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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 23668
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 6:16 pm Reply with quote
@ Aylinn - don't misunderstand me. Just because I recognize that anime doesn't often offer up truly multi-dimensional characters, doesn't mean that within the confines of what it does offer, there can't be better and worse examples. Of course, having a character who never learns from his or her mistakes is bad writing. Or having a character who acts a certain way because the plot demands it as opposed to doing something that comes organically. I'm just talking about the times when somebody references "one-dimensional characters", does a little hand wave and leaves it at that. And I don't mean to pick on louis6578 because I see this kind of thing all the time.
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louis6578



Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 1857
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 7:07 pm Reply with quote
So, let me put it this way. The way I see it, the entire cast of Outlaw Star is full of archetypes. None of them are original characters. However, I believe that in Cowboy Bebop, the only pure archetypal character who is nothing beyond their initial impressions is Edward. The difference between Gene and Spike is the difference between a standard archetype and a character, to me anyway.
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Jose Cruz



Joined: 20 Nov 2012
Posts: 1767
Location: South America
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 8:27 pm Reply with quote
Zin5ki wrote:
Jose Cruz wrote:
Satoshi Kon's films - they are cool but nothing really impressive in terms of cinema.

Out of interest, let us say that something like Millennium Actress or Magnetic Rose could be changed to your liking. Would it have been within the ambit of their basic premises for them to have been made into something impressive, or would you say otherwise?


I think that if Miyazaki or Takahata directed the same idea it would have been better.

Miyazaki's films are incredible not because of their script or ideas but because of the quality of the direction/execution. Kiki's Delivery Service, for example, could be a mediocre slice of life story in the hands of anybody else but Miyazaki turned that concept into a masterpiece of cinema. Kon's work does not approach the quality attained in works of Miyazaki or Takahata. I also think Makoto Shinkai, Mamoru Oshii and Hideaki Anno are significantly better in terms of quality of execution although still below Miyazaki.

Blood- wrote:
@ Aylinn - don't misunderstand me. Just because I recognize that anime doesn't often offer up truly multi-dimensional characters, doesn't mean that within the confines of what it does offer, there can't be better and worse examples. Of course, having a character who never learns from his or her mistakes is bad writing. Or having a character who acts a certain way because the plot demands it as opposed to doing something that comes organically. I'm just talking about the times when somebody references "one-dimensional characters", does a little hand wave and leaves it at that. And I don't mean to pick on louis6578 because I see this kind of thing all the time.


I usually read manga if I want complexity in terms of writing. There are like 100 times the number of masterpieces of writing in manga versus anime.

While anime I watch these days consists of cuteness, fanservice and violence.
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louis6578



Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 1857
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:23 am Reply with quote
My unpopular opinion? Sailor Moon is garbage!

Okay, not the show, but Usagi Tsukino is, in the 1992 anime adaptation, an annoying archetype of whiny little girl. And you know what? The fact that she does go through development makes it worse! She starts off as a whiny little girl and develops into a hero who accepts the responsibility thrust upon her, putting her selfishness aside for the greater good. Great development. Character arc over.

At the start of the next arc, however? She goes back to being a whiny little girl and essentially goes through the exact character arc. The series is 200+ episodes long, and it owes that length to Usagi's inability to remain consistent. I've never read the manga, but I do hear that Anime!Usagi is the problem while Manga!Usagi is a fairly tolerable character by comparison.

Maybe I'm just spoiled because my other experiences with Magical Girls (aside from parodies like Fate/Kaleid Liner) include Revolutionary Girl Utena, Madoka Magica, and Princess Tutu. All of which feature clear character development and a protagonist who starts off better than Usagi ends. Especially Duck from Princess Tutu! Her character development never ceases to make me smile.

Another issue with Sailor Moon is the fact that they ALWAYS seem to cram a monster fight into every episode, even if a character-driven episode about the girls growing on each other or going through their own melodramatic life problems would be more appropriate. These monster fights are pretty generic too. They all end the exact same way. The girls transform. The girls get beat up a little bit. An innocent bystander that they've spent the episode with is involved. The girls get angry and win. It's a formula that's been done to death, and all the other magical girl anime I've mentioned (well, Tutu and Utena anyway, since Madoka isn't that type of show) have done it FAR better.
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Chiibi



Joined: 19 Dec 2011
Posts: 4828
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:23 pm Reply with quote
I've always loved Usagi, personally but it's easy to see why other people don't so much. Anime hyper

A lot of her appeal is that she is so "real". She acts like a real teenaged girl acts. This is pretty much the same reason people hate (and love) Shinji Ikari from EVA.

Real teenagers.

The other girls around Usagi are more mature.....almost TOO mature which just makes her look really immature by comparison. Like AMI? Who the f*ck acts like Ami? Show me a fourteen-year-old girl who acts like Ami....she's a bloody profession-obsessed college student in a teenager's body. lol

Just my personal story but when I was Usagi's age, I just wanted to goof off and have fun doing my own thing; I hated school and responsibility so so very much and I was also a total crybaby, afraid of everything and very childish. Anime hyper So she was just so easy to identify with. The only thing we didn't have in common was eating a lot. Anime hyper
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louis6578



Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 1857
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:52 pm Reply with quote
Chiibi wrote:
I've always loved Usagi, personally but it's easy to see why other people don't so much. Anime hyper

A lot of her appeal is that she is so "real". She acts like a real teenaged girl acts. This is pretty much the same reason people hate (and love) Shinji Ikari from EVA.

Real teenagers.

The other girls around Usagi are more mature.....almost TOO mature which just makes her look really immature by comparison. Like AMI? Who the f*ck acts like Ami? Show me a fourteen-year-old girl who acts like Ami....she's a bloody profession-obsessed college student in a teenager's body. lol

Just my personal story but when I was Usagi's age, I just wanted to goof off and have fun doing my own thing; I hated school and responsibility so so very much and I was also a total crybaby, afraid of everything and very childish. Anime hyper So she was just so easy to identify with. The only thing we didn't have in common was eating a lot. Anime hyper


I totally understand that, and I think that with the minimal amount of changes, it could work for me. My only issue is that her character development from whiny, dependent girl who doesn't like the responsibility she has, to hero of justice constantly resets at the beginning of the next arc. Shinji's acts of bravery seem more like he's fighting through his fear than anything, so it's okay if he reverts a few times. Usagi on the other hand seems to be fighting with her other personalities half the time. Anime hyper It doesn't help that the other girls are marginally more interesting to me.

I feel like Usagi's archetype has been done better since, but maybe if Sailor Moon was my first Magical Girl anime, or even my first Shoujo anime, I would be more forgiving. Heck, maybe if it was half its length.
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Chiibi



Joined: 19 Dec 2011
Posts: 4828
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 3:37 pm Reply with quote
louis6578 wrote:
maybe if Sailor Moon was my first Magical Girl anime, or even my first Shoujo anime, I would be more forgiving.


It was mine. Anime hyper

I agree, it's annoying that the directors feel Usagi's growth has to be reset for each arc...but if I compare her from the beginning to how she is during the final season, there's a definite change for the better.

It feels that a lot of Usagi's worst moments are played "for the sake of lulz" and that kind of makes me angry. Flanderizing a character like that isn't funny, dammit. Twisted Evil
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louis6578



Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 1857
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 3:44 pm Reply with quote
I personally think that Duck/Ahiru from Princess Tutu fixes all my complaints about Usagi. Hell, a lot of Princess Tutu feels like Sailor Moon but better. Especially when I compare Mamoru to Fakir or Rue to any of the Sailor Moon villains turned good.
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Chiibi



Joined: 19 Dec 2011
Posts: 4828
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:42 pm Reply with quote
louis6578 wrote:
I personally think that Duck/Ahiru from Princess Tutu fixes all my complaints about Usagi. Hell, a lot of Princess Tutu feels like Sailor Moon but better. Especially when I compare Mamoru to Fakir or Rue to any of the Sailor Moon villains turned good.


Did you know the director is the same? Anime hyper His name is Junichi Satou

Ikuko Itou also worked on both series. She is responsible for Tutu's characters and the designs. She did some character art for certain Sailor Moon episodes and they look the best.

Oh yes, Fakir could kick Mamoru's pathetic ass to the moon and back. Razz There's a good reason he's in my top 20 Best Male Characters and Mamoru wouldn't even be in top 100. Anime hyper

Admittedly, Tutu would probably not exist without Sailor Moon paving the way for all the magical girl shows coming after. Is it a better show? Oh yes, in every single way.
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louis6578



Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 1857
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:03 am Reply with quote
I feel like I ruined Sailor Moon for myself by seeing it now, but seeing all other magical girl anime before it. I blame Viz for taking so long to dub it.
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Animeking1108



Joined: 26 Apr 2011
Posts: 1244
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:18 pm Reply with quote
Sorry to open another can of worms with "One-Punch Man," but once again, the fanbase had to try to ruin "My Hero Academia." I said something in response, and because criticizing this series is a crime worse than burning down an orphanage, I got accused of being a troll when the OPM fanbrats started it. So, I need a little catharsis here.

Another problem I have with the series is the same problem I had with "Bludgeoning Angel Dokuro-chan:" the premise is built around one joke. You can only twist the formula so many times before it gets stale. It almost feels like a glorified internet meme, and the last time somebody tried making an internet meme into TV (the Grumpy Cat Christmas movie, BTW), it ended badly. I can summarize the punchline (no pun intended) for every episode: "I can kill things with one punch!"
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louis6578



Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 1857
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:51 pm Reply with quote
A lot of people don't realize that the same appeal of Captain Tylor is that of One Punch Man. The main character can get through all the trouble without even trying. He almost plays by different narrative rules than everyone else. The thing that makes it work is that every other character in the series is played straight and they DO have to try to earn their victories. Not to mention that, because no one else knows that Saitama can easily defeat these monsters, they believe that they're humanity's last hope against these monsters.

The comedy may get old, but I'd argue that the true strength of OPM is the dramatic tension and action. But yes, I will also admit that My Hero Academia is the better show of the two.
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Chiibi



Joined: 19 Dec 2011
Posts: 4828
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:51 pm Reply with quote
Also Saitama's reaction to....most things, not just monsters is...well, just really amusing. Anime hyper

Have you ever seen a character more bored with his life?
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louis6578



Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 1857
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:11 am Reply with quote
Chiibi wrote:
Also Saitama's reaction to....most things, not just monsters is...well, just really amusing. Anime hyper

Have you ever seen a character more bored with his life?


I agree. The thing that makes OPM so great is that even if the comedy is repetitive for some, Saitama is a genuinely great character. He manages to sort of deconstruct the Gary Stu archetype and make it something acceptable. Hell, HE'S the only way that such a character can be acceptable. Well... one of the only ways anyway. I'd say Saitama, Captain Tylor, and Sakamoto are all acceptable, flawless individuals for being bored of their perfections, unaware of their strengths, and genuinely helping others to improve by wanting to surpass them.
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Set1229



Joined: 30 May 2012
Posts: 146
Location: Pittsburgh
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:53 pm Reply with quote
I honestly often like edited dubs. Admittedly, some edits such as Michiru and Haruka's relationship were uncalled for, but I see that the real problem is not always the companies editing, but rather how discriminatory people are about romantic preferences.

As someone who likes things corny, the edits to Yu-Gi-Oh made my day. Some people do like things corny.

Also, I wish people would stop judging prejudging NY voice actors, just because they were in 4Kids edits. They were directed to cheese it up and have been in a few uncut shows, besides those creepy hentai. I have spoken to some of them and they are very good people, from what I've seen.

I have never bootlegged a Pretty Cure show, so I don't understand why people whine about the Glitter Force version. To be frank, I'm just glad that I'm even able to watch one in English with my adorable niece. More interested in the happiness and fun the youths have with the shows than the vile damnation that comes from those who are discriminatory against edited dubs, even when they make innocent children smile.
People whine about something being less, well that didn't stop Mike Begum/Brolylegs from humiliating competitive fighting gamers, when all of his limbs are deformed. You can be less than "complete" and still be awesome. Isn't that part of Rock Lee's appeal?

Speaking of cuts and localization, if being uncut is inherently bad, why did Toho give approval for some scenes to be cut in the American dub of Godzilla 2000? Sometimes, changes in scripts fix plot holes.

This applies to all writing, not just anime. The original is not inherently perfect, or "Shakespeare" as some may say. Sometimes, the adaptation does something better than the original creator. As much as I love Mythical Detective Loki , the manga and anime are very different. I love them both, as both are enjoyable. Being 100% faithful is not a universally good idea, as it will not work for everyone. Some might say "but the accuracy is where the money is!", I don't care. It only matters to me if I like it. If others like the original more, that's fine, but never expect me to follow the "original is inherently better" train.


Last edited by Set1229 on Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:00 am; edited 4 times in total
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