Forum - View topicFruits Basket (see 2nd post for thread info)
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Richard J.
 Posts: 3367 Location: Sic Semper Tyrannis. |
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As aya_honda pointed out, Kagura's certainly helped Tohru to grow closer to everyone, thus sealing her own fate without realizing it. I think the relationship she has with Tohru could become friendly again someday, more like when they first met, but not for a while.
I think Kagura feels a lot of guilt when she sees Tohru. spoiler[Kagura's feelings for Kyo eventually became real love but they were born out of a sense of superiority and pity, having met when they were children. She saw a boy so alone that all he did was draw eggs and she said "ah, here's someone worse off than me." When her selfish actions led her to see Kyo's true form, she was too afraid of Kyo in his monster form to do anything but run. Then, like Kyo's mother, Kagura tried to pretend that wasn't so later on. As much as she truly did come to love him, Kagura set up a wall between them that neither could ever have crossed, in many ways the same wall Kyo's mother set up.] When she see's Tohru, it must be very painful. Tohru's always acted out of kindness spoiler[and love (though not at first romantic love) toward Kyo and even when she saw his true form, she pushed away her fear to fight to keep him close to her.] Tohru's feelings have never been tainted by any self-indulgence and I think that makes Kagura feel guilty. Plus, Tohru's clearly helped Kyo in ways Kagura never could. I think Kagura's overly-excited and sometimes violent personality when she's with Kyo was in part an attempt to make him leave his own shell of self-imposed solitude, to try to make him react. I think Kagura was always trying to save Kyo and, much like Rin, made a lot of mistakes. She knows that Tohru's done everything she couldn't and rather than hate Tohru for it, I think Kagura is grateful and moved to deep self-hatred for failing Kyo. Being around her means she has to remember just how terrible a person she is (at least in her own mind) compared to Tohru. |
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aya_honda
 Posts: 920 Location: Around here |
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I agree a lot with you. But I would add also the fact that her violent behaviour might have also been the result of her despair. There he is: the boy whom she names "her boyfriend", though Kyo has never admitted that and she can't do anything to help him. Moreover it seems that he is also stubbornly trying to keep his old ways in sealing himself into a world where she can't reach. I think that Kagura many times had the same feelings that Rin had when facing the terrible things that might happen to Haru due to the curse, although Kyo's were definitely much more compelling. What I found quite disappointing a little was the fact that spoiler[ Kagura slowly disappears in the background after Kyo transforms himself in the Nekotsuki and Tohru is the one that saves him. The sudden disappearence that night is also a sign that Kagura realized for the first time how important Tohru has become for Kyo, which probably hurt her very much. In spite of the fact that her love has started from a sense of superiority her love has grown to the extent of a true love that scars and this is what she must face now. ] Also Tohru and Kagura are very different and perhaps this is why their methods were very distinct too. Kagura seems to want seeing results of her actions right away whereas Tohru is much more patient and subtle. Nonetheless it is also amazing to see the nice interaction at the beginning between the two of them. I wonder why Kagura never got jealous on Tohru? She was the girl who lived next to the boy she loved. |
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LydiaDianne
 Posts: 5633 Location: Southern California |
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I think that the relationship between Kagura and Tohru is not the same as the other members of the Zodiac and Tohru. Kagura spoiler[is the only one that doesn't need Tohru. The others need her, for the love and comfort that she provides. And that includes Hatori and Shigure. Kagura just needs Tohru's friendship. And, in watching Tohru & Kyo, that helps Kagura get over her guilt and "love" of Kyo.]
I put "love" in quotes spoiler[concerning Kagura because I don't think that she truly loved Kyo. She did love him but not in the way "true" love should be. Her feelings of guilt got in the way of that.] |
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suna_suna
 Posts: 550 Location: Ohio |
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actuallyspoiler[i think Kagura really did love Kyo. we all know that it came from her forcing herself onto him, but she truly loved him.]
as for the pair of them(future spoilers)spoiler[i'd call it a bit of a love hate relationship between them. at first, Tohru was jealous of Kagura's devotion to her love of Kyo. and later, Kagura must realize that Tohru is the only one who can make Kyo happy and she must choose between Kyo's and her own happiness] |
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aya_honda
Posts: 920 Location: Around here |
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Come to think of it, you are right. Kagura is one of the few zodiacs that doesn't have any wounds to be healed. Apparently she also has a loving family (although her interaction with the father is never mentioned) and she didn't seem particularly in Akito's attention like the other zodiacs. spoiler[ Apparently at the beginning she and Tohru can be friends, especially because there isn't a need that draws them closer. They could have been friends and at least for a while it looked quite possible except for the fact that Kagura observes the changes in Kyo and knows that unfortunately they aren't her doing.] suna_suna wrote:
I agree with you on this one. I also believe that spoiler[Kagura loved Kyo very much and truly loved him, though the starters weren't very honest. But I think that Kagura started to appreciate Kyo as a person since she got to know him better as she has been trying to be closer to him. She somehow came to accept Kyo's true form and get over her superiority thoughts. Later however it was already too late. She had been ignoring for too long Kyo's true form and later on when it came to a rescue, it was another girl instead of her. That must have been heart breaking.] What also convinces me of her true feelings is her gesture. [warning, future spoilers]spoiler[When hearing Tohru's true feelings she goes with all her force and punches the girl telling her that she must tell those things to the person that she loves. Kagura knew how important Tohru had turned out to be for Kyo because she knew him so well. Therefore she had to do something for him and it is her who makes Tohru finally decide and tell Kyo the truth. At the time both Kagura and Tohru don't talk about the incident and they both say that they won't apologize. I think that they finally put a distance between them. ] |
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fighterholic
Posts: 9193 |
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That was truly an episodic moment of the series. One I would not have seen coming but at the same time knew that there was great reason why it happened. You don't know who's sake it was for, but Kagura spoiler[truly let her feelings show for how she felt about Kyo and how she felt about Kyo and Tohru. Many people would probably feel that this is an ordinary cat-fight type incident, all this woman on woman type drama, but that is not what it is at all.] |
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suna_suna
Posts: 550 Location: Ohio |
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that's true even(i'm still in the future)spoiler[when they both pretty much said that they were fighting over him, even though Kagura is the only one who threw a punch.]
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murph76
 Posts: 3291 Location: Akron, OH |
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I agree, but I think spoiler[it's a believable absence because Kagura is comparing her reaction to Kyo's true form to Tohru's and hating the fact that she couldn't react the same way. I don't think she wanted to be around either of them or a time, Tohru especially. I think the incident with Kyo's true form is key to Kagura and Tohru's relationship. It drives how Kagura behaves in every scene following it.] I have to give Kagura credit spoiler[for growing because of it. She recognizes the positive changes in Kyo and knows they're because of Tohru, which makes her dislike Tohru even more. Kagura still loves Kyo, but she's willing to take a step back and allow the emotions between Kyo and Tohru to grow.] VOL. 20 SPOILER spoiler[Kagura even takes steps to push them together. Without that push -- or punch -- from Kagura, Tohru may never have confessed her love to Kyo. That is one of the greatest scenes in the manga. Lots of emotion from all sides, and a nice comic ending.] |
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aya_honda
Posts: 920 Location: Around here |
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It interesting to see that Tohru at the beginning doesn't realize that Kagura hasn't come spoiler[to visit after Kyo's transformation and only after Kagura reappears in the scene that Tohru thinks of it finally. But in spite of the fact that Kagura's feelings were known to Tohru for a very long time, she didn't think of their implications until it was too late and they exploded into her face in the form of that punch.  ]
Coveniently Kagura spoiler[disappears in the background and we don't get to see her until she finally confesses to Kyo which was a really dramatic and honest moment, by the way. I think that it is Rin's question that makes Tohru think hard about her feelings, but it is Kagura's punch that finally make her understand what she needs to do and more importantly to become aware of other people's feelings as well. Kagura is one of the people that will suffer at least for a while because of it. ] |
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murph76
Posts: 3291 Location: Akron, OH |
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OK, we're moving on this week to Kyo and Shigure.
spoiler[Shigure seems to be the one adult outside of Shishou that Kyo can confide in. Not that Kyo does that much, but he did admit to Shigure early in the series that he's always saying mean things to Tohru, unintentionally. Shigure also offers Kyo advice from time to time, inbetween teasing him mercilessly. Knowing how the zodiac feels about the cat, and knowing Shigure's own complex personality, it's hart to tell how Shigure truly feels about Kyo. Shigure dispenses advice, and it almost a fatherly figure from time to time. However, he's not above provoking Kyo into doing something rash, for reasons of his own or just for the fun of watching him explode. ] Here hoping for a good discussion. |
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suna_suna
Posts: 550 Location: Ohio |
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(Super Massive Black Spoiler for volume 23)spoiler[as far as i know, the final piece needed to break the curse is that the cat must find true love. i know it sounds corny, but there is an entire story at the start of chapter 131 that explains it all. anyway, if (and that's a big if) Shigure knew or realized this, then that would be his motivation as somewhat of a guide for Kyo, because he wants the curse to be broken. and really, that's why he brought Tohru into the house in the first place. his reasons are very selfish, but it is nevertheless a good thing that he did. as for the knowledge of this method, perhaps the family did know about it, and that is why the cat was always put into isolation and hated. if the cat had lived on the outside into his (or her?) later years, then he/she would be almost assured of finding love. ]
with Kyo, Shigure is pretty much just an annoyance most of the time, Shishou is his father and shigure is his annoyaing uncle who he is forced to live with when his father leaves. however, there has to be something that Kyo and shigure feel about each other or they wouldn't be able to put up with anything. and Kyo is also Shigure's little toy sometimes. and Kyo probably would end up killing Shigure at some point. |
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aya_honda
Posts: 920 Location: Around here |
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Continuing with the massive spoilers: spoiler[If that would be the case (though sometimes I believe that we are far from understanding Shigure's actions or feelings for that matter), it would explain why he truly wanted Tohru in the house, especially because he, out of all people, should understand the massive consequnces of such an act. But remember that when Tohru and Shigure met for the first time, she told him that although she was born under the dog sign, she would have liked to be under the cat sign though it didn't exist because of what happened. Shigure immediately thinks to Kyo and what his opinion would be about Tohru's words. Of course Shigure wouldn't do anything so generous just for Kyo but because he wants Akito and for that he is able to do anything. ] From the beginning of the manga, Shigure is the annoying uncle that Kyo must have, like suna_suna said. But every now and then he succeeds in giving some really good advice to Kyo and making him think harder on the things that he must do. For instance he is the one that for the first time tells Kyo that spoiler[there might be people that would like him just the way he is, which puzzled the boy quite a lot and later on when Tohru tells him that she likes him and she would like to be his friend, he remembers Shigure's words. On the other hand let's not forget that it was Shigure tricked Kyo into giving an admission exam to the school where Yuki and Tohru go.  ]I wonder how he did that. 
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LydiaDianne
Posts: 5633 Location: Southern California |
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Despite the fact that Shigure is capable of driving Kyo (and everyone else) insane, Shigure does provide that "listening ear" that Kyo needs from someone "neutral." Shishou does listen but he's certainly rather biased in Kyo's favor.
Meh, that's all I can think of right now, sorry. |
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fighterholic
Posts: 9193 |
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Over the course of the series I have found 98% of the relationship between Kyo and Shigure to be one of the most hilarious ones you can read about in the series, along with Yuki and Ayame. Like the time when Shigure said spoiler[he might take Tohru as his wife to Hatori, in which Hatori warned him that there were others who listening. And Kyo's serious face] is burned right in my mind
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murph76
Posts: 3291 Location: Akron, OH |
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I agree. That's one trait you can always count on in this relationship. Shigure will say something perverted, and Kyo will just appear right behind him -- in full fury -- to make him regret it.
That's true. And turning that thought around, we don't necessarily listen to our parents' advice but a 3rd party can tell us the same thing, and the information will be accepted in a different manner. I see a great deal of that in Kyo and Shigure's dealings. |
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