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Shelf Life - Road to El Cazador


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jenthehen



Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 451
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:34 pm Reply with quote
Even though I can't help but *like* Clannad on some level (part of it is the hype, the pretty animation, the cute girls, the tear-jerker, and just liking moe shows), I agree with what you have said about it.

Nagisa IS a really pathetic character, when you examine her more deeply. She's sweet and kind, but has no real ambition or drive that would make her a better lead for a work of fiction ... I do, however, know some folks who would be offended by this, though (people who only wanted to graduate high school, get married, and have a baby). But her personality is also kind of weak in After Story, even though I liked the "adult" nature of the 2nd half of After Story more than the first season. However, it drives me INSANE, that they still seemed to be giggly and embarrassed about sex / each other naked even after they were MARRIED. What the hell, anime industry? What the hell?

Anyway ... I'm sad that the Gunslinger Girl OVA has been reviewed so negatively here, since I love Gunslinger Girl ... I bought the OVA, but haven't watch it yet, as I haven't finished Il Teatrino yet - ahhh! Anyway ... I think part of the "tension" between the fratello characters in GSG is part of what makes it ... creepy realistic. I mean, some handlers are a big brother, some are like an unfeeling owner, some might have more prurient interests ... (although I think this comes up more in the manga w/ Petrushka who is a 16 year old Cyborg). I don't know, I'll have to watch it for myself.
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neocloud9



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
Posts: 1175
Location: Atlanta, GA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:52 pm Reply with quote
Cool, I think those were pretty fair reviews. Cool
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chrisb



Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 452
Location: TX, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:11 pm Reply with quote
jenthehen wrote:
However, it drives me INSANE, that they still seemed to be giggly and embarrassed about sex / each other naked even after they were MARRIED. What the hell, anime industry? What the hell?


THANK YOU! That's the main problem I have with After Story, I figure even Otaku would acknowledge that married couples don't act like it's their first date. It's still a sweet little tragic story, it just can't be taken too seriously I suppose.

I wonder if El Cazador does a Madlax and starts off weak but gets all epic in the 2nd half. I've already seen the first half so I'm waiting for a review of the 2nd to see if it's worth actually owning along with Noir and Madlax.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 12378
Location: NZL

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:30 pm Reply with quote
So Erin objected to the beach episode as being "wank-material". It's funny, because the entire concept of the show - having prepubescent girls carrying large guns and doing work better suited for males and adults (or both, A.K.A. men) - is pretty much "wank-material". There is no other reason to use cute young girls in such roles in the first place. Hence, my refusal to watch even the first season.
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jenthehen



Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 451
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:40 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
So Erin objected to the beach episode as being "wank-material". It's funny, because the entire concept of the show - having prepubescent girls carrying large guns and doing work better suited for males and adults (or both, A.K.A. men) - is pretty much "wank-material". There is no other reason to use cute young girls in such roles in the first place. Hence, my refusal to watch even the first season.


Wow ... you should really give the first season a chance. It's not what you think it is. It's heartbreaking, serious, and surprisingly believable. The emotions are raw, and it never delves into "wank material" (I assume we are referring to any kind of fan service or fan pandering? Yeah - it doesn't do that.)
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John Casey



Joined: 31 May 2009
Posts: 1853
Location: In My Angry Center

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:43 pm Reply with quote
Aaaaargh!!!! =_=;;

Somebody needs to take better care of their video games... Mad

Persona 2 Innocent Sin...the original first-print run of Digital Devil Saga... You don't just leave those out to...to lie around! Evil or Very Mad
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Ghstmtrx



Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Posts: 178

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:44 pm Reply with quote
Well you gotta remember that in CLANNAD that Tomoya and Nagisa are young when they get married and it seems that in the show none of the characters seem overly sexed up with hormones (except MAYBE Sunohara but that is more like a guess.) So in my mind when the topic of having a baby came up, yes it was a little embarrasing because, well simply, it was their first time. Not like in the real world where be just do it all the time reguardless of your emotional connection to your partner.

So what they are married, should their first time have been mechanical? Like "Well lets get this over with. We are married after all." Heh, I liked it the way it played out.

<---- CLANNAD Fanboi Razz

(Sorry to rant, I just had the urge to defend it, even though it seems that generally evenyone atleast enjoyed the show and that does make me happy Very Happy )
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GWOtaku



Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 599

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:57 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
So Erin objected to the beach episode as being "wank-material". It's funny, because the entire concept of the show - having prepubescent girls carrying large guns and doing work better suited for males and adults (or both, A.K.A. men) - is pretty much "wank-material". There is no other reason to use cute young girls in such roles in the first place. Hence, my refusal to watch even the first season.


Read this, this and this and learn better. I hate creepy fanbase pandering as much as anyone, but in this case your condemnation is really off of the mark. The girls' situation is disturbing, there's no doubt about that, but I never once felt that it was being fetishized in any way.
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PetrifiedJello



Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 3782

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:19 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
Hence, my refusal to watch even the first season.

Tsk, tsk. You're going to pay for this one, dtm42. I can see the pages ready to fill up now to challenge your position.

I don't envy you one bit.

Now, a great standing ovation and kudos to Erin's Shelf Life this week. I absolutely appreciate the level in which you addressed the reader in your position of the beach scene in the OVA. You gave us a reasonable definition on why you found it creepy, and that's what I felt had been missing.

Thank you for taking the time to address the non-otaku readers.

As for El Cazador, does the narration happen only at the beginning or is it throughout the episode? When I read this, I instantly thought of the same approach taken with Blade Runner and it was... ugh.

Also, between Noir and Madlax, which do you prefer? Would this series fall between them?

While I don't think either are great series, sometimes a nice slow-cooking series is just what the brain wants to mull over. Though, if the narration does it for me, I guess I'll watch for a price drop to pick it up.

Damn. Another review which pans the Il Teatrino OVA. Luckily, it didn't cost much, but both reviews agree it added nothing to the series. Big bummer, though I'm still trying to get past the massive and excruciating art changes of this season. My eyes are still bleeding.

And to EPPenguin, I need to ask where you got those shelves! I've been looking for something similar, but all I can find are the small versions. Those look perfect for what I'd like to set up.
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jenthehen



Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 451
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:23 pm Reply with quote
Ghstmtrx wrote:
Well you gotta remember that in CLANNAD that Tomoya and Nagisa are young when they get married and it seems that in the show none of the characters seem overly sexed up with hormones (except MAYBE Sunohara but that is more like a guess.) So in my mind when the topic of having a baby came up, yes it was a little embarrasing because, well simply, it was their first time. Not like in the real world where be just do it all the time reguardless of your emotional connection to your partner.

So what they are married, should their first time have been mechanical? Like "Well lets get this over with. We are married after all." Heh, I liked it the way it played out.

<---- CLANNAD Fanboi Razz

(Sorry to rant, I just had the urge to defend it, even though it seems that generally evenyone atleast enjoyed the show and that does make me happy Very Happy )


I think what bothered me more was in the flashback scene where it shows Nagisa reaching in to hand Tomoya soap in the bathroom and closing her eyes / acting all embarrassed - which clearly happened after they were married. That's just not normal in the real world. I can see them being a little shy for their first time ... but hadn't they been married awhile? What were they waiting for? Did they only sleep together once? I don't get this unrealistic portrayal of marriage / relationships here, Key! lol

They were never even shown kissing ... which was strange to me.
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Pneumekian



Joined: 09 Dec 2009
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:30 pm Reply with quote
I think you mean "Tomoya" when you write "Tomoyo" in your Clannad After Story review.

As for the review, I've seen CAS and I think I understand your view of Nagisa, although I feel very differently about it. I happen to be a man who likes more, for lack of a better word, "traditional" women and Nagisa seems to be catering to that preference. However, I can see how she would be boring or lacking in ambition to a more modern, independent woman. Well, different cups of tea, as you said.
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Lemoncookies23



Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:32 pm Reply with quote
In my worthless opinion, these "reviews" are terrible. It's like reading a glorified forum post (and that may even be too complimentary). At least Kimlinger, Martin, and the other reviewers here write with good prose. That is to say, they actually sound professional.

Erin, if you feel you must be use pejoratives and inject your petty morals into the reviews, then at least do so with class! The GG OVA is a "wank-fest?" Really? Smooth.... For the record, and unlike you, I have seen all of GG and plan on buying the OVA. Furthermore, I don't plan on masturbating to it, despite however much you think I should according to your supposed "morals."
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 12378
Location: NZL

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:35 pm Reply with quote
GWOtaku wrote:
I hate creepy fanbase pandering as much as anyone, but in this case your condemnation is really off of the mark. The girls' situation is disturbing, there's no doubt about that, but I never once felt that it was being fetishized in any way.


Yet, everything that any of the girls can do, so can a man. Or, if they really want a female, then pick a woman. Or, if they really need someone who is young and therefore underestimated by their opponents (a completely laughable idea which doesn't work in reality and even if it did it still wouldn't be a good tradeoff), then a teenage girl. But there is no reason for the girls to be that gender and that age in the first place, other than to appeal to certain fans.

I notice the story was originally a doujinshi; why am I not surprised?
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Ghstmtrx



Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Posts: 178

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:36 pm Reply with quote
jenthehen wrote:


I think what bothered me more was in the flashback scene where it shows Nagisa reaching in to hand Tomoya soap in the bathroom and closing her eyes / acting all embarrassed - which clearly happened after they were married. That's just not normal in the real world. I can see them being a little shy for their first time ... but hadn't they been married awhile? What were they waiting for? Did they only sleep together once? I don't get this unrealistic portrayal of marriage / relationships here, Key! lol

They were never even shown kissing ... which was strange to me.


Yeah, I can see your point here. It is a little unrealistic. But I find that that stuff kinda adds to the entertainment a bit (plus it is kinda cute if you like that stuff). But now that you said something. I am wracking my brain, and I can honestly say I don't remember them kissing either. That is also very strange, and I wonder why I did not notice.
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GWOtaku



Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 599

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:37 pm Reply with quote
JairStout wrote:
In my worthless opinion


Yup. Are you actually going to bother explaining why she's wrong? A prolonged insult isn't an argument.

dtm42 wrote:

Yet, everything that any of the girls can do, so can a man. Or, if they really want a female, then pick a woman. Or, if they really need someone who is young and therefore underestimated by their opponents (a completely laughable idea which doesn't work in reality and even if it did it still wouldn't be a good tradeoff), then a teenage girl. But there is no reason for the girls to be that gender and that age in the first place, other than to appeal to certain fans.


I wouldn't say it's laughable. A father and daughter traveling together is about as unsuspicious and innocuous as it gets. In any event, it may be some creepy fans find a certain appeal in the idea, but that doesn't make it a deliberate pander in and of itself. Heck maybe some place out there a few nutjobs fetishize the girls in, say, Haibane Renmei for their wings, but that wouldn't transform it into a "fanwank" show by default.
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