Forum - View topicGhost in the Shell. Overexposed/Overrated?
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Woomy
 Posts: 110 |
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Yea, Innocence was extremely heavy handed with the philosophical themes that it was practically self-masturbatory. Nearly every character was spouting that stuff. Why does Batou know or even care about Descartes? |
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Boomer
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^
Because people are complex, and it is not inconceivable that a character such as Batou might have heard of, or read something by, Descartes. People make the mistake of assuming that the Ghost in the Shell movies are primarily about action. They are primarily about ideas with some action thrown in to move the plot forward. This is especially true about Innocence. |
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Vaisaga
 Posts: 13224 |
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Yeah, but there are far more compelling ways to express ideas than simply having characters regurgitate the words of famous philosophers.
But I guess I never found this stuff to be particularly deep to begin with. Is the Major human or machine? Simple: she is who she choses to be. |
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Woomy
Posts: 110 |
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Innocence was the director going a little overboard with the themes and mostly seeing the logic of what he was trying to do, and not the depiction. It seriously is just piling a bunch of this stuff in there and using whatever character to convey it. Machine gunning this rather pretentious stuff with dialogue that isn't very natural at all, but very obtuse. The saving grace was the actors being able to actually act their way through it trying as best as they can. I always felt the original film flowed better with its character drama and themes as it knew how to mesh those perfectly together especially as Motoko's story lent itself well to it. Honestly, for lack of a better way to put it, Innocence was GiTS being extremely so far up its own a$$ sometimes it might never see the light of day. At the end of the day it wasn't a bad film by any means, and Oshii's direction he took with the series is still superior to me than the actual source material, but it doesn't have the same impact or is remembered as fondly as the 95 film for a reason. Also, I never said it was all about action. In fact, the original Oshii film is what I like most for not being just an action packed endeavor which I feel later incarnations leaned more towards. Never really clicked with S.A.C. and especially that Arise stuff. Lastly, can we really stop pretending GiTS is some unparalleled sophisticated piece of entertainment that has never, or never will be matched? I understand its legacy, it's rightfully a pretty influential film, but even it was inspired by things that like I said did things it did better. It's not the end all, be all of sci-fi/cyberpunk fiction. And it's not really that hard to understand. Yes, it is a more demanding film than some that require the audience to have a bit of discipline, but it's not that hard to get what the film was trying to say. Don't start assuming people are just idiots for thinking that just maybe the film in retrospect was good and influential, but rightfully garners criticism as well. Honestly, if GiTS came out today, it wouldn't have the impact it did. |
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Touma
 Posts: 2651 Location: Colorado, USA |
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I just watched Innocence a couple of days ago and I thought that it had a lot more action than talking. Maybe it depends on what makes an impression on you and how you watch the movie.
I was not interested in the philosophical mumbo-jumbo and it just sort of went in one ear and out the other while I looked at the pretty pictures and thought about what had been happening in the story and speculated about what might be coming. The fights and other scenes where something was actually happening were what got my attention, and I enjoyed them a lot. For me Innocence was a very satisfying and entertaining science fiction action movie. |
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Boomer
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I would say that GITS has since been equaled by other cyberpunk anime but never surpassed. It also had significant impact on many series and movies that came afterward.
The genuinely overrated Matrix franchise is said to have been influenced by Ghost in the Shell yet that garnered near universal acclaim (well, the first movie did anyway) by general everyday moviegoers because it had plenty of 'splosions and Keanu Reeves going "Whoa!" I hear few people nowadays going back and stating the obvious, that it was a shallow action/adventure story built around a clever philosophical conceit. If there was ever a movie that deserved a rigorous critical reevaluation, the Matrix would be it. If GITS came out today, it would have just as much an impact as it did back in the day, especially in the current anime environment with its overabundance of moe and relative dearth of good cyberpunk. The closest recent comparison I can think of is Psycho-Pass which, while good, lacks the freshness, originality and visual style of GITS. Its themes may be more relevant to the contemporary zeitgeist, yet I doubt that it will have the same staying power as GITS. Personally, the only other cyberpunk anime that I like and admire as much as the original GITS movies is the Bubblegum Crisis spinoff, Parasite Dolls. It is probably no coincidence that the latter shares many thematic and tonal similarities with GITS. |
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CCTakato
Posts: 514 |
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Ghost in the Shell was my first non-Ghibli anime movie I ever saw when I first got into anime way back in high school and it's always been one of my top favorite classics and I think it still holds up. I can see some people might find it preachy but I always thought it was handled in a thoughtful way and I always loved the atmosphere of the movie and I love Batou and Motoko's dynamic together. The animation still looks amazing years later and I love the haunting soundtrack. I feel like people go into GITS expecting it to be a philosophical action thriller when it's more of an exploration of philosophical ideas that happens to use a sci-fi action thriller as it's backdrop but it's not the action parts that's the focus of it. But Ghost in the Shell was one of the first mature anime movies that really broke into the mainstream and proved anime could be more than mindless sex and violence and that anime could be a respectful art form with interesting ideas and I think that's what made it such a huge hit. There are certainly plenty more cyberpunk anime that one should check out, like Ergo Proxy, Serial Experiments Lain, and Psycho Pass, but even all those I think owe their inspirations to GITS and wouldn't exist without it. Whether or not you like those other titles better, I think sci-fi anime would be completely different without GITS and I don't think anime as a medium or anime fandom would be the same without it.
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CoreSignal
 Posts: 727 Location: California, USA |
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As far as sci-fi /cyberpunk anime and manga go, GITS is definitely the highest standard. Even as a Psycho Pass fan, I've yet to see another cyberpunk anime or manga that comes close to GITS after all years.
Compared to non-anime/manga cyberpunk work, like Neuromancer or Blade Runner, I'd say it's up there as well. GITS isn't as original as Neuromancer or Blade Runner, since the former essentially created the genre and the latter created the look. But what makes GITS stand out is the emphasis on detail, the political/spy thriller elements, the action elements, and the visuals. GITS's obsessive attention to technical details is something you often don't see in a lot of cyberpunk. It's easy to dimiss everything as technobabble but many of terms they throw around in GITS have are based on real-world concepts and it's not just Shirow making stuff up (most of the time at least). The thriller and procedural elements are unique as well. Classic cyberpunk fiction in the vein of Neuromancer or Blade Runner tend to focus on anti-establishment characters (the punk in cyberpunk), whereas the cast of GITS are ironically gov't employees. In addition, much of the plot in GITS, especially in the manga and Stand Alone Complex, revolve around spy intrigue. And let's not forgot all the cool action stuff. GITS has plenty of cool action scenes (including the manga). It's no secret that all the iconic GITS scenes involve blowing stuff up. With the exception of cyberpunk themed video games, most cyberpunk fiction doesn't involve explosions and shootouts. Lastly, the visuals. GITS has plenty of cool, futuristic looking weapons and tech. The thermo-optic camoflauge, the Major's goggles, Batou's eyes, the Fuchikoma/Tachikomas, etc. These are all iconic designs and it's no surprise that this is what initially draws people to the series, myself included. I'm in the minority here, but I do think the original/1995 movie is a little overrated. Yes, the original movie is a classic and it's visually stunning, otherwise I don't think the movie is as deep as some people make it out to be. The original movie is really more Oshii than Shirow, which is fine, but it does give the "wrong" impression of the GITS series as a whole, just because the manga and the other anime adaptations are very different. There are plenty of people out there who have dislike or have no interest in the manga or SAC and Arise just because they expect something like the first movie. Like most western fans my first exposure to GITS was the original movie but when I first read the manga afterward, I realized how different and how much content was left out of the movie. In any case, I feel the overall GITS series is not overrated and deserves all the praise. |
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Woomy
Posts: 110 |
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Different doesn't mean bad though. Honestly, Oshii taking creative control from Shirow was for the better because it's what made Ghost in the Shell influential in the first place. While Oshii would plant all these seeds that gave GiTS its legacy, Shirow was just busy drawing women giving each other oil massages. I'm no prude, as I admit to being a very sexual person who's not ashamed of my kinks and whatnot, but the awkward slapstick panels, and things like Motoko having a hardcore lesbian three-way, take away from the thematic weight of the story. And the only reason he did do something like that, was because he didn't want to draw dude butts. Yeeeeaaaa, the direction Oshii took this series in was seriously for the better. Just because Shirow created the original, that doesn't mean he has the superior incarnation. Kind of like comparing comic writers. For example, just because Grant Morrison didn't create characters like Batman and Animal Man, it doesn't mean he didn't have the best runs on those characters. Hell, his All Star Superman is also one of the best, if not THE best Superman story out there that I also point to when you want a tale that is practically a definitive version of the character. *sigh* if only these DC movies took more inspiration from things like that instead of that freaking hack Frank Miller. Eff that guy. Sorry for getting a little carried away. |
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gdpetti
Posts: 23 |
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Not into manga, but I remember checking out Shirow's GiTS after seeing some version of the story... not sure which one I saw first, the manga is funny, so much 'fan service' but that erotic stuff was what he liked drawing the most, right? Wasn't that his main job before? Whatever the name for it is... looks good, but so often it gets in the way of the story.. and Shirow never took the story up again after that last beautiful color layout... so there isn't much in terms of a storyline to pump out more product, so every reboot tells the same story over again... none of them were/are esoteric and so it never goes 'to the next level'.... Matrix came a little closer... the whole 'wake up' bit... in the end he has to 'wake' himself up, same process in everyone's life...
Shirow was into the whole tech aspect of this 'transhumanism' that the PTB are pushing so much... implying they aren't 'graduation' level or this would be a rather mute point... something that Shirow should learn about and kick up the Major's character, after that merge with that other ghost guy into her system... further enabling her to expand directly.... this points to the rather obvious 4th density stuff.... accessing the 'Akashic records' etc.... the social memory complex.... all next level stuff for those that 'graduate'.... as in the Matrix 3, in the end, only Neo 'graduates'... the rest remain just programs within the main program, though they never show him actually do it, again that brick wall... interesting that there was a German 2part miniseries that was essentially most of the Matrix storyline... add in that American comic for the cast.... only the brothers put them in leather to make them 'cool'... the Brothers 'borrowed' from so many... no wonder they weren't sued. 
As for the new GiTs... word isn't very good on it... good to look at, but story changes and problems... especially with our MC, the Major... and not for the better IMO... yes, taking kids/teens to test, experiment on isn't new, and our govt R&D labs use nearly all kinds of people, not just kids with vacccines, GMOs etc, but prisoners and especially minorities are a favorite of theirs... but in GiTS, I don't think this R&D program would use them, they would do it as in the manga.. soldiers losing parts in battle... .unless the new film took out that war as well? Seems they kept the look, but change so much else....and I don't really mind, as any reboot can redo whatever they like as long as they maintain the key elements... this aspect of what life as a transhuman would be like... I don't think those PTB types pushing for this have thought about it much at all... too busy having their experiments done on their prey/victims etc.. This should have been put in the storyline.. it isn't just a 'corporate' thing, nor just a 'govt' thing... but the entire PTB thing... trying to live forever... using the masses in some form to test their ideas and products on... as they always do.... we live in Purgatory.. so it's to be expected. Most often, literary references don't process well in story forms, especially those sold to the public... they need to forget the literary reference and return the idea/concept to its original thought... that idea of transition... they are better off ignoring who said what in whatever text in the past... gets in the way of presenting the thought itself... it doesn't matter who we heard it from or what book we read it in... it's the thought itself that matters, not the messenger.... The GiTS franchise still works because this thought remains fresh, more so in each year perhaps as we get closer to those forms taking stage.... the R&D programs have just advanced some more since Shirow started that manga, perhaps he should take it to the next level? Isn't it about time? the Brothers that did the Matrix series seem to have stalled out at the same point of this 'transition' to 4d... the 'doorway'. The use of the internet is another example of it... the setting up of the 'social memory complex'... accessing all knowledge/data in the planet's own memory complex... this is rarely covered, most likely because none of the artists involved are really esoterically inclined, though it is rather difficult to portray this aspect of 4d... though some tidbits show up here and there.. I see a new anime this season utilizing some basic boy/girl dynamic/trope that is showing one aspect of 4d.... where thoughts take form... "Alice to Zouroku"... it could be a typical farce, it does seem to be a comedy... but this is as good as it gets when trying to find this stuff, and that is why, IMO, GiTS is still being explored... it uses a rather classic action genre, throws in a good looking girl in skimpy outfits to set the worldview to explore these concepts... the others that have come along since the manga have put their own take on the concept, added to it a little bit, but it remains much the same.. this tendency for the PTB, especially the military types, to explore immortality, supersoldiers... thru robotics, AI based systems, but to include themselves as immortal, they have to have this 'ghost'... and remember tha saying.... about the 'ghost in the machine'?.. .this is why this storyline still works... like Matrix, it uses a popular format of action to set the stage for their exploration of this concept of 'transition'..... of being in 'Purgatory'... left side of the Tree of Life where the 'dark side' rules, etc... .thus we always have an 'evil empire', today it's still our turn to lead the Axis.... with the usual suspects pushing the plot, always wanting to rule the world... currently the creation of global chaos to generate enough negative energy to get their NWO, which is the OWO, only 'out of the closet'.. same police state... the same story as usual in every civilization. Most anime's are just exploring 'love' relationships here in 3D... I remember how Naruto utilized the chakras for this as well, most decent stories do in some way... as it never changes.... thus GiTS remains... a stepping stone awaiting that next level.... she hasn't gotten there yet in any of the versions I've seen yet... the use of a soldier is interesting in that it isn't the type we usually see when the story goes esoteric... like it did with the robots/androids in BladeRunner... that guy at least was more 'aware' than the rest of the characters, and the approach of death pushes the mind into exploration... same as it does for all of us.. be it natural, or in war, disease etc... smaller versions use shaming enough to push kids into suicide in today's cramped culture, which has gone more and more internal... self exploration like in LAIN... I hear the recent GiTS isn't too good, good to look at, but the writing isn't up to par... bad rewrite of the Major.... doesn't fit her warrior self as all the other versions have utilized as a format to explore this concept... not bad if it was written well, but word is that it isn't... Scarlett never looked the part and with a bad rewrite/direction.... bad box office... if they wanted to change the character that much, they should have just utilized it as a worldview and changed her name... they tried to have it both ways... crappy idea. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13224 |
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Just saw the live action movie tonight. Gotta say I liked it a lot more than the original. They cut back a lot on the pretentious navel gazing and made the Major much more likable. The "am I just a machine" thing actually seems to bother her, whereas anime Major doesn't give a shit about anyone or anything. Hard to care about what's happening when your main character doesn't care either.
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Cam0
 Posts: 4888 |
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Vaisaga, you're setting some serious death flags there. Well, it was nice knowing ya.
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13224 |
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Oh please, I'll be fine. Now if you'll excuse me, I must return to my hometown to get married...
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gdpetti
Posts: 23 |
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Depends upon what you mean by 'navel gazing'... what is "too much"? Do you mean by the Major character or the director/writer? Going 'within' will easily be that way and not just seem to be... but the difference is whether one is 'awake' or still 'asleep'... the crux of this whole concept of 'ghost in the machine' or awakening consciousness... which is what it is... especially in an emerging transhumanist world platform so many in the 'deep state' desire... most likely not understanding what it is they really want, nor what it entails to do so... as they really don't understand AI anyway: http://www.businessinsider.com/the-dark-secret-at-the-heart-of-artificial-intelligence-2017-4
All of which is hinted at in this series, though not taken to that next level... same with all those that serve this system behind the scenes, though they hint around it alot... here's someone that was behind that curtain in Oz and came back after 'failing' the test of child sacrificing... seems his conscience woke up from the 'freezer' as he put it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEpcY5JU120 Roland Bernard High Finance Shocking Revelations (Dutch with Subtitles) Even if it's just a manga/anime... the stuff it's based on is real... even if the authors/directors aren't completely aware of it... same with this issue of the 'ghost'.... aka consciousness... but then you have to add in information field theory for how consciousness takes form... which ties into the holographic nature of our universe... or the space/time continuum as we know it anyway.... 
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louis6578
 Posts: 1860 |
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Overrated? Eh... I think it's as good as people say. I just wish it had more entertainment value, honestly. It's too dry. Kind of like my problem with Kara no Kyoukai.
I also feel like if anime were as big here then as it is today, in other words, if we had access to hundreds of anime coming out each year immediately, Ghost in the Shell would just be an underground thing. A lot of better anime came out that year. |
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