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What are you watching right now? Why? (please read 1st post)


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louis6578



Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 1857
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:11 pm Reply with quote
Okay, better comparison. Saber is to Shirou what most of Tenchi's girls are to him. Rin is to Shirou what Asuna SHOULD BE to Kirito (gonna leave that rant by the door for now). Sakura is to Shirou what most of Kirito's harem ends up being to him. Powerful women who are subservient to him in order to make Kirito look even cooler.
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Chiibi



Joined: 19 Dec 2011
Posts: 4828
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:27 pm Reply with quote
louis6578 wrote:
Sakura is to Shirou what most of Kirito's harem ends up being to him. Powerful women who are subservient to him in order to make Kirito look even cooler.


Lol, they are not what I would call "powerful women", exactly. Liz doesn't fight at all and she can only make things; Silica is a little kid who is still inexperienced, Sinon was never actually that emotionally strong until she goes through her character arc. Even so, all three of these girls are nowhere near Sakura's level of subservience to Shirou.

Since Asuna IS Kirito's equal (yes, she is; she has saved him as many times as he, her), that really only leaves Suguha to fit your description....and I already know she sucks. Anime hyper
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Akane the Catgirl



Joined: 09 Oct 2013
Posts: 1091
Location: LA, Baby!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:20 am Reply with quote
Funny, I still have to write SAO Has a Heroine Problem, which will be covering how the first season treats it's female characters. (In my opinion, not very well. Aside from Sachi the Fridged Woman and Suguha's man-dependent character arc, I personally think Asuna was screwed over long before Fairy Dance began...)
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Jose Cruz



Joined: 20 Nov 2012
Posts: 1767
Location: South America
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:08 am Reply with quote
I began watching Sweetness and Lightning, so far a very nice and relaxing slice of life show featuring a single male raising his daughter. Its a pretty common setup in anime/manga: Yotsuba, Usagi Drop, this one and several other examples. I guess it appeals to otaku who want to have kids but are not in a relationship (a situation that characterizes 70% of Japanese).
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Chiibi



Joined: 19 Dec 2011
Posts: 4828
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:40 am Reply with quote
Akane the Catgirl wrote:
I personally think Asuna was screwed over long before Fairy Dance began...)


I'm going to say "Nope but do elaborate, please".
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Akane the Catgirl



Joined: 09 Oct 2013
Posts: 1091
Location: LA, Baby!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:01 pm Reply with quote
Chiibi wrote:
Akane the Catgirl wrote:
I personally think Asuna was screwed over long before Fairy Dance began...)


I'm going to say "Nope but do elaborate, please".


I'm going to be brief because I'll delive into further detail when I eventually finish writing the essay in question. My problem with how Asuna is treated in the second half of Aincrad and nearly all of Fairy Dance is the same problem I had with Yoko Littner in Gurren Lagann (and if you think I'm ragging on Sword Art Online[/b too much], I've made it clear I think [b]Gurren Lagann has huge issues with how it portrays women). Both Yoko and Asuna are awesome female characters who don't take sh*t from anyone, and yet their respective narratives decide they need a man in their life. In Yoko's case, both her love interests dying is treated as sad because she didn't get to be a blushing bride. With Asuna, it's a bit more complicated, and I'd rather save my arguments for my essay.

And I know you're probably thinking "but Asuna has swords and stuff and she fights with Kirito!" In other words, an action girl cannot be written in a sexist manner. By that logic, Barb Wire would be hailed as a feminist masterpiece. I distinctly remember Kate Beaton's "Strong Female Characters" comics satirizing this sort of argument, as well as straw feminists in general. (In case you're wondering, those comics are where the "sexism is over" meme originated from). There's multiple ways to write a women in a sexist role, and not even action girls are safe.
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Chiibi



Joined: 19 Dec 2011
Posts: 4828
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:42 pm Reply with quote
Akane the Catgirl wrote:
Both Yoko and Asuna are awesome female characters who don't take sh*t from anyone, and yet their respective narratives decide they need a man in their life.


............what, but that's like you're saying "An awesome female character cannot possibly remain awesome if she falls in love with a man".

Why?

Why can't you love someone AND be able to kick ass at the same time? That sounds far more sexist to me. I'd also like point out that Kirito's narrative decided he needed a woman in his life. Simon is treated as a tragic hero because his bride dies and he never finds love again. So this boils down to "Humans need each other to survive" which is not a wrong message; it's an accurate one. People get married because they don't want to be alone.

This reminds me of how Naoko Takeuchi got accused of being "sexist" because she said Usagi's dream was to be a bride to the man she loves.

Except Naoko said ".....um.....Usagi's personality is based on mine and that's what I wanted for myself."

It's like.....like slut-shaming but substitute "slut" for "bride". Rolling Eyes
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Akane the Catgirl



Joined: 09 Oct 2013
Posts: 1091
Location: LA, Baby!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:02 pm Reply with quote
Chiibi wrote:

............what, but that's like you're saying "An awesome female character cannot possibly remain awesome if she falls in love with a man".

Why?

Why can't you love someone AND be able to kick ass at the same time? That sounds far more sexist to me. I'd also like point out that Kirito's narrative decided he needed a woman in his life. So this boils down to "Humans need each other to survive" which is not a wrong message; it's an accurate one. People get married because they don't want to be alone.


I'm not saying they can't. Heck, I can name one particular character who I felt became a better character when she fell in love. Spoilers underneath...

spoiler[Maki Harukawa from New Danganronpa V3. She starts as a standard mysterious girl who is later revealed to be a secret assassin. Admittedly, there was something generic about the archetype she fell into. As she becomes part of the three amigos with Shuuichi Saihara and Kaito Momota, she become more rounded and ended up as one of the best members of the cast. Her relationship with Momota in particular felt like it was there to humanize her and show she wasn't just an angry anti-social loner.]

For something less spoiler-y, how about Holo the Wise Wolf? I loved Holo! I thought she was one of the great heroines in modern anime! Her life includes Kraft Lawrence, but it doesn't revolve around him. Both of them are people with goals and dreams and likes and dislikes. It just so happens that they're in love.

And I do believe that humans need each other to survive. It's a great message, as well as true. I have no problem with a story trying to teach that. It's just that I don't think the message was portrayed very well in SAO, if that's what it was even trying to do. I never once had the impression that Kirito needed people to function. If anything, I thought other people existed just to put Kirito on a pedestal. I'm also planning to write another essay on why I personally don't think Kirito works as a protagonist, so I won't go into it too much here. Though before you ask, I think the God-mode accusation is overused and there's far more egregious problems with how Kirito is written.
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Chiibi



Joined: 19 Dec 2011
Posts: 4828
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:30 pm Reply with quote
Akane the Catgirl wrote:
. I never once had the impression that Kirito needed people to function. If anything, I thought other people existed just to put Kirito on a pedestal.


Um...well, when you have the time, I'd like you to rewatch the final episode of the Aincrad arc and closely pay attention to his reaction when Asuna disappears....and then there is also the scene where he goes completely crybaby in Suguha's arms because he can't find Asuna later.....

He needs her very very badly. She ends up being his only reason to survive and beat the game because he has such little regard for his own life. But in case you think I'm just making this stuff up, one of the writers confirmed this at a SAO panel I attended in 2014.

"Yes, Kirito saved Asuna in the beginning but later on, she is the one to save him in the end."

Perhaps the quality of this execution differs for viewers. I was absolutely able to see it though and I loved it because it showed how fragile Kirito actually is on the inside.
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Akane the Catgirl



Joined: 09 Oct 2013
Posts: 1091
Location: LA, Baby!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:44 pm Reply with quote
Chiibi wrote:
Akane the Catgirl wrote:
. I never once had the impression that Kirito needed people to function. If anything, I thought other people existed just to put Kirito on a pedestal.


Um...well, when you have the time, I'd like you to rewatch the final episode of the Aincrad arc and closely pay attention to his reaction when Asuna disappears....and then there is also the scene where he goes completely crybaby in Suguha's arms because he can't find Asuna later.....

He needs her very very badly. She ends up being his only reason to survive and beat the game because he has such little regard for his own life. But in case you think I'm just making this stuff up, one of the writers confirmed this at a SAO panel I attended in 2014.

"Yes, Kirito saved Asuna in the beginning but later on, she is the one to save him in the end."

Perhaps the quality of this execution differs for viewers. I was absolutely able to see it though and I loved it because it showed how fragile Kirito actually is on the inside.


I will give you that the final episode of Aincrad was one of the better episodes of the first season. Though if you asked me, I think the "Asuna sacrificing herself" thing was a huge plot hole that was handled terribly. (In general, I don't think the show- or at the very least, the first season- is the best at handling death scenes, which is a whole 'nother can of worms). I'm planning on having Yui do the sacrifice instead (yeah, in my rewrite, she lives longer), and Kayaba being so distraught at murdering her that he drops the fight and lets everyone free.

Personally, Kirito is not the worst character in history. Not even close. As far as I know from others who've seen his show, Tatsuya Shiba is a far worse offender in terms of Stuness. My theory is that Kirito was never supposed to be a wish fulfillment character at all. If anything, he reminds me a lot of my OCs for my old Sonic the Hedgehog middle school fanfiction that have since been lost to time thank God. My issue is more that he's too bland for my tastes and hogs the spotlight from characters who deserve it more. I'd focus far more on fixing the plot and pacing before tackling Kirito.
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Chiibi



Joined: 19 Dec 2011
Posts: 4828
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:18 pm Reply with quote
Akane the Catgirl wrote:
Though if you asked me, I think the "Asuna sacrificing herself" thing was a huge plot hole that was handled terribly.


It kinda was. Anime hyper

It actually bothers me so much; not the fact that she did it.....but how she was still alive in the real world after. I'm hoping the ALO novels will fill in the holes....because it doesn't make any freaking sense at all.
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Akane the Catgirl



Joined: 09 Oct 2013
Posts: 1091
Location: LA, Baby!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:27 pm Reply with quote
Chiibi wrote:
Akane the Catgirl wrote:
Though if you asked me, I think the "Asuna sacrificing herself" thing was a huge plot hole that was handled terribly.


It kinda was. Anime hyper

It actually bothers me so much; not the fact that she did it.....but how she was still alive in the real world after. I'm hoping the ALO novels will fill in the holes....because it doesn't make any freaking sense at all.


Yeah, and she shouldn't have been able to make the sacrifice anyway! She was paralyzed with everyone else! It makes no sense having HER be at the blunt end of Kayaba's sword because not even the power of love can accomplish stuff like that. Yui dying here makes a lot more sense and would have been a lot more meaningful. Like I said, I'm planning on rewriting SAO, but this isn't really the place to talk about that.
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Cam0



Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 4884
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:55 pm Reply with quote
There was the revive potion thing, right? It worked as long you used it within a certain period of time. That implied that the people who died in the game didn't immediately die in the real world.

And when it comes spoiler[to Kirito being able to cheat death for a while and Asuna being able to break free from the paralyze, I thought that the game Kayaba created had become more than he thought.] That's the justification I tried to come up with. It's more likely to be just bad writing though.
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Akane the Catgirl



Joined: 09 Oct 2013
Posts: 1091
Location: LA, Baby!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 4:10 pm Reply with quote
Cam0 wrote:
There was the revive potion thing, right? It worked as long you used it within a certain period of time. That implied that the people who died in the game didn't immediately die in the real world.

And when it comes spoiler[to Kirito being able to cheat death for a while and Asuna being able to break free from the paralyze, I thought that the game Kayaba created had become more than he thought.] That's the justification I tried to come up with. It's more likely to be just bad writing though.


No, it's just stupid. I'm just now reminded of something called "The Thermian Argument". Basically, it's using in-universe reasoning to justify out-of-universe writing decisions. Folding Ideas did a video on it, and I recommend you all watch it. It'll put a lot of things in perspective.
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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 15434
Location: Brisbane, Australia
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 6:40 pm Reply with quote
I feel like I have been over SAO so much for people who can't handle it, they keep thinking that the show breaks its own rules. But a lot of people do not understand is that in truth rules put in place by the game's lore/mechanics are not actually the absolute rules. It is a virtual environment, and they actually tend to glitch, like any number of things inside Skyrim, from buying a house for free by offering to buy it but depositing the money out of my inventory before it is taken, to duplicating objects. If a game has enough and the right type of input, they can kind of break, like Kirito spoiler[surviving while supposed to being dead], or Asuna spoiler[moving while not supposed to be]. It is actually a kind of truth in games.

A kind of famous example is the critically acclaimed Ocarina of Time, which for the most part is a stable narrative game that requires going all over the game world to a lot of dungeons to collect items. The game should require a number of hours to complete, like no way around it, but people found exploits that allow them to beat it in less than 18 minutes by putting in seemingly random inputs at the right time that messes with the code and allows the hero, Link, as a child to go to the last fight in the game after fighting the first, and win using only a stick. For a game like SAO which uses controls directly connected to the brain, it really should not be surprising that with the right force of will it could be broken, like the movie The Matrix is all about this in its fights.

As video games have become more complex they have more and more required that they will need a patch, that one little thing could be overlooked by a developer. Saying that it is impossible within a game for something to happen because its mechanics and its mechanics say so, is just not a sure thing.
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