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RE: Manga versus Newtype


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LordByronius
ANN Columnist


Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Posts: 861
Location: Philippe for America! He is five.

PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2002 4:24 am Reply with quote
*Note: some EoE spoilers may be contained below. Although at this point, it's pretty much your own fault if you haven't seen it yet.*

Manga, why do you even bother?

In all these years of operation, have you forgotten that some publications may not, gasp, LIKE some of your product?

And further than that, why argue with them? Some people will find the Eva movies to be a very symbolic cornucopia of stunning imagery. Others will see it as a wierd film with too much violence and creepy little naked girls who decompose. As wrong as it may sound to some people, it happens. I could yammer on and on about how great I think David Lynch's Eraserhead is to somebody who thinks it's just some stupid wierd movie with irritating noises and a creepy dragon fetus. But I wouldn't really get anywhere.

While on the David Lynch motif, his films are constantly slammed by critics and the public. If I remember correctly, Lost Highway had the phrase "Two Thumbs Down!" proudly displayed on some of it's advertising. His interpretation of Dune will be forever reviled by adamant sci-fi dorks who shout rape whenever a book is not translated into film word-by-word.

And another thing: why didn't you guys at Manga go out of your way to scrutinize some of the other film critics who were quite vocal of their distaste for Ghost in the Shell some 6 years ago? I remember a particular review, I believe it was located on the now-defunct Film.com, that essentially called GitS an artless wasteland, and the most overhyped and bitterly awful film of the year. He had the standard complaints: the mouth movements don't match up, the animation is not Disney-fluid, too much nudity, etc. To us, his reasonings for disliking the film are absurd.

Thus, my Manga friends, you are relegated to the status of us lowly internet forum posters. Quick to anger and quicker to respond. At least in these forums, most of us are not deluded into thinking our opinions hold a special kind of validity.

In short, I'd bet Hideki Anno would be real embarrassed.
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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 12042

PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2002 5:23 am Reply with quote
I've only seen Eraserhead from Lynch's line-up, and I liked it, but still hate EOE. I guess to me there's a difference between an artistic endeavor and a show-off pretending to be smarter than the rest of the public. (*cough* Tarantino *cough*)
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Craeyst Raygal



Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 1383
Location: In the garage, beneath a 1970 MGB GT.

PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2002 3:00 pm Reply with quote
I tend to think that Manga had a reasonable point to their complaint; Eva wasn't judged as it is presented.

The reviewer obviously didn't research the film, so they didn't know how it is pieced together. Nor is there any attempt to delve deeper into the film, as it is extended thinking.

I'm not a big fan of Evangelion, but it doesn't take a brain surgeon to realize that it has a TON more going on than "kids in mecha". If they really wanted to give an accurate review, they could've just said that Eva is possibly the biggest mindf**k ever animated.
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Emerje
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Joined: 10 Aug 2002
Posts: 6138
Location: Maine

PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2002 3:24 pm Reply with quote
So here's a question, Do you think this guy would say the same things if he was rating the ADV release of the TV series and do you think ADV would have printed it in NewType? I somehow doubt it.

Emerje
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Ataru



Joined: 04 Jan 2002
Posts: 2252
Location: Missouri (Strikeman)

PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2002 4:48 pm Reply with quote
The only I got to say is, *Pulls out a grain of salt.* Take one and don't call me in the morning. Like Lord said, Manga got some bads reviews in the past (WoH DVD anyone.).
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Case



Joined: 09 Apr 2002
Posts: 1016

PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2002 6:17 pm Reply with quote
All I can really add to this thread are three realizations that struck me while reading Mr. Gleicher's open letter:

#1 - Precisely what LordByronius has already said: "Thus, my Manga friends, you are relegated to the status of us lowly internet forum posters. Quick to anger and quicker to respond."

EoE has gotten dozens of extremely positive reviews from various websites, entertainment magazines, anime publications, and newspapers. They get one negative review from a new major publication, and their CEO is crying like a spoiled brat.

Perhaps he's become to accustomed to hearing that Evangelion is the best anime ever. He needs to learn that different people have different tastes, that everyone won't always agree with him, and that he can't be the Thought Police and force people to agree with him by sending dissenting opinions to them.

I can commisserate with Newtype's reviewer. EVA has never excited me. I think the story is too fantastical for the philosophical points it tries to make, and I think that it is incredibly overrated. Its philosophy is very neat, but the way they chose to embody it is highly impractical and unnecessarily confusing.

I think he really has no business commenting at all. From the perspective of a non-EVA fanatic, it now seems like he is trying to force his product down everyone throats; like those of us who don't sing the praises of his product are radicals. He seriously needs to learn to respect other people's opinions.


#2 - Mr. Gleicher is every bit as judgemental as he proclaims Newtype to be:

Marvin Gleicher wrote:

I can only infer that the decision to print this article was made in order to malign our product.


On the page opposite the Evangelion reviews, Newtype gives a thumbs up to the new domestic Utena TV series DVDs; and there are positive reviews of numerous other non-ADV products throughout the magazine. That in mind, how can he say that ADV is trying to promote their products by dismissing others? The reviews that I have read so far are generally positive. Reflecting on my relatively wide knowledge of internet-published anime reviews, it seems to me that Newtype is trying to offer anime fans guidance in their purchases as genuine as anyone else's.

If you ask me, to discredit NewType's review as an attempt to malign Manga Entertainment's products is to completely ignore the tastes and experience of the reviewer. It's clear that in Mr. Gleicher's "letter", he hasn't made the slightest effort to interpret or reflect upon anything he's read, but has merely given us his most niggling and reactionary protest of NewType's review.


#3 - People can launch flame war on you even if you don't write reviews for a website. Razz

Just imagine, ANN Reviewers: One day you could move on to write for a big anime publication, and then your e-mail boxes will be flooded with complaints from people like Mr. Gleicher instead of faceless otaku named ChichiriXMiaka343.
Very Happy
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Dan42
Chief Encyclopedist


Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 3169
Location: Montreal

PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2002 6:23 pm Reply with quote
I just had an interesting thought: who made this letter public exactly? Was it Manga who wanted to make their protest heard, or was it ADV who wanted to make Manga look childish?
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Calee



Joined: 09 Nov 2002
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2002 6:52 pm Reply with quote
I think that New Type, even if the reviewer did not like Eva, should have given better reasons then the ones listed, the reviewer was being pathetic, and did not reasearch the movie what so ever. I don't mind it when people slam anime movies/shows, but ignorance is discusting. I thought that Eva was confusing at first, and weird, but i still give credit to the creators for one screwed up ending, which makes sence after i watched the commentary.
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Case



Joined: 09 Apr 2002
Posts: 1016

PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2002 8:23 pm Reply with quote
Dan42 wrote:

I just had an interesting thought: who made this letter public exactly? Was it Manga who wanted to make their protest heard, or was it ADV who wanted to make Manga look childish?


Manga had to have written it. It's too perfect. Even humanity's best and brightest would have a hard time sounding that earnestly pathetic.
Rolling Eyes
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TheAngstyKiller



Joined: 01 Sep 2002
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2002 9:46 pm Reply with quote
...so they call everyone who buys the magazine "sucka's"? way to win back the public there Confused
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crazyEVAotaku



Joined: 04 Sep 2002
Posts: 3
Location: Roswell, GA

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2002 7:02 pm Reply with quote
Evangelion is my total favorite anime of all time, but all my friends hate it. They believe that it's far too sophisticated and confusing to be enjoyed. What kind of stupid reason is that? They all enjoy the senseless violence-like series, for example, Fist of the North Star, which I can't stand. Now, as you're reading this, some of you are saying "I hear ya, buddy!" while the rest of you are probably like "How can you hate Fist of the North Star??? It's so bloody and cool!!!"

We all have different tastes in anime, and we all react to others' criticism in different ways. I believe that's another reason which makes anime so interesting: it's fans have such diverse tastes, because anime is made up of such diverse types of series.

For this reason, I believe that the Newtype review was not wrong in any way. For all we know, the person who wrote it simply doesn't like Evangelion, for any reason I listed or any other. However, I also believe that Manga is being quite childish on the whole matter. You guys said that they're being stupid to go crazy over this one bad review. I agree. Both EVA movies got great reviews, and they were both at the top of the HMV Sales Charts (among those of other fine entertainment stores). I love Evangelion, but I don't like Manga's release of the two DVDs. I believe that I waited too long for something that I didn't get enough of. And while the original voice actors present in the movies did some of the greatest jobs I've ever witnessed in any animated feature, I believe the replacement cast was horrible. Fuyutski's voice was dull and plain, and Hyuga's voice actor did not even come close to capturing the "nerdy-ness" of the character. I'd list other reasons for which I was dissapointed from the releases, but that might take a while to explain.

In short, we all feel differently on many animes. I think Newtype may have angered some with their review, and that Manga is wrong for reacting the way they did, and that by all means shouldn't have called us, the purchasers of the Newtype magazine, "sucka's", just because we bought something which criticizes a product of theirs.

Thanks for your time, I know that was a doozy. Laughing
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Denzen



Joined: 11 Nov 2002
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2002 8:01 pm Reply with quote
Manga has a right to be angry. What was written in Newtype can't even be called a review. The review should list the good and bad qualities, a basic premise, a brief look at director's intent and finally an INFORMED opinion.


What Newtype printed was only an opinion from someone who was just haneded a disk and told to "watch." I'd be embarrased to put that "review" on a fansite much more commercial wannabe mainstream publication. I'm not saying the Eva dvd's were perfect (crappy extras, technical problems, etc.) but they didn't even get the time of day from Newtype.

However, if I were Manga, I wouldn't have put my two cents public because Newtype is a pointless rag much like Wizard. I bet if Manga pays thousands of dollars for advertising they'd get a killer review real quick.
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Minion



Joined: 11 Nov 2002
Posts: 1
Location: NY

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2002 9:35 pm Reply with quote
The mere fact that Manga entertainment has created such a quick and close minded rebuttle with their hundred dollar words is very unprofessional and can be viewed upon as drastic. It's no secret that both of the Evangelion movies from a publishing standpoint (storyline aside for the moment) have their faults, noticeable faults. In short Manga screwed up, not once but twice. Manga's obvious lack of effort to create the kind of DVD releases that these titles deserved has peeved fans to say the least. To further the problems with the DVD's, Newtype has bashed them both with bad reviews. Not necessarilly well thought out reviews, but journalistic nonetheless. It is in the opinion of this writer, and it is just that: an opinion, that Manga hurriedly wrote up a response/harrassment because they were worried about the amount of people that will be viewing the article as Newtype is a fresh and sure to be popular publication in the U.S.

In my opinion, Evangelion (in all it's forms; TV, movies) is 100% overrated garbage. That doesn't necessarily mean that I am right. In fact, I would be hard pressed to find somebody that agrees with me. However, that is my opinion, and I can state it whenever and wherever I like. I could even write it in a magazine if I were employed by one. I am not concerned with what other people think about my opinion because they have no bearing on it.

It will be a sad day when somebody is reprimanded for stating an opinion. It is my sincere hope that Newtype will not even respond to something as foolish as Manga's letter of rebut.




On a side note, I would like to say hello to everyone out there. I am new to these forums but certainly not new to the site. 8)
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Lord_Satorious



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 15
Location: Boston, MA, USA

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2002 9:48 pm Reply with quote
Actually Minion, I too believe that Shin Seiki Evangelion is far over-hyped, but I do not dismiss it at garbage. I do however think that fans made it bigger than it is, and much of the rumors and analysis gotten way out of hand in the past. I think with anime such as Evangelion you need to listen more to the creator's thoughts (which are very surprising to most fans, let me tell you) and less of what other people think.

In any case, Manga Entertainment took what was not even a review (it was in a section entitled "News & Newtype" which I believe is for commentary only, not actual reviews) and blew it way out of proportion. I can understand Manga's distress, as it most likely cost them a large sum of money to license End of Evangelion, so any bad press would drive down sales and possibly not even make a return profit for Manga. Still, even if the End of Evangelion column was a review, you could consider it an "anti-review," ala Mr. Cranky. Mr. Cranky hates ALL movies, regardless of content. An anti-review takes minor issues in a film and blows them up and makes them seem like major plot points. The idea to to show only the film's shortcomings, and of course, it's for humour purposes only. I believe the writer of that column was going for that sort of style. Not that it was a review in the first place, but if it was, it wasn't to be taken seriously.

Newtype will not respond to Manga's letter. They, as we do, realize it was probably a mistake for Manga Entertainent to release the letter at all, and therefore I'm sure this is being discussed privately between the two companies. After all, Newtype wants Manga's advertising as much as Manga wants to be seen in what might end up as a widely-read publication for anime fans.
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Armblessed



Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Posts: 20
Location: Alaska

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2002 11:03 pm Reply with quote
Before I begin, I must admit I have not read the actual article, though I wish I could. I am going off of what Manga said and the actual quotes they used, which does admittededly give me a biased starting point. However, it doesnt appear to me that many here have read the actual article either(I may be wrong) so I'll add thoughts.
Now, I think most people are missing the point of Manga's response to NewType. The point Manga was trying to make was not that they were upset because of a negative review, but that the review was poorly written with little or no apparent research or intelligent commentary.
The review should have said they didn't like it, but in more intelligent terms such as "This is what happened, here's why, and here's why I didn't like it" rather than a very simplified and negatively-toned description of the events. The author of the review also goes on to claim that Manga is to blame for the repeat in content between the two movies(I've heard both sides of this argument) and the letter from Manga replies that that is incorrect and reflects a lack of research.
Manga is not saying they are mad because someone wrote a bad review of Eva. Manga is not writing because someone remarked on the poor quality of their DVDs (something I would agree with). Manga is saying that the letter is unthoughtful, poorly written, and poorly researched and therefore should not have been published as it reflects badly on the author and NewType.
Manga may have made too big of a deal out of this or maybe we made too big of a deal out of the letter, I'm not commenting on that. I'm just saying that I agree with them on the issue addressed in their letter. That from what I have seen, the review is poorly written, regardless of the opinion. If someone had written a review that said "Evangelion is God because its super-duper and you all suck for not liking it", I would have felt equally about the quality of the review. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but they should state it in a thoughtful, respectful manner if they expect others to give thought and respect to the review and the author.

Whats with the Wizard bashing, by the way?
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