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Otakon 2009 - Fansubs and Industry panel


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walw6pK4Alo



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 7754

PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:04 am Reply with quote
Oh boy, before I even watch it I can all taste the "fansubs are pointless, we simulcast shows now" that will be coming out the obligatory FUNi rep.

I'll add more after I watch the entire video, but I doubt the sitatuations changed any since last year's panel. Even with those online streams, they still don't cover most of the shows, or most of the good ones either. Take CR right now, all their shows are frivolous yuri romps aside from Shangri-La and Hayate.

I do agree on the MB view of BD, it's not gonna the switch from VHS to DVD was, that was a switch out of pure superiority, just not perceived
better visually quality. Not everyone has an HDTV or BD player, everything plays DVDs now. As for online, it's already here with anime, as far as downloading is concerned. Computers only make it easier to do everything.

I would hope the industry can do more simulcasts and streams, but please, get some better quality. Phantom looked absolutely awful, I'm not using an 800x600 screen, when I fullscreen I just get artifacts and crap everywhere. Get the YouTube HD quality, full episodes (no part uploads) and you might get more fansub watchers. Like he says about what Japan gives them in terms of video size, sorry that you get tiny resolutions, but the issue isn't about money when comparing fansubs and streams, it's about the quality, and the industry loses.

Even then, you'll still have people downloading the fansubs regardless of the steps they take. Fansubs allow the user to view the show as they want, in whatever video player they choose. There's more options to play with should you need to.

As far as the "Don't use the spellings you see on the screen", I think that might be the problem that's happened an incredible amount, like with Holo. In the end, only the mangaka would know, and even then, maybe he doesn't. Is it Craft Lawrence or Lawrence Craft? Having the Japanese reviewing just seems to take too much time and effort when the only real problem is maybe a misspelling.


Last edited by walw6pK4Alo on Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:31 am; edited 6 times in total
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21stcenturydigitalboy



Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 103
Location: Virginia Beach, Virginia

PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:07 am Reply with quote
I like how you are 'streaming the entire panel in it's entirety' :p
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vashfanatic



Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 3315
Location: Back stateside

PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:07 am Reply with quote
Excellent, excellent panel! I was expecting a fansubs-are-killing-the-industry take, and instead it was all about the constructive ways that fansubs can, on the one hand, give advice to the industry, and, on the other, how streaming is changing the game for fansubbers and making them less necessary. The thoughts on new technology for subtitling, on the difficulties of translation, all were just great things to hear people talking about!

And karaoke as "molesting a font"... my chosen fansub group for Macross Frontier would've finished the series much faster had they just soft-subbed the lyrics in along with the subtitles instead of using the fancy, distracting, screen-blocking, unremovable karaoke that they did. Thankfully a few groups are starting to get the message and change their patterns. About the only good thing about karaoke effects is that they increase my desire for the DVDs.

Oh, and on what can stall up a fansub: it's not just video games, some of us have lives, you know? Jobs, school... it's a good reason to get professionals doing things, they can actually put their whole attention into something because it's what they do for a living and getting paid for. Some of what you pay for on a DVD is so that they can be that involved. Too many fans (though not all by any means) seem to think that subtitles appear magically on their videos, whether official releases or fansubs, and forget about the work and dedication that goes on behind the scenes.

walw6pK4Alo wrote:
Oh boy, before I even watch it I can all taste the "fansubs are pointless, we simulcast shows now" that will be coming out the obligatory FUNi rep.


You must be feeling really foolish at this point watching it. He said nothing of the kind.


Last edited by vashfanatic on Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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Xanas



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 2055

PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:10 am Reply with quote
I actually like karaoke enough to want to mux the 720p video with the dvd dub audio. At least that's my goal for a few shows now. I want to keep the karaoke around personally. I don't know how anyone dislikes well timed karaoke.

And there are groups that keep the quality of karaoke high while not delaying the timing of their releases significantly. The groups that take forever just aren't very committed even if they are quality, and you can tell that from their update postings.
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vashfanatic



Joined: 16 Jun 2005
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Location: Back stateside

PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:15 am Reply with quote
Xanas wrote:
I actually like karaoke enough to want to mux the 720p video with the dvd dub audio. At least that's my goal for a few shows now. I want to keep the karaoke around personally. I don't know how anyone dislikes well timed karaoke.


But see, that's part of the problem: much of the karaoke isn't subtitled in to be muxed, it's hardsubbed onto the video. In other words, you don't have the option to get rid of it, or to put it on to other video footage.
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jsevakis
ANN Director of New Media


Joined: 28 Jul 2003
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Location: Los Angeles, CA

PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:18 am Reply with quote
21stcenturydigitalboy wrote:
I like how you are 'streaming the entire panel in it's entirety' :p


Redundant sentence is redundant. And tired video guy is tired.
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Xanas



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:19 am Reply with quote
I don't want to get rid of it, I want to keep it, so as long as the video quality is high (720p w/ decent bitrate) I plan to mux the audio from DVD to the 720p video with the hardsubbed karaoke. It'd be nice if karaoke were soft-sub, that'd make my job significantly easier but unfortunately the good effects just aren't possible yet in softsub.

Most DVD < good 720p fansub in terms of quality if their source was solid.

In this case, to be more specific, Gundam 00 had multiple reasonably good 720p fansubs with karaoke effects. So I'm not losing video quality by using those instead of the dvd source. In fact, it looks marginally better than the dvd and definitely better than a dvd-sourced rip.

If ef - a tale of memories ever comes out (and has the fortune to get a dub.. which is extremely unlikely now), then I would definitely be doing that because I really like the karaoke effects and video quality of one particular set of releases.
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vashfanatic



Joined: 16 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:33 am Reply with quote
Xanas wrote:
I don't want to get rid of it, I want to keep it, so as long as the video quality is high (720p w/ decent bitrate) I plan to mux the audio from DVD to the 720p video with the hardsubbed karaoke. It'd be nice if karaoke were soft-sub, that'd make my job significantly easier but unfortunately the good effects just aren't possible yet in softsub.


Oooh, okay, I get it, you use the fansub video with the hardsubbed karaoke, and mux on the DVD-release dub.

Well, since I like neither karaoke nor dubs, you and I clearly have different tastes. Wink To each their own, it takes all kinds! At least you're supporting the industry.
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bayoab



Joined: 06 Oct 2004
Posts: 830

PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:55 am Reply with quote
For those who don't have the bw, a mostly complete transcript is available here.
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Shadowrun20XX



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 1439

PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:16 am Reply with quote
jsevakis wrote:
21stcenturydigitalboy wrote:
I like how you are 'streaming the entire panel in it's entirety' :p


Redundant sentence is redundant. And tired video guy is tired.
We appreciate your work,boss.

bayoab wrote:
For those who don't have the bw, a mostly complete transcript is available here.
Thank you.
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Sakagami Tomoyo



Joined: 06 Dec 2008
Posts: 268
Location: Melbourne, VIC, Australia

PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:22 am Reply with quote
Xanas wrote:
I don't know how anyone dislikes well timed karaoke.


Because I dislike the pointless, flashy, wanky text effects getting in the way of the actual animation, often hardsubbed onto the video so I can't turn it off, even when the subtitles translating dialogue are softsubs. I don't know how anyone likes karaoke.
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Shadowrun20XX



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 1439

PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:44 am Reply with quote
There is nothing you can do about Karaoke.It's still trendy and until those that fansub get tired of it,it will be there from here on out.No use complaining about it.There is no use talking about it.

Quote:
Everyone should when they get home... They have a homework assignment to write Cartoon Network an email supporting anime.
Good idea,though I'd like to believe that we can think of an even better idea than to continuously rely on Cartoon Networks support,just because you saw an anime boom in 2000 and won't let it go.It's over and just as I'd said when I joined ANN,Cartoon Network used anime to get fans in the door,and then began slowly replacing the material with their own.Seems like you have the memory of a goldfish or are too new to know.
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Zalis116
Moderator


Joined: 31 Mar 2005
Posts: 5615
Location: Arcana City

PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:16 am Reply with quote
Sakagami Tomoyo wrote:
Xanas wrote:
I don't know how anyone dislikes well timed karaoke.


Because I dislike the pointless, flashy, wanky text effects getting in the way of the actual animation, often hardsubbed onto the video so I can't turn it off, even when the subtitles translating dialogue are softsubs. I don't know how anyone likes karaoke.
I generally don't mind karaoke. In fact, I'd rather it be hardsubbed, since softsubbed karaoke looks worse (due to technical limitations) and can cause playback issues. The one thing I don't like about karaoke is that groups forget that some people might actually want to read the English translations. And for some reason, they think that the already barely-observed standards of sub readability for main dialogue subs don't apply to karaoke. Feast your eyes on these, if you dare:

No self-respecting group would use light-colored subs with white outlines for main dialogue subs, or at least that's what I'm desperate to believe. So why is it okay to do for karaoke?

While there is some selection bias at work, I'd like to think that things were better in the past:


Which brings me to something I didn't get the chance to bring up in the panel. At one point, getfresh laid into the industry coalition with a rant on the lines of "yellow Arial with black outlines is just about the ugliest thing that could possibly be put on the screen. Fansub subtitles are constantly evolving, we don't do the same thing we did back in 1986 just because it worked back then." Well, one thing that's being missed is that styles that were readable back in 1986 still work today, so why fix it if it ain't broken? Sure, fansub styles have been evolving, but I'd say they've been evolving in the wrong direction, away from the ideal getfresh expressed of "as boring as possible."

Generally, I can pick a 2000-2002 fansub at random (from what's accessible to me, anyway) and have a good chance of getting simple, readable sub styles. Whereas if I pick something from the last few years, there's a very high probability of getting some too-small, serifed, no-shadow style that blends in with backgrounds, hair, or clothing. In essence, styles have "evolved" to the point where they're good at "fitting the anime" and being artistic, but bad at their original purpose of being read.

If only I had a 100 yen coin for every time a fansub left me wishing for DVD-yellow...
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Xanas



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 2055

PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:41 am Reply with quote
Readability can be an issue and some groups do suck about that quite a bit with regularity. I tend to avoid those groups or if a good group has a bad outing I'll go with someone else. I will even go with a non-karaoke group if just everyone else is crappy, but it's not my preference.

In regards to the "they block blah blah blah" (honestly), so do the credits.... If I'm looking for clean animation I'm going to have to wait for the DVD anyway. I like flashy things, which is why I watch even the the OP and ED animation almost every time I watch a show anyway (unless I dislike them, but it's rare that I'll dislike both and still want to watch the show).

I'll also admit it's probably a little unfair of me to say that, because I'm watching most fansubs on a 42" TV from 3 ft away (generally only 1/3 screen at that distance though), so the font really doesn't cover as much area as your images display and even lower readability is not terrible for me.
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21stcenturydigitalboy



Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 103
Location: Virginia Beach, Virginia

PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:52 am Reply with quote
karaoke on the op and ed is fine by me since I actually do sing along, but karaoke on songs playing in the show, especially in dramatic moments, is [expletive] annoying because it detracts from the experience in what is usually the wrong place. And even on op/eds the stuff needn't be so overly flashy and silly, especially if they do the wholly pointless job of putting the actual Japanese text on screen. There are some ops I can't even remember because of the karaoke being too cumbersome.

Simply a thin, white line of english text at the bottom and romaji at the top for the op and ed should be all.
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