Forum - View topicSome things on anime couples.
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Crisha
Moderator
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I haven't completely read Naruto or Bleach for several reasons (I tend to grow tired of anything long-running, they weren't focused on the characters that I thought were the most interesting, there were too many fights, etc), but I did get invested enough to get involved in the fandom and read summaries on canon up until the end. I read the manga through all of the Chunin exam arc in Naruto and all of the Soul Society arc in Bleach, and there were certain characters I became attached to. In Naruto it was Sakura (and later on Hinata), and in Bleach it was Rukia. I knew I wasn't going to get the focus and development on characters that I wanted in the canon (other than some moments here and there), so I stuck to the fandom mostly.
My favorite couples at the time were reflected by the arcs I saw in both series. I literally started both series part-way in (Chunin exams and Soul Society arcs), because those were the ones recommended to me by (or that I watched with) my friends. I ended up reading summaries on what happened earlier, but I wasn't interested enough in reading through all of those earlier chapters. So, for me, my main ships at the time were Sakura x Lee and Temari x Shikamaru in Naruto and Rukia x Renji, Hinamori x Hitsugaya, Hisana x Byakuya, Ran x Gin, and Nanao x Shunsui in Bleach. Now, at the time I got involved with both series, fanfiction.net did not yet have a way to sort by characters or couples, so I was stuck searching page by page for the characters and couples I wanted, which ended up making me resent certain couples, specifically within the Naruto fandom. For Bleach, my preferred couples were popular enough that I could find them with enough frequency. Naruto, however... I shit you not, I'd say that about 95% of the fanfiction I came across for Naruto was either BL slash or these four couples "NaruHina, SasuSaku, ShikaIno, NejiTen." Seriously, those four couples were often listed together in the story summaries. And having to see that repetition page after page after page (and barely finding any stories for the couples I was interested in) began to seriously tick me off to the point that I really disliked all those couples just on principle. I had other reasons to dislike those couples, as well. Two of them (SasuSaku and ShikaIno) directly conflicted with my couples of interest. I didn't like what I saw of Sasuke in the series, and I disliked Sakura's immature obsession for him, and I wanted to see her outgrow that crush (which I felt was holding her back). Also, three of those four couples (SasuSaku, ShikaIno, NejiTen) are basically just pairing up the girl with the best-looking guy on her team, and I disliked the shallow implications of that. Anyways, the point is that due to my experiences in fandom I have never shipped those four couples in Naruto. Now, since those initial times, I have shipped many ships in Naruto (I'll include a list at the end of my post*). Of the ones I most liked, I felt like Sakura and Naruto and Shikamaru and Temari had the best shot at becoming canon (and, hey, at least I got 50%). I don't feel like Kishimoto is great at developing his couples though, even the ones he made canon. He certainly wasn't awful, but not great. It's a shounen manga that mainly focuses on developing its main male characters, so I really wasn't expecting much focus on the romance or female characters, which is largely why I stuck with fandom. He had some moments of developing Sakura's and Hinata's characters and their relationship with Naruto, enough that I could see either potentially ending up with Naruto, but his writing wasn't enough to sell me on either couple. Getting me to support Sakura/Naruto largely came from fandom. However, from the few scenes I saw I still thought it was more likely that Naruto and Hinata were going to become canon (between the two love confessions, Hinata's felt more genuine). Naruto and Hinata ending up together didn't really bother me much; however, Sasuke and Sakura still does. It feels like sticking with the status quo and reverting back to the unhealthy relationship dynamics at the beginning. F*** that noise. Now, as for Bleach, my ships haven't changed. However, I saw even less potential for them than I did for my ships in Naruto, largely because Kubo focused even less on romance. I think Renji and Rukia had the best chance, largely due to Renji's feelings. I felt that some scenes made Renji's feelings for Rukia pretty obvious, but Rukia and Ichigo were such wild cards that I didn't know where the chips were going to land. It was Renji's and Rukia's previous history and Renji's emotional responses to Rukia in the Soul Society arc that largely sold me on them as a couple in the first place. Later scenes of them fighting together and sharing banter only sold me more. In my personal opinion, both Rukia and Ichigo felt like they were written as asexual characters. Their relationships with everyone mostly felt platonic. It was Renji and Orihime who canonically had romantic interests in the two, so having the series end the way it did honestly doesn't surprise me. I would have been equally unsurprised if there were no confirmed relationships at the end. I could have also seen Rukia and Ichigo end up together since they did have some good friendly chemistry and it would have been conventional to have the main hero end up with the main heroine. I still largely see their relationships as platonic though. Overall, it was a toss-up for me up until the last few chapters of the manga. Obviously, I'm pleased with the results, but I still don't feel that Kubo did a great job with developing the romances. *Here's a list of Naruto couples I have read stories for (the ones in bold are what I consider my OTPs): Sakura/Naruto, Sakura/Lee, Sakura/Kakashi, Sakura/Itachi, Sakura/Shikamaru, Sakura/Ino, Sakura/Hinata, Sakura/Gaara, Sakura/Deidara, Hinata/Neji, Hinata/Shino, Hinata/Kiba, Hinata/Sasuke, Temari/Shikamaru, Tenten/Lee, Tenten/Kankurou, Tenten/Shino, Ino/Chouji, Ino/Sai, Ino/Sasuke, Rin/Obito, Kushina/Minato, Tsunade/Jiraiya, Naruto/Sasuke, Kiba/Shino, Shikamaru/Chouji, Kankurou/Gaara (yes, I know). |
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Polycell
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Chiibi
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This can be left up to viewer interpretation, but it seems that the general opinion is that spoiler[the author broke up a brother and sister because he was not allowed to publish it otherwise...but they will continue their relationship secretly in his final word.] *makes disgusted face* Yay....? I agree with you about Manami (I was personally with the Kuroneko fans) but ANYONE would have been a better girl than Kirino. A-n-y-o-n-e. Lol |
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louis6578
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Honestly, I can totally understand Oreimo's ending being "what it was about all along" (even though the show ended up being an incredibly interesting look at otakuism in Japan at first), but I think they should have done things way differently. For starters, Kuroneko and Kyousuke should never have been a couple if they were going to break up like that. I mean, they were adorable and perfect together (especially since Kuroneko is my waifu out of all anime ever) but the reason behind them breaking up was so forced. It was like you could see the author's hand on the screen. Kuroneko did what she did so that any supporters of the ending/anyone who thinks Kirino is best girl, can say "Well, Kuroneko broke up with him, so it's her own fault that Kyousuke got with Kirino." Honestly, that was pretty crappy writing. I'm not into romance that much in general (though shoujo anime can be pretty damn good at having me make exceptions) but Kuroneko breaking up with him was as transparent as Lelouch causing the Euphinator incident. The writers wanted to get from point A (Kyousuke playing hentai games and dating Kuroneko) to point B (Kyousuke going out with his sister) but had no idea how to get there without idiotic, nonsense decisions by the characters.
It's a shame, because not counting Kuroneko's forced breakup and the fallout from it, all of Oreimo was great until the season 2 OVAs. It's a lighthearted version of Welcome to the NHK and a reverse-Watamote at the same time. It's a shame that the writers dropped the ball. Honestly, it was one of the few slice of life shows that managed to remain completely interesting from start to finish without becoming unrealistic. And lets give Re:Zero some credit. Subaru, at the very least, wasn't dating Rem when he decided to get with Emilia (though he did basically ask her to elope with him before rejecting her, which is a little scummy). |
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Cam0
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I personally had no issues (Oreimo spoilers) spoiler[with the incest part about that pairing. What sucked was that most of the show Kyousuke's feelings seemed more like the brotherly kind. The show was about Kyousuke rebuilding his relationship with Kirino. The romantic part felt shoehorned in as it kind of happened at the last minute. And then they didn't even go all the way. Kyousuke dumped all those girls just to pretend to be in a relationship with Kirino for a while. Kyousuke dun goofed.]
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louis6578
Posts: 1861 |
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^^^^^^ This a thousand times. Kyousuke suddenly being a siscon weirdo felt wrong. Also, remember when Ayase thought anime/manga/hentai/video games made people into creeps and we're supposed to disagree with her? Um... Kyousuke entirely admits that his romantic interest in his sister was brought about by his introduction to hentai media. That's... not very good writing. I mean, it's not played for comedy or anything. I mean, my dislike of Kirino aside (even if she were adopted or something, I'd still dislike her for being an abusive tsundere without any good reason behind it), this could have been done well if the series were about it. But it's not. It feels like Future Diary-level "plot twists" rather than a natural, built-up to development. |
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Chiibi
Posts: 4828 |
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I agree with you both quite strongly: the writing was the biggest problem.
Add onto that Incest normally grosses me out a lot....but I make exceptions for cousins (not really incest in Japan) and twins. (There is just something about them lol)
Coming from a girl who likes and defends the tsundere archetype: Kirino was a bitch. Almost insufferable. Her otaku streak saved her from me outright hating her...but I did dislike her most of the show. Umaru-chan is like Oreimo done right. I look forward to seeing more of it. |
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louis6578
Posts: 1861 |
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I like Tsunderes when they're done right. Kirino isn't because she has no relatability in her actions and her "dere" side is too infrequent. It's less like shedding the ice off a person with a lot of defense mechanisms and more like dealing with someone with severe bi-polar disorder.
Makise Kurisu is a good tsundere because she's never physically abusive and mostly sticks to being sarcastic and snarky. Asuka is an amazing tsundere because the show never treats her behavior like it's okay "because she's a girl" and her reason for acting out is surprisingly believable and easy to relate to for a lot of people. Kirino? Um... being really popular and well-liked is just too much for her, I guess? Not to mention that every other character is more appealing than her. Ayase's violent tendencies are actually hilarious, not to mention that Kyousuke provokes her intentionally. Saori is adorable as hell. Manami is... eh. Harmless enough. Probably the most generic of the harem. Kuroneko is the most perfect little princess in all of existence and I want her to be my wife forever and have my children. Kirino? Awful. And every time they tried to make me care about her, I couldn't. Every time Kyousuke was supposed to be worried or miss her when she was going away, I was happy as hell. Is it any surprise that I think the absolute peak of the series is the season 1 OVAs where Kuroneko essentially replaces Kirino for a while and Kirino isn't seen until the final episode? |
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Snomaster1
 SubscriberPosts: 2796 |
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I've just been read the responses I've got with my post and I'm pretty happy with them. I saw "Oreimo" thrown in there. To me,the less said about that coupling,the better,based on what I've heard about it. Another word I've heard thrown around here was tsundere. The most famous non-anime version of that character was Glenn Close's character in "Fatal Attraction." Another American version of the tsundere was Giffany from the TV series "Gravity Falls." I go into a lot more detail on the episode she starred in in the Community section if any of you are lucky enough to be subscribers. Just go there and read it and if you want,do some comments there. That'll make me happy.
All in all,I'm very pleased with the comments I've seen and I hope to see more here in the future. |
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Chiibi
Posts: 4828 |
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Pfff the BEST non-anime tsundere is Helga Pataki from Hey Arnold! 
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getchman
Space Cowboy Posts: 9120 Location: Bedford, NH |
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i miss that show
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23754 |
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@ Snomaster1 - actually, the Glenn Close character in Fatal Attraction is closer to a yandere than a tsundere. I found this explanation of tsundere online:
The Glenn Close character starts off "lovey dovey" and then becomes ... not. That's the reverse of a tsundere. Check out this online description of a yandere:
That fits the description of the Glenn Close character better, imo. @ louis6578 - I have to agree - Kuroneko is the ultimate waifu. |
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Chiibi
Posts: 4828 |
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U KNOW IT'S COMING BACK RIGHT? I haven't seen Fatal Attraction so the only Glenn Close popping into my mind is Cruella De Ville....what a crazy old hag.....
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getchman
Space Cowboy Posts: 9120 Location: Bedford, NH |
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I did not know that. that is fantastic news |
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Gatherum
 Posts: 773 Location: Aurora CO |
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When I read that disclaimer at the top, I thought this was going to be about something like gender roles, or negative stereotypes, or something else of actual controversy as depicted in anime. But nah--it's about shipping. I'm not trying to trivialize the topic or anything; it's just kind of anticlimactic.
In any case, your complaints about the shipments in Naruto and Bleach are founded, but to be honest, shōnen properties very seldom feature a well-developed love story, especially when it surrounds the main protagonist. Shōnen leads are often depicted as very oblivious, platonic characters, whether they be Goku, Luffy, Naruto, or who else. If they do exhibit an attraction to anyone, it is usually a relatively brief, childhood fantasy at best, and is is completely tossed aside for the rest of the story until someone remembers and hastily checks the block. With that foremost in mind, I would argue that none of the shipments in any of these franchises are terribly valid, even in canon. Look at Goku and Chi Chi: The relationship is almost completely dysfunctional and serves entirely as a excuse for Goku to have children to pass on his martial arts experience (not that Toriyama knows how to take this anywhere meaningful, since he seems wholly disinterested in allowing for Goku and Vegeta to truly pass the torch). Look at Naruto and Hinata: Naruto's confession was a very awkward, "I guess I kinda love you too," pulled directly out of his ass. NaruSaku shippers would wholeheartedly agree, but unfortunately for them, the ground upon which their own ideal shipment stands is even softer. The two are, and always were, platonic friends and teammates, and the closest we ever came to any absolution was a fake-as-fudge confession out of Sakura in a very sloppy and vain attempt to coerce him into giving up the chase for his own safety. The argument that Naruto "deserves" to have her because he pined so hard for her early on is not only complete bollocks, but indicative of a deep-seated and thinly-veiled sexist perspective. Unfortunately, I cannot even argue that Hinata, Sakura, or most of the other female characters in that entire series are strong characters who stand on their own because they were essentially written to be the very sideline-camping trophies who pander to such an objectifying perspective in the first place. Of the two, Hinata was an altogether better choice, but still arbitrary, considering Naruto's personality and priorities. Even after their marriage, Naruto shows a consistent inability to pay due attention to his wife and children and is essentially another Goku with more excuses. Ironically, the SasuSaku pairing is the most sensible of the bunch, but not for romantic reasons. Sasuke couldn't be more disinterested in who his wife and child truly are; he's really just out to restore his clan, as he stated in the very beginning. Sakura just happened to be the one to provide a suitable womb. Boom. Sarada. Mission accomplished. Time to go out and do the nomad thing because reasons. In short, all of these pairings, regardless of which side you're on, are completely meaningless. They were shoehorned in to reinforce the generational themes of the story, but do such a poor job that they damn near trivialize that theme. |
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