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Re:CREATORS (TV).


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One-Eye



Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Posts: 2261
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:56 pm Reply with quote
FenixFiesta wrote:
I am almost certain our White Haired Military garbed girls creator... spoiler[Was the suicide girl from episode one, so what happens when God is Dead?]

What if white haired military girl spoiler[drove her creator to suicide? She already seems to have tried to manipulate the other characters], I might not put it past her.

Quote:
If you were to meet your creator, would you despise them or thank them if they granted you various hardships to overcome or forced into a soul crushing situation, what if you were the designated villain to be hated?
I think Guts or Casca from Berserk might not have a favorable view of their creator.

I'm with Blood- on this one. So far its kinda of meh? I'm willing to give it another episode or two to see if they actually have anything interesting going on.
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FenixFiesta



Joined: 22 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:18 pm Reply with quote
ep 2 obs continued
Another amusing part is the confirmation of the "older demographic periphery" for Magical Girls shows, Mamika attacks first because she is assumedly following her "old script" too closely from her origin show and following the logic that Mamika herself is the main Heroine following the Pretty Cure-esque show logic that a fight scene will resolve the episodes tension and everyone could become friends after, it of course does NOT work out.

It is amusing that Meteora calls for Celestia to restrain herself, clearly even though Celestia lacking her source material Vogelchevalier is outgunned by Mamika, Celestia could have easily ended the encounter through much more fatal measures as Mamika is not attuned to actual fighting, this is likely why Mamika panics and unleashes her final named attack as she was scared of whatever Celestia's next move might be.

As for our newcomer, he looks more like an SNK final boss than any other archetype (would explain how he can arbitrarily parry what looked like a final attack), but just as well can be shown inaccurate for what his source material might be.
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Chrono1000





PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:59 pm Reply with quote
FenixFiesta wrote:
I am almost certain our White Haired Military garbed girls creator... spoiler[Was the suicide girl from episode one, so what happens when God is Dead?].
My guess is that the military girl is spoiler[the creation of Sota's dead sister which would explain how she knew him and where he lived. Also based on how she talked about her creator in episode one while trying to capture Selejia I am guessing that she was friends with her.]

FenixFiesta wrote:
Heroine following the Pretty Cure-esque show logic that a fight scene will resolve the episodes tension and everyone could become friends after, it of course does NOT work out.
It does feel like the show was gently poking fun at the magical girl genre in this episode. spoiler[The magical girl Mamika goes all out with her attacks in the middle of the city while everyone else is basically trying to limit the damage. She is a good person but she comes from a child friendly world.]
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Chrono1000





PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:36 am Reply with quote
One-Eye wrote:
What if white haired military girl spoiler[drove her creator to suicide? She already seems to have tried to manipulate the other characters], I might not put it past her.
spoiler[The way that she talks her creator in episode 1 doesn't carry any of the hostility that she has when talking about other creators. Also the opening sequence of the show shows her standing alone in a broken down building. Unless that is a red herring I think that indicate a tragic backstory.]
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Galap
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:29 am Reply with quote
I'm pretty impressed with the fact that Meteora is entertaining multiple possiblities for what could be going on that fit the information that they have now. Doing that kind of thing is very rare in fiction, where you see a character really trying to systematically figure out what's going on and postulate multiple possibilities for it. Usually they just don't think about it. It shows that unlike many other characters in the archetype she's coming from, Meteora is actually very intelligent and rational.

When Meteora says her world has 'enough information to construct worlds':
does this mean that in addition to different laws of physics they have different laws of information theory? Differences in modes of thought that can exist? I think that's also the explanation of why the repair magic didn't work. Destruction is a lot easier than creation and a lot simpler. Maybe the relative simplicities in her universe enable something like repair magic but ours definitely doesn't. It's interesting to see that some of the magic still works, like Silesia flying or Mamika's heart blasts, so I guess that implies that the information theory stuff is a deeper and more fundamental difference than just 'physics'. Actually Meteora says this I think.

I've seen a similar concept explored before in Vernor Vinge's A Fire Upon the Deep. (Read the setting section for the relevant info.) Basically in the book the types of intelligence or information complexity that can exist is different depending on where you are in space. Apparently, here it's different based on what world you're from. It makes sense that the world that can create or refer to all the others must ahve a very high information density and high propensity for recursion and chaotic behavior.

Of all the characters so far, Mamika seems the least self-aware. Well actually I don't think that's quite right. It's just that since she's from a work intended for children her priors are a lot farther from the nature of the world she currently finds herself in, so she may have some harder lessons to learn. I get the impression she'll wrap her head around new modes of thinking pretty quickly and turn out OK. It's kind of funny since her world probably was very similar culturally and technologically to modern Japan, but she's the one having the most trouble adapting because there are fundamental differences in the laws of cause and effect and differences in human behavior. It's interesting that Mamika is angry at her creators for creating a world with so much suffering, seeing as she comes from what appears on the surface to be a mostly tame kids show. I guess it's commentary on the fact that children's media often has a lot of dark elements despite cartoonishness or lacking onscreen serious injury and death. Or maybe she's very sensitive as part of her character personality and she'll come to think her world isn't so bad after comparing it to its alternatives. It's also interesting that the conflict between Mamika and Silesia was of a sort that sadly happens all too frequently; I've seen that kind of thing go down. Often the most dangerous person (as in most likely to cause injury to themself and others) is someone who has good physical power along with little experience and skill, along with a lack of understanding that there are consequences to their actions. So they're going to start shit, not really understand that the other side will shoot back or that their actions can really hurt people, and then not be able to figure out how to back down safely or due to their lack of experience. That's when things can really go wrong.

I'm still really liking Silesia. She's pretty hard to get a read on, in that she makes little statements or gestures, like clenching her fist when Mamika is talking about the morality of the 'gods', where you might have a general idea of what she's thinking, but that's only a guess at best. She is a bit cryptic and to me that makes her seem very real. Along these lines, what was she going to do to Mamika after she gave her speech about having to follow through on displays of force and how by realistic and 'adult' standards Mamika's behavior was pretty barbaric? Was she going to kill Mamika? Just rough her up a little or scare her? It's pretty unclear what exactly she was going to do. I don't think I've seen anything where the main hero was this subtly crypitc. I want to learn more about her.


Last edited by Galap on Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
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Location: Brisbane, Australia
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:07 am Reply with quote
Episode 2

Firstly, the OP fricken fantastic, another example of Sawano's awesome skills, it has me jumping back to some of his past songs from KlK, I have tended to really get into its OST.

The best part of the episode was most certainly the magical girl bits, specifically quickly noticing that the world around her is not playing by magical girl show rules as the collateral damage becomes quite dangerous. And then it gets into her suddenly realising that there is blood, something alien to what her bombastic moves should cause and she starts freaking out, and got a bit scary that she was about to go Nanoha right there. It is a cool concept that a child friendly starts to kind of unravel when suddenly faced with themes that do not align to her own nature. And ironic that she is calling out creators for having her world be filled with conflict when she has no idea of "reality".

Galap wrote:
When Meteora says her world has 'enough information to construct worlds':
does this mean that in addition to different laws of physics they have different laws of information theory? like a fire upon the deep? differences in modes of thought that can exist? I think that's also the explanation of why the repair magic didn't work. Destruction is a lot easier than creation and a lot simpler. Maybe the relative simplicities in her universe enable something like repair magic but ours definitely doesn't. It's interesting to see that some of the magic still works, like Silesia flying or Mamika's heart blasts, so I guess that implies that the information theory stuff is a deeper and more fundamental difference than just 'physics'. Actually Meteora says this I think.

Yeah, I think that the implication is that their world's are built on the human mind and one's ability to understand it, so there is a relative simplicity to it. While here/there in the real world of creators, the general nature of the world itself goes into a complicated nature can very well be beyond what humans can fully understand. And thus magic that could return things to a prior state in the simpler worlds, cannot effect the creator world because it is far too complex. Creating flames, explosives and magical walls is simple enough for their nature to create an influence into this world, but it cannot change the general nature of things that we can barely wrap our minds around with "theories".

Meteora was kind of getting into what I had thought in trying to understand what the deal was with say Log Horizon, whether the world was created by the fiction, or an overlap between the worlds happens to meet at the point of fiction.
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Chrono1000





PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:20 pm Reply with quote
I thought the interaction with the light novel author was well done. He is a bit desperate and is the type of guy that would go out to meet a woman that emailed him because she sent him a picture. While he is surprised when the fight starts he knows that Mamika is going to win it.

Galap wrote:
Of all the characters so far, Mamika seems the least self-aware. Well actually I don't think that's quite right. It's just that since she's from a work intended for children her priors are a lot farther from the nature of the world she currently finds herself in, so she may have some harder lessons to learn. I get the impression she'll wrap her head around new modes of thinking pretty quickly and turn out OK. It's kind of funny since her world probably was very similar culturally and technologically to modern Japan, but she's the one having the most trouble adapting because there are fundamental differences in the laws of cause and effect and differences in human behavior.
Mamika is a child and she comes from a magical girl show where people rarely bleed and where the buildings return to normal after a huge battle. As DuskyPredator mentions that is why she was freaking out when she noticed that Selesia was really hurt and that the building she blasted was still damaged.

Galap wrote:
I'm still really liking Silesia. She's pretty hard to get a read on, in that she makes little statements or gestures, like clenching her fist when Mamika is talking about the morality of the 'gods', where you might have a general idea of what she's thinking, but that's only a guess at best. She is a bit cryptic and to me that makes her seem very real. Along these lines, what was she going to do to Mamika after she gave her speech about having to follow through on displays of force and how by realistic and 'adult' standards Mamika's behavior was pretty barbaric? Was she going to kill Mamika? Just rough her up a little or scare her? It's pretty unclear what exactly she was going to do. I don't think I've seen anything where the main hero was this subtly crypitc. I want to learn more about her.
Selesia is a good person but like Mamika she is flawed. I think she expects the battle to end with one of them dead because that is how battles end in her world. That she was telling Mamika to remember her advice was because she thought she was about to die. Both characters are still figuratively trapped in their own world and are having trouble adjusting to the real world.
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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:02 pm Reply with quote
Chrono1000 wrote:
Selesia is a good person but like Mamika she is flawed. I think she expects the battle to end with one of them dead because that is how battles end in her world. That she was telling Mamika to remember her advice was because she thought she was about to die. Both characters are still figuratively trapped in their own world and are having trouble adjusting to the real world.

I was also thinking specifically of what age levels their work is for, which I think is kind of reflected in their ages. Mamika is a child meant for children, and thus think of easy answers. While Selesia is more of an angsty teen made for teens, even if she looks together on things, she is more made for teenagers who have come off of such childish and are all too happy to show that kids are wrong because they know more of the world, and actually get a bit of revenge to show them they are wrong.

Yet the true mature thing that hopefully an adult that has things together would do would be to try and de-escalate the situation, that trying to throw that you were right even if you continue the conflict is not a way to handle something like that. But that is also hoping for a bit, because you might even get the worse ones that lean even further as work for adults who would want to blow off steam.
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Galap
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:02 pm Reply with quote
Chrono1000 wrote:
I think she expects the battle to end with one of them dead because that is how battles end in her world. That she was telling Mamika to remember her advice was because she thought she was about to die.


I didn't think of that. That's an interesting idea and it seems to fit. Definitely a possiblility. I like it.

DuskyPredator wrote:
I was also thinking specifically of what age levels their work is for, which I think is kind of reflected in their ages. Mamika is a child meant for children, and thus think of easy answers. While Selesia is more of an angsty teen made for teens, even if she looks together on things, she is more made for teenagers who have come off of such childish and are all too happy to show that kids are wrong because they know more of the world, and actually get a bit of revenge to show them they are wrong.

Yet the true mature thing that hopefully an adult that has things together would do would be to try and de-escalate the situation, that trying to throw that you were right even if you continue the conflict is not a way to handle something like that. But that is also hoping for a bit, because you might even get the worse ones that lean even further as work for adults who would want to blow off steam.


Based on her appearance, I'd peg Silesia to be mid 20s. Something about the eyes, and the way her musculature is filled in. You may be right though. You're right that she wasn't so clear on her intentions and could have given Mamika a more obvious avenue of safe backoff, but on the other hand I think she recognized Mamika would be very dangerous if she didn't learn certain lessons immediately.
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leatherhead333



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:07 pm Reply with quote
Wow....

I don't think I've ever had so much exposition shoved in my face at once since The irregular at high school! I mean damn. The first half was just explaining a theories (some of which that aren't probably theories) of how the world works with random stuff in the background. Spread that shit out through the story geez! >:/

Also I kind of call bullshit on the worlds characters are from technically already existing and apparently humans ended up writing stuff that is exactly the same which is how they are connected (even the characters within called bullshit) if that is in fact how the lore of this show works. Miss bookwarm even brought up the possibility of characters within their world having stories that could have their own worlds but for some reason it isn't multilayered. What does that even mean? I assume that just because a book exists in a fictional world doesn't mean it carries the same depth of info as the real world because a creator might not describe in full what is contained in the book. But what if they do? What a if a creator does create a story within a story that has the same amount of information as a book in the real world? And that information resonates with someone reading that story which causes them to try to create a story? Doesn't that mean it technically exists already?! Gah so confusing >.>.

Adding onto that wouldn't that mean these people technically don't have creators and the title should be changed to Re: Editors since they are influencing a world that already exists? Razz

Anyways random magical girl enters the scene! Probably the thing I liked most about the episode was her coming to terms with the laws of the real world and meeting someone on pretty much the complete opposite side of the spectrum, a girl from a world full of fighting. The main slip up however is that the anime seems to be moving way to fast for it's own good. At first she brings up wanting creators to change the bad things that happen in the worlds. That's cool and all. But since Celestia immediately denounces the claim it's kind of pointless (yeah she clenches her fist but that could have just been her getting angry thinking at the magical thinking her world simply nothing but killing). Yes she probably does so because the villain told her that but if Miss bookworms theory is right it's not like what she said is a total lie. Plus if Celestia has suffered some heavy loses in her world (which seems to be implied) I'm kind of surprised she's so quick to ignore what she's saying. I feel like more like a bit more contemplation would have sufficed but we had to move into a fight scene so there isn't any time for that.

When the magical girl actually wounds Celestia I feel like that's a good emotional moment and had that been allowed to set I would have loved it. But no time for that, we have to introduce a new character that I already get the feeling I'm not going like! This anime is full of cool ideas but the execution so far is lacking imo.

Either way it looks like Souta's apartment is going to be full of freaks. Also I'm going to put money on it now that the white haired girl is a creation that Souta made when he was younger. The half showing of his picture is a common screenwriter tactic. Either that or he'll "edit" her world and come into the real world. Betting 20 internet cookies! Wink
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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:04 pm Reply with quote
leatherhead333 wrote:
I don't think I've ever had so much exposition shoved in my face at once since The irregular at high school! I mean damn. The first half was just explaining a theories (some of which that aren't probably theories) of how the world works with random stuff in the background. Spread that shit out through the story geez! >:/

Also I kind of call bullshit on the worlds characters are from technically already existing and apparently humans ended up writing stuff that is exactly the same which is how they are connected (even the characters within called bullshit) if that is in fact how the lore of this show works. Miss bookwarm even brought up the possibility of characters within their world having stories that could have their own worlds but for some reason it isn't multilayered. What does that even mean? I assume that just because a book exists in a fictional world doesn't mean it carries the same depth of info as the real world because a creator might not describe in full what is contained in the book. But what if they do? What a if a creator does create a story within a story that has the same amount of information as a book in the real world? And that information resonates with someone reading that story which causes them to try to create a story? Doesn't that mean it technically exists already?! Gah so confusing >.>.

It was just a theory, the sort of thing you were complaining about earlier. A character making a theory does in a show does not mean what they are saying is the truth, but maybe to highlight certain aspects of the show to make it clear that they were not just not thought about. And the already existing worlds theory could fit into infinite universes where there is a world of anything could happen, and thus the writer making the story happens to anchor a world the exact same. It does not mean it is the most likely, but clearly she is pretty much a scientist of things that are not so easy to nail down (magic).

The whole world being within a book as it is, kind of goes into a being like "if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?". Normally the characters in the story could not observe those above to know if they are created, and the character above cannot normally know the one bellow has some sort of aspect of independence. If the creator world made a sort of fleshed out story that appeared within a different story, the perhaps the rules mean it already exists as a story within the creator world, the book might just act as a point they might theoretically overlap.

leatherhead333 wrote:
Adding onto that wouldn't that mean these people technically don't have creators and the title should be changed to Re: Editors since they are influencing a world that already exists? Razz

Well apparently the characters in the show are not aware of the show they are in. As it is many people make the stupid cinema sin like thing of saying "Ding, roll credits" the second a character says such a thing as their series name.

leatherhead333 wrote:
Anyways random magical girl enters the scene! Probably the thing I liked most about the episode was her coming to terms with the laws of the real world and meeting someone on pretty much the complete opposite side of the spectrum, a girl from a world full of fighting. The main slip up however is that the anime seems to be moving way to fast for it's own good. At first she brings up wanting creators to change the bad things that happen in the worlds. That's cool and all. But since Celestia immediately denounces the claim it's kind of pointless (yeah she clenches her fist but that could have just been her getting angry thinking at the magical thinking her world simply nothing but killing). Yes she probably does so because the villain told her that but if Miss bookworms theory is right it's not like what she said is a total lie. Plus if Celestia has suffered some heavy loses in her world (which seems to be implied) I'm kind of surprised she's so quick to ignore what she's saying. I feel like more like a bit more contemplation would have sufficed but we had to move into a fight scene so there isn't any time for that.

Well perhaps she was quick to come to the conclusion that she only exists herself because of the way the story was, that if it was all sunshine and rainbows then any way she would exist would be all sunshine and it would not be herself, but someone who only looked like her. That leaving thoughts that the absolute authority of making a happy world is up to decisions of the creator is removing the agency she has felt that she had her entire life, that one should never have to work for anything.

leatherhead333 wrote:
Either way it looks like Souta's apartment is going to be full of freaks. Also I'm going to put money on it now that the white haired girl is a creation that Souta made when he was younger. The half showing of his picture is a common screenwriter tactic.

You are not the only one thinking that, but his dead sister is also aspect that people are looking at. That the two of them were creating stories, and so far it looks to be leaning towards having him finish the story he has had unfinished.
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Stark700



Joined: 30 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:10 pm Reply with quote
Episode 3:

Well apparently, the episode had Selestia being saved by Yuya although I suspect that his intentions are much more than just being heroic. In the meantime, this show continuously to develop its storytelling to allow freedom for characters to be themselves. Perhaps freedom could be a theme of this show? Hmm.

Everyone also seems to want to meet their makers. Not much action this episode which is probably fitting as a breath of fresh air. I still wonder what that mysterious girl wants though as another is one appears in their world.

Also based on what Yuya said, the military girl was with an "old guy"? Could the one promo the promo poster/OP song be allied with her? Also, I'm pretty sure military girl has a connection with Souta. Speaking of Souta, I am disappointed by his presence in this show so far. Until they reveal more about his involvement in this story, he feels like a side character.


Last edited by Stark700 on Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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FenixFiesta



Joined: 22 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:59 pm Reply with quote
I think enough information has been divulged from our mysterious Military Princess, there is almost no doubt that she is the creation of the suicide girl and that girl's name was Setsuna.
MP was likely a mary sue stylized character and was made with the purpose of hating on Setsuna's current life.

Mamika will still likely side with MP, though certainly Mamika will not be so easily siding with the concept of destroying the "land of the gods".

As for Yuuya Mirokuji, his personality is a variant of every other "lone wolf, and I do what I want" personality from a fighting game, Iori Yagami from SNK series comes to mind but I am certain an experienced player could think of dozens of other variants.
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leatherhead333



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:11 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
It was just a theory, the sort of thing you were complaining about earlier. A character making a theory does in a show does not mean what they are saying is the truth, but maybe to highlight certain aspects of the show to make it clear that they were not just not thought about. And the already existing worlds theory could fit into infinite universes where there is a world of anything could happen, and thus the writer making the story happens to anchor a world the exact same. It does not mean it is the most likely, but clearly she is pretty much a scientist of things that are not so easy to nail down (magic).

The whole world being within a book as it is, kind of goes into a being like "if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?". Normally the characters in the story could not observe those above to know if they are created, and the character above cannot normally know the one bellow has some sort of aspect of independence. If the creator world made a sort of fleshed out story that appeared within a different story, the perhaps the rules mean it already exists as a story within the creator world, the book might just act as a point they might theoretically overlap


I know it's a theory I'm just saying if it were true I don't buy into it. However it's clear that she is the most knowledgeable person of the group (even with the extra people joining the party that probably won't change). Plus she had some interaction with villain already. The anime spent a considerable amount of time explaining her reasoning and from the type of show this is I feel like it was a "get most of the lore out of the way so we can get into the action" kind of deal. I'm welcome to being wrong about that it's just feeling.

Quote:
Well apparently the characters in the show are not aware of the show they are in. As it is many people make the stupid cinema sin like thing of saying "Ding, roll credits" the second a character says such a thing as their series name.


You can't blame the awesomeness of Cinemasins for the fans making their jokes even more redundant can you? Wink

Quote:
Well perhaps she was quick to come to the conclusion that she only exists herself because of the way the story was, that if it was all sunshine and rainbows then any way she would exist would be all sunshine and it would not be herself, but someone who only looked like her. That leaving thoughts that the absolute authority of making a happy world is up to decisions of the creator is removing the agency she has felt that she had her entire life, that one should never have to work for anything.


That's a bit of a leap from what I was trying to say. I don't think she'd ask for a world where there was no conflict but as I stated what if there was a friend or family member she lost that she wanted back? A writer could just put in a deus ex and bring them back to life. That's certainly something I'd want. I admit we don't know much about her world so maybe she hasn't had that happen yet so hopefully we get some info on that.

Quote:
You are not the only one thinking that, but his dead sister is also aspect that people are looking at. That the two of them were creating stories, and so far it looks to be leaning towards having him finish the story he has had unfinished.


That's also possible (in fact I actually forgot about the sister with everything I'm watching this season). I can't help but he'll end up creating a world with all these characters in it. Writers are after all inspired by their experiences so if he continues his story they'll likely influence his work.
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DuskyPredator



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:05 am Reply with quote
Stark700 wrote:
Well apparently, the episode had Selestia being saved by Yuya although I suspect that his intentions are much more than just being heroic.

I think that he largely gave off the impression that he cares a lot about freedom. Which although I am not entirely familiar with the sort of thing he came from I would not be surprised if that earlier materialised as him fighting against authority in his old world, but here might have him doing what he did from fighting against expectations. He has fought back against Military Uniform Princess because he sees her doing what she has to recruit him as another form of control. That Magical Girl causing that fight to get the others to do what they want as similar wants to throw in the face of that authority figure. So I think that he is fighting against people thinking he would want to have that control over his world, that right now he is out of the control anyway so he will just do what he wants.

FenixFiesta wrote:
MP was likely a mary sue stylized character and was made with the purpose of hating on Setsuna's current life.

This does sound like a likely component, that she is the culmination of a character from a creator who was rejected by society. I would not be surprise to learn he drew her in the past for Setsuna.

The show does feel like it has gone out of its way to get right on the question of details like testing if they could be altered so easily, that even the artist would be interested in things she would not have put detail in. I noticed a kind of funny part of the ED which seems to have a few of the characters come across cosplayers, of which Meteora meets one of herself. I also kind of feel that it is moving from just being about authors and artists being important for characters, and the fans can also.

And, ah, I think that I might go ahead and say that I can see why Meteora might fit into the popular with fans thing. I like her character so far. My heart is a taken by short white haired, magic girl, deadpan, philosophically minded, good hearted, bookworm magic girl.
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