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duotrouble



Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 5
Location: Atlanta

PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 7:57 pm Reply with quote
Back to the original question asked, I'm fairly neutral as I'll watch and like both. If I'm lying in bed getting ready to fall asleep to my favorite anime, I prefer dub so I don't have to wear my glasses. Razz

Honestly, I consider all anime as being dub since the Japanese have to dub it so they can air it. Wink I'm someone who watches anime in whatever language I can. I've watched DBZ now in 4 languages - Japanese, English, Spanish and Portuguese. Grunts and groans all pretty much sound the same regardless of the language. Wink
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HyugaHinata



Joined: 25 Jun 2005
Posts: 1875

PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 9:48 pm Reply with quote
Mohawk52 wrote:
HyugaHinata wrote:

That's evil. Making people learn kanji just to be a citizen. Evil or Very Mad It's not like native speakers remember all 2000.
No more evil than having to at least learn to read and write level 1 English in order to become a British citizen. What's the point of becoming a citizen of a country if you aren't willing to learn the language needed to live and work successfully there?


Because kanji is a relic. Cavemen made more sense (which was probably why China wiped them out - they were jealous). If EVERY OTHER LANGUAGE in the world can survive without kanji, then so can Japan. You don't need to know 2000 kanjis to survive in Japan. You don't need ANY, because furigana is very versatile.

Masayume wrote:
That's evil. Making people learn kanji just to be a citizen. Evil or Very Mad It's not like native speakers remember all 2000.


God I didn't exactly count but there was something like... 50 some odd pages with at least 20 verbs per page?

Interesting. Can you give us some of the more obscure verbs they had you learn?

Masayume wrote:
Not so much a masochist as I just want to be able to read. Don't ask me why I enjoy learning kanji but I just do somehow.


If you want to read, use furigana. You know something's wrong when students choose to get molested rather than learning kanji.

As to why you enjoy it, well, perhaps your masochism is under the surface. Wink In any case, Voldemort can always use more Death Eaters. Twisted Evil

Masayume wrote:
As mentioned by the person above me it may seem evil, but even if native speakers don't remember every single character perfectly it's still important to have that kind of knowledge especially if you want to be a citizen. Besides, after you've been there long enough to allow you to start looking into being a citizen I would hope you'd know a rather large amount of kanji.


I'd rather campaign for kanji to be removed from the language entirely, and for something useful to fill the syllabus. Something like biology.
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sj21



Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Posts: 312

PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 7:40 am Reply with quote
Okay, this is kinda a qeustion and a disscusion if you think this happens. Well, do you think that sometimes the english dub doesn't translate the name correctly.

Because in the galaxy railways the main characters name is Manabu Yuuki and they pronounce it in the english dub as "Yu-Uki".

Does anybody know if thats correct because with japanese spelling it would normally just be yuuki. Not Yu-Uki.

And has this ever happened to you.

[Edit: This really should be in the Dub vs. Sub thread as it's pretty much right on that topic and that thread is already present and active. - Keonyn]
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abunai
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Joined: 05 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 10:15 am Reply with quote
sj21 wrote:
Okay, this is kinda a qeustion and a disscusion if you think this happens. Well, do you think that sometimes the english dub doesn't translate the name correctly

Because in the galaxy railways the main characters name is Manabu Yuuki and they pronounce it in the english dub as "Yu-Uki".

That's not really a translation issue, as much as it's a problem with teaching the voice actors to pronounce Japanese names. There is no regular usage in English that corresponds to the Japanese long vowel sound in 有紀 (Yuuki). When English speakers encounter doubled vowels in Japanese words, there is a tendency to mispronounce them as two separate vowel sounds separated by a glottal stop. "Yoo'ookey", instead of "Yookey". Of course, it doesn't help that the US English spoken by most voice actors is incompatible with many of the vowel sounds in Japanese.

There's nothing to be done about it, however -- it's just the way things work. It's one of the reasons usually given by dub-haters for their stance, and I have to agree with it. Most dubs make me itch.

And it's not just English dubs. In the Danish dub of Tonari no Totoro, the Danish voice actors had difficulties with all the names, but especially with the place name Shichikuniyama and the family name Kusakabe. The latter suffered an embarrassing mispronunciation that had a very unfortunate secondary meaning in Danish, and it left my oldest son and myself in giggles in the theater (and every time we mention it, since then).

- abunai
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Key
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003
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Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)

PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 12:21 pm Reply with quote
abunai wrote:
There's nothing to be done about it, however -- it's just the way things work. It's one of the reasons usually given by dub-haters for their stance, and I have to agree with it. Most dubs make me itch.


In fairness, though, this goes both ways. Unless they've been trained in English to the point where they're fluent, most seiyuu do no better at pronouncing purely English names than English VAs do with Japanese names. Differing notions of syllable structure between English and Japanese have a lot to do with this, from what I understand; gods help a seiyuu who has to try to pronounce an English name which has consecutive consonant sounds or which ends on a consonant sound.
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Zivil



Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 54
Location: Texarkana, USA

PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 1:41 pm Reply with quote
abunai wrote:
sj21 wrote:
... Well, do you think that sometimes the english dub doesn't translate the name correctly...

That's not really a translation issue, as much as it's a problem with teaching the voice actors to pronounce Japanese names...

It's one of the reasons usually given by dub-haters for their stance, and I have to agree with it. Most dubs make me itch...
- abunai

I do prefer the attempt, at least, even if it is wrong as opposed to completely changing the names to an English friendly version, a la Case Closed. With few exceptions every character received a name change. It is the one show I feel a need to watch with the Japanese subtitling turned on.
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
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Location: England, UK

PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 1:58 pm Reply with quote
HyugaHinata wrote:
Mohawk52 wrote:
HyugaHinata wrote:

That's evil. Making people learn kanji just to be a citizen. Evil or Very Mad It's not like native speakers remember all 2000.
No more evil than having to at least learn to read and write level 1 English in order to become a British citizen. What's the point of becoming a citizen of a country if you aren't willing to learn the language needed to live and work successfully there?


Because kanji is a relic. Cavemen made more sense (which was probably why China wiped them out - they were jealous). If EVERY OTHER LANGUAGE in the world can survive without kanji, then so can Japan. You don't need to know 2000 kanjis to survive in Japan. You don't need ANY, because furigana is very versatile.
That can be said for just about any language. There are lots of other language in the world that has it's own form of script, or character that is just as strange as Kanji, and just as much a relic. That doesn't necessarily mean that just because it's old that it shouldn't be used any more. Try understanding Bengally, or Burmese to name just two.


Quote:
Masayume wrote:
As mentioned by the person above me it may seem evil, but even if native speakers don't remember every single character perfectly it's still important to have that kind of knowledge especially if you want to be a citizen. Besides, after you've been there long enough to allow you to start looking into being a citizen I would hope you'd know a rather large amount of kanji.


I'd rather campaign for kanji to be removed from the language entirely, and for something useful to fill the syllabus. Something like biology.
That's like having someone from Japan coming to the US and telling everyone, and anyone who will listen, that you all should drop the alphabet for kanji. You're just being ethnocentric to want Japan to drop a way of communicating, that has been useful to them since they assimilated it from the Chinese centuries ago, just because you find it difficult. Ain't gonna happen.
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HyugaHinata



Joined: 25 Jun 2005
Posts: 1875

PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 5:35 pm Reply with quote
Mohawk52 wrote:
That can be said for just about any language. There are lots of other language in the world that has it's own form of script, or character that is just as strange as Kanji, and just as much a relic. That doesn't necessarily mean that just because it's old that it shouldn't be used any more. Try understanding Bengally, or Burmese to name just two.


Every other language at least developed an alphabet. Kanji is a waste of time because the bulk of the characters aren't used once they graduate. And for Chinese it's even worse because Pinyin hasn't been assimilated into general usage yet.

Mohawk52 wrote:
That's like having someone from Japan coming to the US and telling everyone, and anyone who will listen, that you all should drop the alphabet for kanji. You're just being ethnocentric to want Japan to drop a way of communicating, that has been useful to them since they assimilated it from the Chinese centuries ago, just because you find it difficult. Ain't gonna happen.


I'm being easy-centric, not ethno-centric. :p English has no male or female nouns. As for pronounciation, Chinese has 50,000 different pronounciations, and four different (i.e. retarded) tones. Give children a choice, and they'll pick the language they can learn in 6 years instead of 18 years.


Last edited by HyugaHinata on Mon May 05, 2008 2:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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Veoryn87



Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 808

PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 5:45 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:
abunai wrote:
There's nothing to be done about it, however -- it's just the way things work. It's one of the reasons usually given by dub-haters for their stance, and I have to agree with it. Most dubs make me itch.


In fairness, though, this goes both ways. Unless they've been trained in English to the point where they're fluent, most seiyuu do no better at pronouncing purely English names than English VAs do with Japanese names. Differing notions of syllable structure between English and Japanese have a lot to do with this, from what I understand; gods help a seiyuu who has to try to pronounce an English name which has consecutive consonant sounds or which ends on a consonant sound.


When you say this I'm reminded of Monster. I couldn't even recognize the name "Richard," but name pronounciation is the least of my worries when watching anime in either language. Even if it's suppose to be "HAruka" instead of "HarUka."
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skyesage



Joined: 20 Feb 2008
Posts: 97

PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 5:55 pm Reply with quote
HyugaHinata wrote:


Every other language at least developed an alphabet. Kanji is a waste of time because the bulk of the characters aren't used once they graduate. And for Chinese it's even worse because Pinyin hasn't been assimilated into general usage yet.

I'm being easy-centric, not ethno-centric. :p English has no male or female nouns. As for pronounciation, Chinese has 50,000 different pronounciations, and four different (i.e. retarded) tones. Give children a choice, and they'll pick the language they can learn in 6 years instead of 18 years.


你是一位傻子Smile (Translation: You're an idiot)

I don't mean to sound offended or defensive, but tones aren't that hard to master, and if I can hold a basic conversation in Mandarin after three years of high school level Chinese study, then I don't think it really is so impossible. English is nearly impossible for non-native speakers...

In the subs vs. dubs debate--I love watching dubs and I don't mind them at all. But generally when I have the option I'll watch with subtitles. But I don't refuse to watch TV series on [as] because they don't have subtitles. I also won't get angry if there is no dub (Kamichu, Simoun, stuff like that).
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Zin5ki



Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 3481
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 6:19 pm Reply with quote
skyesage wrote:
English is nearly impossible for non-native speakers...


From my experiences with international students at my college I can assure you this isn't the case.
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Truered



Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 515
Location: Uni

PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 6:25 pm Reply with quote
Referring to the opening question, I prefer subs...however I kind of went from one to another. When I first started out it was always the English language track selected...now it's almost always the Japanese voice track used.

I don't mind dubs, and certain series (such as Cowboy Bebop and GiTS SAC) I'll watch with the dubs. The one great thing about dubs is, due to my lame eyesight I can comfortably sit on my bed and watch anime without straining to get into a position to see the subtitles Laughing
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Saerenity



Joined: 26 Mar 2008
Posts: 3
Location: Durham NH

PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 6:53 pm Reply with quote
wait what does it mean when subbed or dubbed? sorry new at anime
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skyesage



Joined: 20 Feb 2008
Posts: 97

PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 6:58 pm Reply with quote
Zin5ki wrote:


From my experiences with international students at my college I can assure you this isn't the case.


...Fluency is difficult though...English makes no sense sometimes and remembering reading a watered down version of Romeo and Juliet when I was in China a couple of years ago...

My point is, while this is true of most languages, I can't imagine a non-native speaker have any ease in reading something like, say, The Sound and the Fury

Saerenity wrote:
wait what does it mean when subbed or dubbed? sorry new at anime

Subs are subtitles (like in foreign movies). Dubs are when it is spoken in English.
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braves



Joined: 29 Dec 2007
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Location: Puerto Rico (but living in Texas)

PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 7:46 pm Reply with quote
skyesage wrote:

Saerenity wrote:
wait what does it mean when subbed or dubbed? sorry new at anime

Subs are subtitles (like in foreign movies). Dubs are when it is spoken in English.


Actually, dubs can be of any language. And the Japanese version is essentially a dub; but yeah, when most people say "subs," they're reffering to anime in Japanese with English subtitles. And when they say "dubs," they're reffering to anime in English.
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