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Shelf Life - Sugar and Spice


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Mixie



Joined: 28 Mar 2009
Posts: 8
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:06 pm Reply with quote
If theres one thing that people having trouble picking a genre for Spice & Wolf can attest to, its how great the show actually is. It being picked up gives me hopes that other shows that think not just outside of the box but like 20 miles away, will be picked up. Dennou Coil please and thank you.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7912
Location: Anime News Network Technodrome
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:23 pm Reply with quote
Loganator456 wrote:
I totally agree. I don't think the writer quite "got" what the point of Spice and Wolf was, and simply judging a book by its cover does deserve a bit of feedback.


Hey no offense but telling someone who read the entire book and then gives an opinion you don't agree with that they're "judging the book by its cover" is pretty stupid guys!!

She watched the entire show. She didn't just read the back cover blurb and see the art and then give an opinion. You don't agree with what she said about it, but saying she's judging it based on a lack of information or a lack of experience is flat out false.

I realize when you have a subjective disagreement with someone the hot new fad is to try and "prove" them as objectively wrong but you may want to come up with something a little less demonstrably false than "she's judging a book by its cover".
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Shadowrun20XX



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 1935
Location: Vegas
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:27 pm Reply with quote
DerekTheRed wrote:
I think that is the most inasne collection I've seen in a long, long while.
That's a fellow collector for you. It's too bad the newer fans aren't into collecting. Sad really.

I do see some noteworthy rarities in Alec's collection. Some double dips too. Box art is still irresistible.
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erinfinnegan
ANN Columnist


Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 598
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:38 pm Reply with quote
Alright, this will probably be "tl;dr" but here goes:

jsevakis wrote:
Wow, an Uncle Morty's Dub Shack reference! And here I thought nobody ever watched our shitty cable network!

I like how it has the same PSA's for every commercial break. How does that channel stay afloat?

KanjiiZ wrote:
I'm guessing no one wants to discuss how cool this guys collection is and wants to debate Spice and Wolf tsundere, right?

I would much rather discuss those shelves!

Like, where did you buy laser discs back in the day? I know someone who's parents' had LDs at their videostore, but you couldn't like, order them online, could you? Did you rent them first? Buy shows blind? Watch 'em at conventions?

Reibooi wrote:
I honestly would not be so quick to write Holo off as a Tsundere. Now I'm not some crazy fan boy but this little topic interests me a bit.... [snip]
Holo never actually acts bitchy or mean. she's just very proud and proud people(even in real life) often come of a snooty asses. However she very rarely ever acts TRULY mean towards Lawrence at all.

Obviously Zac is right, and everyone has a subjective definition here, but my take on it is kind of like... you can be a little bit of a tsundere. Holo isn't a one-stroke character, she's not just a "type," she has a lot of depth. I think of her as part-tsundere.

Actually I think of myself as a tsundere. I've been calling myself one since 2007. (Note: I don't think of myself as a "bitch". I hate that word and try never to use it.)

neocloud9 wrote:
You make it sound like the show is some sort of pander-fest, which it really isn't. I could tell that real thought, effort and - dare I say it - heart went into this series and it drew me in like no other show has in a long time. It felt genuine to me.

Maybe I came on too strong. This show is nicely made, it is quite genuine. It's not a pander-fest. I think... these forums have a definition of the word "pander" that I'm not fully aware of. I was talking with Bamboo for a Chicks on Anime piece and that word came up. I kept asking for a definition of "pandering" because I wasn't really clear on it.

Karisu wrote:
Then why bother using such descriptive words when you agree that no one can come to a consensus on their meaning? If you see time and time again key words (like furrry or tsudere) spark such debate, then why not refrain from using them?

I didn't realize until too late that tsundere was such a spark word around these parts. I have two other jobs, so I don't have a lot of time to spend reading the forums.

Anyway, if a bird walks by with webbed feet, a bill, and it's quacking, I'm going to call it a duck. Maybe it's some weird species of duck, but even if it's a swan I'd be right in calling it duck-like.

Karisu wrote:
Also, I will concede that Brina Palencia's rendition of the character, after having heard it for the entire season's run, is definitely more haughty/bitch like than the only version I was familiar with (Ami Koshimizu's). So, I can imagine how someone might view her take on the character as approximating tsundere. Of course it would be nice if writers were a little more thorough and at least sampled an episode with the original voice actors work so they could notice the differences in approach.

I switched back and forth from English to Japanese a lot to check.

Loganator456 wrote:
I totally agree. I don't think the writer quite "got" what the point of Spice and Wolf was, and simply judging a book by its cover does deserve a bit of feedback.

Just because someone doesn't like something it doesn't mean they didn't "get" it. I "got" Spice and Wolf, I just didn't enjoy it.

Zac wrote:
vashfanatic wrote:
...from all art I've seen of her, she definitely isn't a furry characters. At best she has ears and a tail; the furry fandom is into fully anthropomorphic animals, like you'd find in Redwall or Sonic the Hedgehog. I mean, I can run an image of her by my friend who actually writes "furry" stories (not the pornographic type) and see what he thinks, but she's more in synch with the nekomimi model than a full furry.

I read that comment as more of a joke than anything else. I don't think she was seriously suggesting this show is for furries.

I was half-joking. I only know a few furries in real life, but isn't there a range of furries? Like, not all of them are "furverts" and there are different levels of animal/human characteristics that they like, or, that's what I figured. (Not all of them are into Sonic, that is so totally racist.)

Whenever some kid walks by me at an anime convention wearing cat ears and a fox tail I wonder if they are a furry, or if they know what that means.

I have never stopped to wonder if I truly understand the definition of furry or not, because I feel like I know enough, and besides, it's almost poisonous knowledge. Several times I have had to explain what furries are to non-nerdy coworkers. It's embarrassing, and why do I even know about it if I'm not one? Just knowing the definition makes me a little suspect. In fact, please don't define it any further, because I don't want to know more things that I can't un-know.

rainbowcourage wrote:
I was surprised to see Spice and Wolf as only rental-worthy; but it did make me think twice. I probably would have put it as shelf-worthy, but maybe if the series doesn't have broad general appeal it shouldn't be shelf-worthy, regardless of the quality, at least for the purposes of this column.

If you were writing this column, you could make it Shelf Worthy, because this is a review column, not a democracy. Mostly, it is a well-made show, but I think it doesn't have broad appeal. It think the opposite; it has super-specific nerdy appeal, and that was the point of my Venn diagram. Whether or not my labels were correct, this show only appeals to very specific groups of people.
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b4k4ni04



Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 42
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:41 pm Reply with quote
@rainbowcourage: Well put!. horo isnt as much a tsundere as she is simply playful, and Lawrence is so easily teased. She is confident in herself. It seems to me that Tsun-tsun occurs more frequently when the character is put on the defensive and fights off the harmful, if clueless comments of those around her.

...

anywho the Spice and Wolf's OP had me sold after the first listen ^^;.
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FeralKat



Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 402
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:44 pm Reply with quote
To start things off I'm not a raging fanboy, but a woman who has very particular tastes. It's easy to say that anything that even remotely looks moe/tsundere/whatever-you-want-to-call-it makes me run right in the opposite direction and hide in my piles of shojo manga. Which is exactly why it took a lot of time to sample Spice & Wolf a while back.

I went in expecting some dumb tsundere wolf-girl and what I got was a very classy and complex female character. You just don't get those very often.

I don't mean to add to all the nerd rage going around in this thread, but I think it was a disservice to the series to call Holo a Tsundere. Sad

Just my two cents.

EDIT: In response to Erin's post above, I associate the word "tsundere" with "low-brow" most of the time. I think that's why it sparked such a debate.


Last edited by FeralKat on Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 2707
Location: San Diego, CA
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:44 pm Reply with quote
Youkai Warrior wrote:
That is an impressive collection, but I also think it's a bit much. I could never have a collection that big, nor do I want a collection that big. I like anime but not all anime. I also do not have the time or money. Again, that is impressive that you have such a large collection, but to the rest of you who might be feeling envious, don't feel bad. Stick to the anime you know you love, it will be less stressful, you will have more time and money.


It's really not your place to worry about the size of the collection. This person has a large collection. I knew a co-worker who took a cruise/tour every year or 2 & thought nothing of the cost even though she was by no means rich. Perhaps this person chooses to buy anime & manga rather than buy videogames or go on vacation, etc.
It's really not all that hard nor really all that expensive. Shop sales, score some good buys. In the 8 years or so I've been collecting, I've managed to acquire a pretty large collection(2000 dvds. 3000 manga). I don't drink, smoke, or use drugs (no coffee habit, either. 3 pairs of shoes is more than enough), so I figure what others spend on that I can spend on anime & manga & I assume this collector does the same. I will never manage to take any pix of my stuff because it's vaguely organized, but it's in constant flux so there's always stuff shoved in odd places waiting to be organized a bookcase at a time.
I'm sure this person has stuff that is irreplacible & counts himself/herself lucky to have it (The uncut Sailor Moon dvds I bought my daughter. numerous titles that are now unavailable for myself)


Quote:
I thought that episodes 79-91 of One Piece were Shelf Worthy in a previous column, but that doesn't necessarily mean every season of One Piece is Shelf Worthy.
In this set, Luffy and crew return Princess Vivi to her desert kingdom of Alabasta. All is not well in Alabasta, where a gangster named Crocodile is causing a lot of problems for Vivi's father. Luffy and friends end up crossing the desert to set things straight. Also, Luffy's brother Ace joins our heroes for a time, acting like a badass.


We differ yet again.
Ace, My god, Ace is such a cool older brother in this set. Yeah, Alabaster is too long (Enel coming up is just as bad) This set is a must have for Ace. If I weren't already set on getting the whole thing (what's another 200-volume set like the DBZ singles I have?)
Were I picking & choosing, I would get this (for Ace) & skip the rest. Of course Kazuki Yao back as Bon Clay is too great (Django from Kuro's crew. He also returns later as Frankie)

Quote:
There are a lot of annoying incidental characters like Chip and Dib (brothers from the Badlands) who need to be dealt with.


I got Chip & Dip off the cast list myself. Made more sense. Their dad (Scorpion) was more interesting (Jyrouta Kosugi-Arlong from a prior arc. Title character in one of my oldest shonen loves-Zenki)

Quote:
I don't mind party members getting lost in the desert, but those ruins better figure back into the plot later or else I've just wasted 26 minutes of my life!


Robin's into archeology. I believe her reason for hooking up with Crocodile is related to looking for certain ruins, but if you've seen any of the show with Robin in the crew, you'll know she is usually dragged in to read ancient writings/carvings/etc

Quote:

Worst of all, there is no conclusion of any kind in this box set.


Isn't Ace off again? We won't see him for a bit?
I suspect the huge fuss about the reunion of Ace & Luffy in this box had more to do with Mayumi Tanaka (Krillin) & Toshio Furukawa (Piccalo) performing together again. THis arc also brings in Ryûzaburô Ôtomo (Dabura-now Crocodile)
Quote:

The crew hasn't found the Rebel Army by episode 103, which wraps up in a "The Princess is in another castle" ending.


Blame Chopper. He was there.
Quote:

At least in the previous set they got a new crew member and set back to sea for a new adventure!


If they add a crew member every 13 eps, that little boat's going to sink under the weight of them all before we get to Foxy. BEsides, Ace is an important semi-regular like Shanks.

Quote:
In this set, the crew meets a villain named Mr. 2, but they don't even fight him.

Bon Clay showed up in ep 78 (last ep 2 sets back, wasn't it?) & was also in 91 & 92.
The fact he didn't meet Sanji on the boat does come into play later.

Quote:
I often feel like videogames are hard work to play, so numbered villains makes me feel like this show is hard work to watch.


Noting Crocodile's uncaring response to needing to replace a bunch of Hundreds, doesn't it suggest more a lazy way to let his followers create a pecking order based on strength so he doesn't have to micromanage? Not to mention he doesn't need to learn his operatives' names. But you also note the undercover/spy-like quality involved.
You must have hated Get Smart.
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jgreen



Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 1325
Location: St. Louis, MO
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:52 pm Reply with quote
erinfinnegan wrote:

Like, where did you buy laser discs back in the day? I know someone who's parents' had LDs at their videostore, but you couldn't like, order them online, could you?


I only had one friend who had a LD player, and back around '95 when he was buying LDs, he bought them all the Laserdisc Fan Club, which was a catalog (I think published by Pioneer) where you could order LDs by mail or phone. They started their own anime division (Anime Direct, I think it was called? It's been a while...) whose catalog (containing VHS and LDs) was semi-infamous for stealing their title descriptions straight out of Right Stuf's catalog. I think Right Stuf handled LDs back in the day, too, but I'm not 100% sure.
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Lemoncookies23



Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Posts: 355
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:04 am Reply with quote
erinfinnegan wrote:
Whether or not my labels were correct, this show only appeals to very specific groups of people.


And they would be... Question
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sokpupet



Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 133
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:12 am Reply with quote
I thought the One Piece review would be a point of contention, but apparently not Smile

Sanji bought the outfits for Nami and Vivi, so that explains that.

Baroque Works is all about secrecy and espionage, so the higher up agents being named after numbers and holidays works. They're also so unique in their designs that it would really be hard to confuse any of them.

I'm not happy there's only 11 episodes, and ending the set on 104 would have been a lot better. However, the episode with Bentham Bon Clay (Bon Clay Bentham?), AKA Mr. 2, is very important to the immediate plot, the arc finale plot, and a plot years down the line. But yes, the Ace fillers suck.

I can't say I usually agree with Erin's reviews, or even like them some of the time, but if I liked and agreed with every reviewer then I'd never get that all important second opinion.


Last edited by sokpupet on Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:18 am; edited 2 times in total
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Sarkozy



Joined: 28 Feb 2006
Posts: 132
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:18 am Reply with quote
I didn't like what I had seen of Spice and Wolf. Couldn't stand Holo and really couldn't stand Lawrence. The only redeemable quality I saw to S&W is the opening and ending songs. Everything else... nah.
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jenthehen



Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 835
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:18 am Reply with quote
Repeating myself a bit from the previous Spice and Wolf post, but ...

What made the show great for me was that while it could have easily fallen into the "magical girlfriend" genre, it did NOT. At all. For once, we have a multi-faceted female lead who is NOT just an anime trope. Holo's character surprised me time and again - she was not predictable at all. Further, she could take care of herself and even take care of Lawrence - unlike many shows where a powerful, strong, magical female is introduced and then needs to be OMG SAVED by the dorky male lead (who lacks power, no less) ... because, I don't know - SHE'S A GIRL AND NEEDS TO BE PROTECTED. Thank goodness Spice and Wolf was not another one of those ...

Holo is actually wise/intelligent, stubborn, proud, lonely, kind, protective, and so many other things - her personality is hashed out far more than your typical anime heroine. The romance in the story is also realistic and believable - none of this "I have found a naked magical girl and now I LOVE HER AND MUST PROTECT HER WITH MY LIFE" crap Rolling Eyes There are so many anime characters that just lack any real motivation. Spice and Wolf was different.

Spice and Wolf was an A+ in my book (an A, at least) and I can't wait for the second season.
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jenthehen



Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 835
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:19 am Reply with quote
JairStout wrote:
erinfinnegan wrote:
Whether or not my labels were correct, this show only appeals to very specific groups of people.


And they would be... Question


Intelligent people? Wink ... sorry, couldn't help myself!
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Shadowrun20XX



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 1935
Location: Vegas
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:23 am Reply with quote
b4k4ni04 wrote:
anywho the Spice and Wolf's OP had me sold after the first listen ^^;.
Agreed. The ED by Rocky Chack wasn't bad either.

erinfinnegan wrote:
Like, where did you buy laser discs back in the day? I know someone who's parents' had LDs at their videostore, but you couldn't like, order them online, could you? Did you rent them first? Buy shows blind?
Online? Wow. If you could afford a personal computer at the time. It was good ol' Human interaction. All day every day. You had to know someone who knew someone. If you wanted something other than Tenchi, A-ko or Shocked Battle Skipper. Yuck. spoiler[ EX:Way back in the day when Electronic Arts was starting, they had a projector room and a massive collection of Anime LDs. It's where I got one of my first massive intakes of Japanimation. Like you asked, They still wouldn't say. ]

erinfinnegan wrote:
Watch 'em at conventions?
At select times in small rooms, sure. Titles were few in between though. It's nothing like today. Who would watch them? There weren't kids at conventions yet. Seriously just a lot of 30-40 year olds bullshiting with each other.

@CCSYueh: Award for Coolest mom on the planet goes to. Very Happy

I love you're understanding of One Piece. I would call the story "epic" if the kids didn't already destroy it's meaning. Grand adventure, truly.


Last edited by Shadowrun20XX on Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:54 am; edited 2 times in total
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tuxedocat



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 2183
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:33 am Reply with quote
Quote:
Some weeks, everything is a rental. I realize that the parameters I've set for my reviews end up making a lot of things Rental Shelf, but I think that just means it's up to the reader to actually read my review and draw their own conclusions. Sometimes it's nice just to glance at a letter grade or the number of stars instead of actually reading a review, and I admit I occasionally do that. However, I think it's much more informative to read the body of the review. Spice and Wolf is a great example, because for the people in the center of the Venn diagram of interests, it's Shelf Worthy. For me, it's not, but you can only tell by reading the review.



Erin, I am thinking that it would be nice if those parameters could be re-tooled little bit more, since this is now your column. I'm only saying this because it seemed to me that Bamboo's parameters were skewed a bit differently when it came to what was "shelf worthy" and what went into the "rental shelf".

Your "Rental Shelf" seems to cover a lot more territory. It can be anything that barely tells a story (but has nice animation) to a good production with a good story (but priced too high), -- and everything in between.

I am reading your reviews, and while I enjoy them, I am not really getting a clear picture of where a title sits with you. The "rental shelf" seems to cover such a huge area I'm not really getting enough information.

Usually with reviewers I can get an idea of how much their tastes mesh with mine. This always helps me make informed decisions when I spend the $$$. Your "Rental Shelf" covers so much ground that I'm not always sure where you stand on a title. Maybe you could add a category... or something, like "almost expired" for the stuff that barely qualifies as a "rental" or "luxury item" for those titles that could be seen as a bit to expensive or have guilty-pleasure appeal. I don't really care how you do it, but I think you could make it something that would display your reviewing style better than the confines of what you inherited.

I also agree with the earlier person who said that since it is now your column - you should get a new banner (run a contest or something).
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