, these days, pressing DVDs costs just pennies per unit if you're doing it in any sort of large quantity. If you're already putting out an SKU for a movie or series, and it's that cheap to toss in an extra DVD copy, why not go ahead and do it? Hell, it might actually save distributors money over having to put an entirely separate DVD-only SKU. They all get shoved into a standard-sized case anyway, so it's not like you're losing any additional shelf space either.


Wow, it really is just pennies? I can see why they'd just include them with the Blu-Rays then. You give your customers more (even if it's a duplicate of the other thing they just bought) without increasing the price they pay for it.

As for DVD prevalence, that's definitely a thing, though I'd imagine that for households without Blu-Ray players, they can just get the DVD-only release. I still see those sold everywhere, albeit always with inferior artwork. (The DVD-only release of Zootopia has only Nick and Judy on the cover, for instance, but the DVD and Blu-Ray combo release has most of the main and supporting cast on it.)

Top Gun wrote:
It's funny you should say that, because on the gaming side of things, GOG.com has been managed to create a successful business model out of selling completely DRM-free versions of games over the past several years. I'm sure there was a lot of resistance by publishers at first, but their success speaks for itself, and over time they've managed to even get the likes of EA and Activision to release back-catalog titles onto their service, along with any number of new releases by indie developers. Shockingly enough, customers tend to appreciate it when they're not treated like potential criminals, and if even the most DRM-saturated titles out there get cracked versions put up on torrent sites within a day of release, what good does punishing the people who legitimately buy games actually do?


I've heard about GOG having DRM-free stuff, but I didn't know it was to that extent. I always figured computer gaming would be the medium that's most vulnerable to piracy, and maybe the games on GOG do get pirated a lot. If these companies can turn a profit even like that, then that's quite interesting, and a result I would not have expected.

The way I've always seen it, I always figured the people who go out of their way to buy things legit all the time are a minority. But maybe that's because my experiences have been tainted with working in retail, where I'd constantly see people shoplift or carelessly handle things and break them and there's nothing I can do about it, and maybe because my family comes from a country that's ground zero for all sorts of bootlegs and counterfeits to where some of my family members and their friends cannot comprehend why anyone would buy everything legit if cheaper or free alternatives exist (which they'd equate to "sucker").
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Top Gun



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 3:30 am Reply with quote
The funny thing is that I can't remember ever actually using one of the DVD copies from a combo pack, whether for a mainstream movie or an anime series, but I still like knowing they're there, and I definitely prefer FUNi's approach to frequently offering them over Sentai's almost complete lack of them. I know it's probably just a placebo effect, but even with my setup there are some situations where it'd still make sense. Since the only Blu-ray player in my room is the drive in my PC, to watch BDs I have to be either sitting up in my (really uncomfortable) office chair, or else sprawled awkwardly across the foot of my bed. (Sidenote: TN displays are great for high refresh rates, not so much for viewing angles.) But if I chose to use the DVD option, I could lay comfortably in bed and use my TV at a natural angle. I know I'm probably not the only one who has setup issues like this, so it's good to have the option even if I don't usually go to it.

Getting back to the original question and digital downloads, I know it'll be a cold day in hell before Japanese production committees would ever agree to DRM-free download options, but I really wish there was at least something out there at the level of Steam, where you could download protected files locally and have a generally trustworthy and reliable framework to view them on. (Hell, Steam itself has started adding movies, so maybe someday...) I have redeemed the few movies I've purchased with Ultraviolet codes, but the streaming-only option and awkward multiple-login system means that I've never bothered using the digital copies through them, and I'm not sure that I ever will.
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Kalessin



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 5:22 am Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:
I've heard about GOG having DRM-free stuff, but I didn't know it was to that extent. I always figured computer gaming would be the medium that's most vulnerable to piracy, and maybe the games on GOG do get pirated a lot. If these companies can turn a profit even like that, then that's quite interesting, and a result I would not have expected.


Pirating actually often helps games make money. Sure, tons of folks pirate the game and never pay for it like they're supposed to, ripping off the game developers in the process. But some portion of the folks who pirate a game then buy it (presumably, they didn't want to pay for it sight unseen, but after having played it and liked it decided that they would pay for it), and even if the majority of the folks who pirate it never pay for it, it increases the popularity of the game, making it so that more folks who do pay for the games that they play hear about the game and how great it is and decide to buy it.

You get a similar effect with pirated music too. Some of the folks who buy the most music have a ton of pirated stuff as well. By pirating it, they came into contact with more music and artists, finding more stuff that they were willing to pay for. So, while they may not pay for all of the music that they listen to like they're supposed to, they do end up paying for more music than they would have had they not pirated any in the first place.

Similarly, on the anime front, historically, fansubs have helped make shows popular before they ever got a domestic release in the US making it so that more people were aware of them when they came out and bought them.

It's hard to know how often pirating has ultimately harmed a product and how often it's ultimately helped, but as I understand it, there's clear evidence that it often helps. So, at least some of the time, companies would actually do better financially by not worrying about piracy at all. But they usually don't believe that or have to bend to the whims of folks who don't believe it (as would easily happen with a US company licensing an anime, since the Japanese company that they're licensing from likely won't allow DRM-free content even if the US company wants to do it and thinks that it will improve their sales). To some extent, at least, the music industry seems to have gotten over it, but other industries have been slow to follow. It's great to see that GoG has been able to make it work for the gaming industry as well as they have, particularly since the gaming industry tends to be particularly bad about DRM historically.
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leafy sea dragon



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:00 am Reply with quote
Didn't the music industry almost collapse because of music piracy, and it surviving only because of a la carte music purchases like iTunes?

Even then, songs rarely reach the sales numbers they were when CDs were the dominant means of listening to music.
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Kalessin



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 11:18 am Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:
Didn't the music industry almost collapse because of music piracy, and it surviving only because of a la carte music purchases like iTunes?

Even then, songs rarely reach the sales numbers they were when CDs were the dominant means of listening to music.


I don't think that there's any question that piracy has both helped and harmed the music industry, but I don't know how well it has ultimately balanced. And a lot of the problems that the music industry has had was because consumers didn't want to function the way that the music industry wanted them to. However, it's my understanding that music industry is actually doing very well. They don't sell as many CDs, but they make their money in other ways (concerts in particular are huge money makers), and it's not like digital music sales are doing poorly - though with the a la carte model, they likely do get less per song in general, because folks don't buy the songs that they don't want. And the vast majority of folks who would have pirated music previously without paying now use services like pandora or spotify which do result in at least some money going to the folks who make the music as opposed to the nothing that they would have gotten before. The industry has shifted, and it may need to shift more (e.g. artists really don't get much via spotify), but it's still doing well.

By no means do I promote piracy. I definitely think that consumers should be paying the creators of the stuff they consume. But it's also the case that piracy tends to often help instead of harm, and a lot of the problems are caused by businesses that refuse to adjust their business models to changes in technology. So, it's a very complicated issue, and the folks making the content generally do better by adjusting how they function in order to take advantage of how their consumers function rather than constantly trying to prevent them from infringing on their copyrights and going after them when the do.
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leafy sea dragon



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:52 am Reply with quote
Kalessin wrote:
I don't think that there's any question that piracy has both helped and harmed the music industry, but I don't know how well it has ultimately balanced. And a lot of the problems that the music industry has had was because consumers didn't want to function the way that the music industry wanted them to. However, it's my understanding that music industry is actually doing very well. They don't sell as many CDs, but they make their money in other ways (concerts in particular are huge money makers), and it's not like digital music sales are doing poorly - though with the a la carte model, they likely do get less per song in general, because folks don't buy the songs that they don't want. And the vast majority of folks who would have pirated music previously without paying now use services like pandora or spotify which do result in at least some money going to the folks who make the music as opposed to the nothing that they would have gotten before. The industry has shifted, and it may need to shift more (e.g. artists really don't get much via spotify), but it's still doing well.

By no means do I promote piracy. I definitely think that consumers should be paying the creators of the stuff they consume. But it's also the case that piracy tends to often help instead of harm, and a lot of the problems are caused by businesses that refuse to adjust their business models to changes in technology. So, it's a very complicated issue, and the folks making the content generally do better by adjusting how they function in order to take advantage of how their consumers function rather than constantly trying to prevent them from infringing on their copyrights and going after them when the do.


I have to say, you have a way more trusting nature than I do.

I always just assume that the majority of people who pirate media do so because it means they can consume it for free and that the people who will go on to buy the object are a minority, though how much of a minority they are varies from project to project. (For instance, something aimed at kids would likely have a way higher amount of consumers who pirate the thing and never pay a cent afterwards due to a combination of children not having much money and because children are less likely to understand the importance and role of money.) I base this on the people I've known who pirate things (very few of them will spend money on whatever they pirate, because their interests lie only as far as them getting to consume the media for as low a price as possible, nothing more) and the people online who freely admit to torrenting, obtaining bootlegs, watching everything through YouTube, or visiting scanlation sites without any further interests. And in one case, when I was in college, there was someone who was running a torrenting hub from within the building where I stayed, and did so unrepentantly, ignoring any warnings until he was expelled. He slowed our Internet down to a crawl, but he clearly didn't care.

Then there is the issue of how many people who consume things for free would have actually consumed it if no free alternatives are available--in other words, how many of these people who consume pirated material who won't ever pay any money (or only pay for bootlegs that cost far less than the real deal) are truly part of the market. That's a complicated and complex issue, considering said people I've known who freely pirate everything they can would just simply move to the next thing if something isn't available. One can argue that these people aren't really part of any entertainment market. There are definitely people who would have otherwise paid for the product if unofficial venues didn't exist, however. That's the problem that I'm talking about. It can't ever be truly measured, I think, but I estimate it to be much bigger than you do, that's for sure. Anyone who unknowingly buys a bootleg, especially if the bootleggers have the audacity to price their stuff comparably to the official stuff, is part of this group though.

(I have some family members who will go out of their way to avoid anything official, by the way, under the idea that anything official will cost more. I have an aunt who will even avoid licensed practitioners for stuff like medicine and repairs because she has always found an unlicensed person who will charge less.)
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Kalessin



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 7:14 pm Reply with quote
It's a complicated issue. There's definitely evidence that piracy helps to promote a product and increase its sales, but it's also clear that plenty of folks will avoid paying if they can regardless of how moral it is. Efforts at preventing piracy do prevent some piracy, but it's mostly just the most casual piracy, and it frequently just serves to tick off the folks who actually pay for a product. So, arguably, you're better off just letting folks pirate the product (since a large portion of them are going to anyway), thus saving whatever money you would have spent on trying to prevent the piracy and potentially making more money thanks to the additional exposure that your product gets by having so many more people use it (even if it's not legally), and potentially making more money thanks to the good will that you gain by not screwing over the fans who pay (especially when other companies do screw them over). By no means is the situation clear, but given how prevalent piracy is regardless, there's a pretty strong argument that not fighting it will be more economical (though there's obviously no guarantee that it actually will be).

However, in many cases, the solution that companies seem to be going for is streaming or other online services that give you access to a lot of content without actually letting you own it or keep it. So, how accessible the content is makes piracy less of a gain (and thus less likely to happen), and the ads attempt to make up for the revenue lost by not selling it all piece by piece like they would have done historically. So, companies retain greater control over their content and reduce piracy at the same time, though they obviously don't kill it off, and the economic model is different enough from disc sales that I'm not sure how clear it is which is more profitable.

In any case, piracy is a very complicated topic, and there are good arguments on both sides. Personally, I do think that in general, we'd be better off if companies worried about it less, but it's also true that far too many folks will jump at the chance to get something for free even if it's not legal and could ultimately lead to that content no longer being produced if the profits are too low.
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leafy sea dragon



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:55 am Reply with quote
Heh, that was an interesting perspective. I'll just say that you are way more optimistic about what people would do with no piracy protection than I am (which is not a bad thing, and I would like to see some more companies try it, though I'm sure some companies would be more hurt by it than others).

I definitely do not like the whole schtick where you're paying to use rather than paying to own, however. I've seen both with digital copies of movies on home video, and it just bugs me that when it's pay-to-use, that means one of your copies will suddenly become unusable. I am the sort of person who consumes media long after they've come out, and anything that prevents me from consuming it 10 or 15 years later is something that annoys me.
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