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Incest in Anime/Hentai: A Theory


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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
Posts: 13224
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:57 pm Reply with quote
Freelance_Philosopher wrote:
So...I take that as a spoiler...?


Eeeeh, not really? The anime never delves into it. It's mostly just background information released in guide books and the like. It will change your perceptions on the show's events once you learn just who is related to whom and how, though.
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Jose Cruz



Joined: 20 Nov 2012
Posts: 1767
Location: South America
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:52 pm Reply with quote
I think that the main drawing point of incest in anime/manga is the same as the drawing point of unrealistic stuff in those mediums: manga/anime is a youth culture that seeks to transgress the reality of daily life. So things that do not often happen in the real world like incest, tend to be emphasized in anime/manga. It's essentially a form of fantasy and it's appeal is similar to the appeal of things that only exist commonly in anime/manga like fighting girls.

I was reading Beautiful Fighting Girl and while I wasn't deeply convinced by everything the author claims (like most psychatrists he overemphasizes sex) his main point is valid: manga/anime with its specific visual language is an alternate reality and its reality is anchored in being distinct from "normal" reality. Hence the common presense of stuff that you will not find easily in most other fictional mediums that are less "visually abstract" than anime.

Also, the same applies to otaku sexuality: the attraction of anime relationships is fundamentally distinct from the attraction of real world relationships. So that's why otaku like relationships featuring things that do not exist in reality.

So, summing up, the appeal of incest is the same as the appeal of Girls und Panzers. Albeit, I don't have that much experience with incest in the stuff I read and watch actually. This thread only reminded me of Oreimo.


Last edited by Jose Cruz on Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 23665
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:28 pm Reply with quote
It's an interesting point, Jose Cruz, and no doubt provides at least some of the answer as to why the incest trope is prevalent in anime/manga, but it still leaves unanswered questions. For example, sure, I buy that in any escapist entertainment form, its viewers/readers are looking to "trangress the reality of daily life" but then why is the incest trope so specific to anime/manga? Outside of porn, I'm not aware of any other escapist entertainment where the incest thing is so prevalent. I think the reason it is so prevalent in anime is culturally based. I do not believe for a second that Japanese otaku are more hung up on the fantasy of incest than other cultures. I think there has to be some additional factor that isn't as present in other cultures. Ergo, my theory that social anxiety - which is present in all cultures, but I believe to be particularly strong in Japanese society - might be having an impact. If my theory is correct, it is operating at a subconscious level. But I think Japanese otaku are interested in seeing representations of loving relationships and in a bit of a screwed up way feel more comfortable when such a relationship is between a younger sister and older brother. In an odd way, a scenario like that erases some of the social friction (between the two characters, of course, not between them and the larger society which would be disapproving) that is otherwise inherent in a boy and a girl getting together. Again, I might be all wet, but there is a certain logic to my deductions.

I am also curious ... I wonder which show first introduced the incest trope? Has it been around since close to the beginning? Did it appear here and there, but a certain show "popularized" it? I dunno. This is where my lack of knowledge of early anime comes in.
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Jose Cruz



Joined: 20 Nov 2012
Posts: 1767
Location: South America
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:56 pm Reply with quote
@Blood -, Incest is popular in anime because the more abstract visual language of anime/manga is more fitting for this kind of stuff: its an alternate reality and its anchored through this kind of stuff. It the same reason why stuff like Girls und Panzer happens in anime and not in live action: live action is not the right medium for this sort of thing.

The social anxiety that appears to be more common in Japan makes sense in providing some explanation why people would be fantasizing their sisters but doesn't explain why anime/manga has more incest than live action film in Japan.

The reason is that in the abstract world of anime/manga the reality of that world is fundamentally different from the reality of daily life or storytelling mediums that are more closely connected to it.

Anime is almost like music: it's something more abstract and fundamentally different from the reality of daily life. Stuff like Kobayashi Dragon Maid for instance wouldn't work at all in a less abstract medium like live action.


Last edited by Jose Cruz on Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:09 pm Reply with quote
Sure, I'd be prepared to think that the incest trope is more prevalent in animate/drawn works as opposed to live action because the medium in a sense "permits" exploration of things that are more taboo. But then why isn't the incest trope more prevalent in Western animation/comics/graphic novels? I also believe the otaku audience in Japan is different than the general audience for live-action material in Japan. I think their greater social anxiety (relative to non-otakus) makes them a more willing audience for relationship material where the anxiety of having to actually meet a girl and win her over is stripped away.
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Jose Cruz



Joined: 20 Nov 2012
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Location: South America
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:17 pm Reply with quote
Animation and comics are not remotely as well developed in the Western world compared to Japan. They are culturally castrated by Western aesthetic principles and philosophical framework where visual realism reings supreme. They never try to be an alternate reality and are extremely limited in their modes of expression: you don't see incest in western animation and comics because you don't see much going on in those fields in general.

If you look at other medium in the west, one that's not castrated and is also very abstract: music, you can easily find songs talking about incest:

http://www.metrolyrics.com/incest-lyrics-sodom.html

Anime/manga in Japan is very similar to popular music in the west: aggressive and uncompromising stuff that's mainly developed and consumed by the youth.


Last edited by Jose Cruz on Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
Posts: 13224
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:38 pm Reply with quote
Look up the Ultimate versions of Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:43 pm Reply with quote
Whoa, whoa, whoa ... no alternate reality in Western comics and graphic novels? Come on. Super hero comics are nothing but alternate reality and escapism. You have to look at all escapism non-live action material, including books. It's not like I've done an exhaustive examination, but I'd be willing to bet my bottom dollar that the incest trope is more concentrated in anime/manga than in any other type of non-live action escapist entertainment around the world. I don't believe that is simply a result of the medium being developed in a certain way. There are clearly cultural barriers to the prevalence of the incest trope in non-live action escapist material around the world that do not exist in anime/manga. Maybe it's just a coincidence that the demographic in question happens to a have a reputation for social anxiety within a society itself that is itself noteworthy for dreading social embarrassment, but I rather doubt it.
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Jose Cruz



Joined: 20 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:10 pm Reply with quote
Western comics are not remotely as developed as manga. In the 90's, American per capita comic book sales are about 500 times lower than Japanese comic book sales. Animation is also similar. In both cases the range of subject matter dealt with is tinghly circumscribed (superheroes in American comics, small children's movies in Disney) in the West, specially in North America.

We cannot predict how these mediums would have developed if comics and animation were not castrated in the West and grew as big in the West as they are in Japan (or anywhere else). Some people believe that the tropes typical to anime such as fighting girls are due to the fact it's animation not because it's Japanese: we cannot compare to non-Japanese stuff and claim it's "Japanese cultural aspects" because animation in the wider world is just not a well developed medium. While literature does not have the same medium type aspects as animation and comics so it's doesn't have the same environemnt that tends to create tropes like beautiful fighting girls.

Also, I wouldn't think Japanese people are on average different from the people outside of Japan, in fact it's a consensus among social scientists that people are similar on average among large groups: there are shy people in Japan, in the West, etc, there are extroverted people in Japan and in the west as well. Culture determines more how those personality types can express themselves. The weird sexual things in anime like pedophilia, incest and things like that are a product of the highly stylized and abstract nature of the medium of animation and the fact that it developed unencumbered in Japan by Christian morals and Greek aesthetic principles. I think it's just natural consequence of human sexuality combined with the reality produced by comics and animation. Its just that the repressive aspects of Western culture just don't allow the some things to happen in the West. Its similar to the fact there are no gay clubs in Iran.

Finally I don't think incest is that popular in manga/anime. The stuff I have consumed in the past several months includes:

Girlish Number (no incest)
Ef: A Tale of Memories (no incest)
Hunter X Hunter (no incest)
Ashita no Joe (manga) (no incest)
Saikano (manga) (no incest)
A Girl at the Shore (no incest)
Mob Psycho 100 (no incest)
Flip Flappers (no incest)
Sound Euphonium 2 (no incest)
Vivid Strike (no incest)
Re:Zero (no incest)
A Brides Story (no incest)

I don't recall actually consuming an anime or manga in the past year that had incest in it. Anyway, it might be less popular than the impression one might get. Its certainly not on the same scale of popularity as tropes like beautiful fighting girls in the mediums of manga and anime.
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
Posts: 13224
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:32 pm Reply with quote
Jose Cruz wrote:
Girlish Number (no incest)


I dunno, Chitose and Gojo are awfully tsundere for each other...

Even if there's no full blown incest, the romanticization of sibling relationships, applying tropes and dynamics typical of romantic relationships, is a thing.

Part of the discrepancy I think is the fact that a lot of Western works simply don't focus on [mixed-gender] sibling relationships all that much. The only movie I can think of that had a pairing of siblings as the lead is Hansel and Gretel: Witch Hunters (which I actually rather enjoyed). Gore warning in the video, I guess.

There's also that one coffee commercial...
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12skippy21



Joined: 25 Nov 2008
Posts: 785
Location: York, England
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:59 am Reply with quote
As a subject I have never considered, a quick search led me to the below news article;

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/out-of-japan-mother-love-puts-a-nation-in-the-pouch-1508595.html

Quite old but interesting. Another idea, the odd thing with 'incest' anime is that it is rarely actually incest (Koi Kaze and Oreimo being the only two that did something on the subject I remember). Porn is a seperate matter, there are loads of incest scenarios in the East and West.

As otaku tend to not be very good in the relationship department imagine being with someone in the same household, who knows you really well and is not located at a great physical or emotional distance. It is more wish fulfillment than anything as you have to put little effort into obtaining such a relationship. Ofcourse realistically, this is stupid and way too convenient, but could be another reason why some anime/manga have such a trope.
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Animegomaniac



Joined: 16 Feb 2012
Posts: 4070
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:21 pm Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
@ Vaisaga - I don't discount the forbidden fruit aspect, but I'm trying to account for why the incest theme seems so much more prevalent in anime versus other types of entertainment. No doubt the forbidden fruit aspect exists in Western culture too, but that is not reflected in the same prevalence of the incest theme in niche entertainment the way it is in Japan. The same would be true of Chiibi's "bathing together" thing. If that was a factor, you'd expect to see the incest theme be prevalent in other forms of Japanese entertainment besides just anime/manga, which, as far as I can tell, it isn't.


Prepare for an answer that'll give you a disappointing feeling of "well, isn't that obvious? Why didn't I think of that"

Incest is far more common in hentai and manga because they can do it through sheer fact of it not actually being true incest; It's all in your head. You can see so many pornographic videos of supposed incest in both Japan and America but you know on a basic level they're not related, they're not even "step" or "not blood related" siblings.

They're actors. Wait, I'm being too generous, they're acting.

However with manga and anime, they are related, they just aren't real. Really, really not real and being as such, they are 100% related in your head even if they're just ink and/or color.

And hentai isn't mainstream as you think and in fact, I can cite many Western sources of incest, pornographic, mythological and mainstream fiction and...

Look, it's not that I'm perverted- really- it's just that I have a huge.... memory.
OK, maybe a little. But I come by it honestly as I have quite the imagination...

But looking at some of these answers, I think people are thinking too hard about it by trying to involve projection in it on behalf of the viewer but that doesn't work at all because men don't think that much in regards to sexual simulation. I'd say it's a lot closer to fujoshi and yaoi... You're not involved in the slightest but the idea of it happening at all is enticing. But it's also not about the idea of "forbidden fruit" because on another level, you know it does happen.

And that's all I say in that direction. I've studied sociology, biology and psychology and this is how I use them. I don't know if my profs would be proud or just shake their heads.
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Gina Szanboti



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 11306
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:04 pm Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:
There's also that one coffee commercial...

I'd never seen that one. Did that guy just imply he couldn't get real coffee in West Africa?? Confused

[sweeping generalizations ahoy!] My very side-wise answer to the topic is that there isn't really anything the west comparable to anime and manga in Japan. What similar media we do have is watched over with a more judgmental eye since it's more strongly viewed as being for children. Independent/underground comics and cartoons have some niche corners where I'm sure you can find some incest storylines that aren't outright x-rated, but as long as it doesn't approach mainstream circulation numbers it will fly under the radar, as it does with most imported anime and manga (imagine the shitstorm here if Maria the Virgin Witch had become as widely popular as Attack on Titan). Any comics and cartoons that were as above ground as manga and anime are in Japan would get slapped down so hard if they went for the incest angle as casually as Japan does. The most you get here in more mainstream stuff is the occasional incest joke because they don't want to draw the wrath of the moral guardians.

tl:dr they do it in Japan because they can.
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