Forum - View topicDiversity in anime.
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Alan45
 Village Elder Posts: 9840 Location: Virginia |
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@ChibiKangaroo
Anime characters don't look like Caucasians, they look like other anime characters. That look is very clearly dependent on current fashions and has changed over the years. They are sufficiently abstracted from reality that Caucasians can self identify as well as the Japanese. Basically they aren't really human. At least they look well, which is more than you can say for most US cartoons. Part of the problem of calling for more diversity is that most Japanese have very little experience with people of other races. As a result they tend to rely on information that they have from US media which supports stereotypes both as to appearance and personalities. Diversity done poorly is going to be much worse than none at all. They other thing I feel should be mentioned is that any change needs to come from within the Japanese industry and audience. Changes made in response to outside pressure or worse, outside money are likely to produce something that is not anime. If I wanted to watch US cartoons (or Chinese) I would. What I don't want are shows that are imitations of US productions, poorly done by a Japanese crew that really doesn't know what they are doing. |
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Touma
 Posts: 2651 Location: Colorado, USA |
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I think that what you illustrated is identity rather than diversity. That was done so that we can quickly and easily tell which character is doing what. As for the questions, I do not think that anime needs more diversity. I am not arguing against it, I just do not feel that it is necessary. If it does happen the Japanese must make the decision. I already watch a lot of anime with characters that are not Japanese. I watch a lot with characters that are not human. I think that others have given enough examples. |
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ChibiKangaroo
 Posts: 2941 |
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Yes, most anime characters do look like Caucasians, albeit with more exaggerated eyes, but it's no mistake that blonde and red hair are two of the most popular hair colors for anime characters who are supposed to be particularly beautiful. These are not hair color that are native to Japanese. Then we have the candy colored hair characters, who absolutely do not look Japanese in any possible way. Again, they are more or less just lazy character models where hair color is used to identify the character (and often their attributes).
My point is, anime has not been "Japanese" in the way that they depict the characters of most shows for a long time, so people using that as an excuse for why there should be no ethnic diversity in anime are way off base. |
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Alan45
Village Elder Posts: 9840 Location: Virginia |
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No, they are simply caricatures of "people". The Japanese see them a Japanese and others see the as, well, whatever they expect. The majority of hair colors are not seen in nature any more than the big eyes and vestigial noses. Blonds seem to be to be mostly mixed, Caucasian or otherworldly beings. The idea that they may have picked up some US standards of beauty does not change the fact that they see as Japanese anyone who is supposed to be Japanese. Animation worldwide uses caricatures because realistic human features involve too much detail to sustain through an entire show.
Because they are using caricatures in the first place makes it hard for them to draw other races. This is because they have to look different from the standard anime person. As noted above, blond hair (and blue eyes) is used to denote mixed Japanese/European people even though this is seldom actually true. They have a problem with people of color simply because other than changing skin tone all they can do is exaggerate perceived features which seldom works out well. If you want a diverse cast in live action, that is easy, you just hire people from the appropriate racial groups and hope your writers don't get too carried away in the dialog. You can be guilty of exaggerating behavior but you can't be guilty of exaggerated features since they are real. However to do this in animation, you have to understand the different groups well enough to draw them without resorting to stereotypes. Black Lagoon is about the only show where I saw this handled well and even there their pseudo Nazis were a bit off. As I said above, poorly done diversity is going to cause problems. It has to be realistic, which would probably require realistic depiction of Japanese characters as well. With all the best will in the world I think that most Japanese studios can't carry this off. The writers and character designers simply lack the experience with other races necessary. |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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Lol, so anyone who they decide is Japanese is Japanese, even if they look nothing like a Japanese person. Such a hilarious cop out. You're really just admitting what I've said is true, i.e. that anime has created character models that are caucasian but they just give them Japanese names. You just think that is a legitimate showing of Japanese ethnicity. I don't, at least not in the context of this conversation. Like I said, people can't have it both ways. If you want to claim that ethnicity in anime absolutely must be Japanese in all ways because its "for them," then you have to start calling bullshit on the obviously caucasian character models that are used in anime. Similarly, you need to start calling BS on all of these "half Japanese half Russian" or "half Japanese half English" characters who routinely pop up in shows and are only used as an excuse to exaggerate the caucasian features.
Again, you are just confirming what I've already said. I agree, anime has been lazy in wanting to just recycle these character models that they have been using and just change the hair color. Doing something to show ethnic diversity would probably require more effort unless they simply changed skin tone rather than hair color (which some shows have actually done, but very few). I think it is time for anime to be a bit more creative with the character designs. These copy/pasted designs are something that is routinely criticized by anime critics across the board. |
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Alan45
Village Elder Posts: 9840 Location: Virginia |
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@ChibiKangaroo
I think we are simply going to have to disagree on this issue. Given the time pressures the anime industry currently works under, I doubt a greater degree of realism is actually possible except in isolated shows. I really do not understand this impulse to "fix" the anime industry, to tell them what they have to do to make it better. I got into anime because I like what I see. I do realize that a lot of plot elements and art work is repetitive but I accept it as part of what I like. My idea is watch what you want and don't watch what you don't care for. If changes in the anime industry move it away from me, so be it, I'll find something else to entertain me. It is not as though anyone is listening to what we say here anyway. |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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It's not as if no one reads these boards. Even just other anime fans participate, and I do think if fans started raising issues (especially at conventions) people will start to hear it. Keep in mind that we are living in the internet age here and a single video taken of an airline passenger being dragged off a United Airlines flight in Chicago was viewed and commented on by more than 100 million people in China. I don't know how long you've been into anime, but perhaps you aren't jaded on the recycled sameness (yet), but I think eventually you will be. I got into anime for the cool ideas and stories. I didn't get into it because characters all look a certain way and can be quickly adjusted by changing their hair color. Unfortunately, I think good storywriting has been de-emphasized lately in efforts to focus on mindless repetition of tropes favored by some otaku. The character models being gradually harmonized into one, single model that is used for most shows is a side-effect of that re-focusing, and I certainly don't think it is a good thing. |
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Alan45
Village Elder Posts: 9840 Location: Virginia |
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ChibiKangaroo
I really, really doubt any Japanese executive or director is making decisions based on anonymous posting on this board or on social media (which seems to be killing this forum). They may to some extent be listening to US money from the likes of Crunchyroll and Funimation but all indications are that their primary concern is the Japanese market. I actually hope they don't listen too much to either US or Chinese money because we could end up with shows that don't please any group.
I doubt it. It will be 20 years this August and so far I'm doing fine. I'm a bit tired of streaming on a weekly basis, but that just put me back to my existing collection. I think we are getting just as much new and different anime as we ever did. It is just that since we now have almost immediate access to almost everything we are drowning in it. I think we have a difference in perception. You are seeing all the repetition and it bothers you. I on the other hand concentrate on the different shows we get each season and on the familiar one that does an old tale "just right". The nice thing about getting "everything" is that we get to make our own decisions and not have shows hand picked for the average fan. I should point out that the "diversity" that is the core of this thread is not the same thing as better writing and animation. They could easily incorporate diverse characters in the same old show and could just as easily produce something different and interesting with nothing but a Japanese cast. |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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But they haven't been doing either, for the most part. They have been "playing it safe" in the ways that you like. That's fine, but it won't last forever. Sooner or later someone is going to come around and start doing what they are doing, and doing it better. Maybe it will be the Chinese, who certainly would have a huge interest in getting a foothold in the anime market. Or maybe some American studio will decide to go on a hostile takeover. Saying that anime should just stay the same forever and not innovate is a recipe for long term problems. |
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Alan45
Village Elder Posts: 9840 Location: Virginia |
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I never said I don't want anime to change. In the years I have followed anime it has changed a great deal. This is not always obvious from year to year, but looking back the change has been substantial. Some changes are technical, some artistic. Character designs are different, story lines are different, the current emphasis is on TV instead of OVAs and so on.
Also I never said I liked all anime, nor do I feel shows are good simply by reason of being anime. Back when I started I had to pick and choose among available shows to find what I want and I still do. The main difference is that to some extent I get to try the shows on line before I commit to buying them now. What I don't want to see change is the basic nature of anime. That is shows rooted in Japanese culture and cultural history, written and directed by Japanese and intended for a Japanese audience. Anime specifically intended to be international in nature is likely to lose its soul. The infusion of Chinese money may ultimately produce something interesting and of value. A mixture of Chinese storytelling with Japanese technical expertise may be a good thing. I haven't seen any of what has come out so far but the critical and fan response has not been good. It is, however, a trend that will continue. US money is also likely to change things, if only in determining what shows get made. What I fear is an attempt to make anime more Western friendly. Given that US studios already have a lock on what the average US consumer wants I don't see anime competing there. You will not see a "hostile takeover" by a US company. What would they buy, a couple of studios? There would be nothing to prevent the artistic staff from simply moving on. US studios have used Japanese anime studios to produce work for hire. A US origin story intended for a US audience. It has already been done several times. What you get is anime with a foot note, something technically made in Japan without the elements that make for good anime. The basic question in this thread is about diversity framed in terms of racial and ethnic diversity. This is something that takes a light and expert touch in order to avoid negative stereotypes in both appearance and dialog. As diverse as the US is, animation studios here still have problems with this and make embarrassing mistakes. Japan is not a very diverse country. Neither its writers or characters designers are likely to have much experience with diverse ethnicities. Putting in diversity for its own sake is likely to lead to disaster. What you seem to be asking for is more diversity in terms of storylines and character designs. This probably could be accomplished but needs to be something the anime industry arrives at on its own. Actually it already is happening and has always been present if you are willing to pick and choose instead of just looking at the entire output and claiming it is all the same. Do you really want the entire anime industry to march to your drum? Me, I'm happy if I can find two or three shows a season that I really like and another few I enjoy. If you can't find that much, you need a new hobby. |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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Two or three shows a season that aren't as bad as the rest is how I see that, and it's not good enough for me. Like I said, I just don't accept that whole argument about how anime is currently revolving around Japanese ethnicity with the way that they depict the characters. Culture, yes, but ethnicity, no. I think pretending that anime characters are not heavily Europeanized is to stick one's head in the sand. So I don't think there is any reason to keep saying that ethnicity of Japanese people vis a vis anime characters has any impact on the discussion. I feel like tht is an argument that seeks to ignore the realities of how anime characters are currently portrayed.
I do want to see everything elevated, and I think the character designs and art are a beginning point, and I do think if they spent more time coming up with new and diverse character models, it would improve other things. |
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Alan45
Village Elder Posts: 9840 Location: Virginia |
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@ChibiKangaroo
On what you call the Europeanization of anime characters, I have expressed my disagreement and tried to explain my opinion. I will not repeat myself. I do not accept your argument. If two or three not so bad shows are all you can find each season you really need to find a different hobby. Unless you are secretly a highly placed Japanese anime director or possibly an executive on a production committee I really don't see you having much chance of changing the anime industry. If you are simply a non Japanese anime fan, your chances are none. You are welcome to try though, regardless, this is not the place to do that. |
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Stuart Smith
 Posts: 1298 |
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A less pestimistic assessment would be to point out those traits are generally rare in Japanese people, which is probably why they are also rare in anime. Japan's obesity rate is about a tenth of ours, so fat characters being rare is just a reflection of their culture. Personally, I'd rather not watch a show with ugly characters.
I think the topic of people saying anime characters look white stems from ignorance of cultural portrayal. You cite blond characters, but either forgot or don't know a stereotype is delinquents or troublemakers dye their hair blond to stand out. Nor does it address the fact Caucasians don't have natural blue or pink hair either. There's more subtle difference like jaw and nose size as well that seperates white characters from typical Japanese characters. The same way people assume a dark skinned character is black, but probably doesn't know the depiction of Osakan and Okinawan Japanese people. Regardless, there's something troubling at seeing white people tell Japan that their characters aren't actually Japanese, despite Japan identifying them as such. Maybe that's why you see those Asian people who are vocally against western cosplay with those elaborate charts and graphs. I imagine it's pretty imperialistic to try to co-op a country's media, let alone tell them what a Japanese character should look like. Are cartoon characters not Caucasian because they have heads as big as their bodies or only four fingers instead of 5, which is unrealistic? -Stuart Smith |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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The Europeanization of anime characters is a well known issue that has been debated for years in many forums. You can pretend like it is not an issue, but it is and will continue to be for a long time because anime is so used to copying what came before in order to keep milking the cow. Indeed, whenever an anime tries to make their characters appear "more Japanese" that tends to create a big hubbub among fans and critics. This issue is much more complex than you try to make it.
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Alan45
Village Elder Posts: 9840 Location: Virginia |
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@ChibiKangaroo
If that is your belief you are welcome to it. I do think that the idea that Japanese anime fans see anime set in Japan as entirely peopled by European looking individuals is both ludicrous and a bit demeaning. Even if it were true, it would be a problem for the Japanese to address. As non Japanese we have no say in the matter. |
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