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penguintruth



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:50 pm Reply with quote
Badkarma 1 wrote:
penguinoftruth(oxymoron?probably!)


Poor troll or just poor poster? You decide, ANN!
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Badkarma 1



Joined: 05 Dec 2009
Posts: 21
Location: East St. Louis Il.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:58 pm Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:
Badkarma 1 wrote:
penguinoftruth(oxymoron?probably!)


Poor troll or just poor poster? You decide, ANN!
Crappy computer! As for the troll part,well we're all here to say what we wanna say and that's what I did. You gotta problem with it too bad! Besides if ya can't take the heat stay outta the kitchen!
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Kakugo



Joined: 29 Nov 2007
Posts: 163

PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:14 am Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:
John K. is a douchebag.


And you're a Jimmy.


One of the most fascinating 2 hours I've spent in my headphones. Thank you, Zac and Justin, for getting a mountain of an interview with one of the most important - and controversial - figures to ever leave his stamp on the industry.

I certainly don't think that everything Macek did with the properties he exploited "improved" them, but I'd be lying if I didn't acknowledge Vampire Hunter D, Robot Carnival, Fist of the North Star, Akira, and Wicked City as my "gateway" anime, and I can't imagine what my adolescent life would have been like without them. For that, I thank him. It's just cartoons, but they still meant a lot to me, and I'm glad I had the opportunity to find them because of Macek and men like him.

Like it or loathe it, the Harmony Gold and Streamline models worked better than anything that's arrived since at making anime both profitable and accessible. Macek not bothering with subtitled videos because he knew the fans wanting it subtitled had already seen it - and thus weren't really his market - was a stance I could never even come up with, much less agree with, but at least it makes dramatically better business sense than the "fan oriented" market we've watched cannibalize itself to the bare bones over the last few years.

Damn, now I want to see Macek's Harlock...
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ABetterTimeandPlace



Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:31 am Reply with quote
Kakugo wrote:
Like it or loathe it, the Harmony Gold and Streamline models worked better than anything that's arrived since at making anime both profitable and accessible. Macek not bothering with subtitled videos because he knew the fans wanting it subtitled had already seen it - and thus weren't really his market - was a stance I could never even come up with, much less agree with, but at least it makes dramatically better business sense than the "fan oriented" market we've watched cannibalize itself to the bare bones over the last few years.


Funimation and Viz Media are still in the business of getting new anime on American television and in theaters, while Harmony Gold and Streamline Pictures are doing neither now. Harmony Gold and Streamline Pictures had about a decade when their respective business models worked, but even Harmony Gold acknowledges that its old business practices no longer worked--no more Captain Harlock and the Queen of a Thousand Years. (Presumably, Macek also acknowledges this, since in the end, even Streamline Pictures released subtitled anime.)
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lkmjr



Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 65
Location: Austin, Texas

PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 1:08 am Reply with quote
Wow. My opinion of this guy has risen after listening to this. I was under the impression he was just some jerk who didn't really "get" anime and was attempting to slice it up and stitch it back together for the sake of money. My apologies, he's actually a pretty cool guy. I didn't know he had so much to do with making anime mainstream in America.

Gotta disagree with his comment regarding subtitles, though – images aren't the only thing there is to a series or movie, and having words on top isn't ruining it in any way. Certain things can vary a lot between the Japanese and English dubs, and because I tend to like the Japanese version better I usually watch with subtitles.
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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 12680

PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 1:10 am Reply with quote
ABTAP:
Quote:
Macross gave Max and Milia a daughter in 1983.


I didn't see that on the show or DYRL.

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Voltron wasn't?


It made money, but it's not a merchandising phenomenon which extends to this day.

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For every DYRL and 7, there is a Macross Plus and Macross II anime that wasn't stuck in licensing hell.


But no one would have brought those over if Robotech wasn't a success, or stuck with some third-rate licensor.

Quote:
Actually, it was Harmony Gold who tried to stop Macross Plus toy sales in America in 1999 in an attempt to get profit off it, and that led to the current legal mess.


The current legal mess has been building up for years. The reason it went to court in Japan was because of home video rights in association with DVD.

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Names changed from one episode to the next, and story concepts were mistranslated like "reflex." In other words, Streamline Pictures introduced into the original anime's subs some of the same errors that Harmony Gold put into Robotech.


Fair enough. But selling subbed shows was a recent concept at that time.

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Before that, Studio Nue and Big West were making and exporting Macross Plus and Macross II without interference from Tatsunoko or Harmony Gold.


So if we got M+ and M2 over here, then that means that HG wasn't the problem. As for the Robotech changes, those seem like minor details, since I still don't see any major story changes. The pre-emptive strike thing was a norm throughout the friggin' show, given that the Macross pilots had to be on constant alert, even when they finally made it to Earth.

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Funimation and Viz Media are still in the business of getting new anime on American television and in theaters,


And for every DBZ or Naruto those companies score hits with, they have a lot more Hikaru No Gos and Big Wind-Ups which don't ever get past first base. And their distribution models for theatrical anime are awful. You're basically paying a ticket price for a friggin' dvd recording on a projector most of the time.
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CareyGrant



Joined: 18 Nov 2009
Posts: 451

PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 1:26 am Reply with quote
ABetterTimeandPlace wrote:
Kakugo wrote:
Like it or loathe it, the Harmony Gold and Streamline models worked better than anything that's arrived since at making anime both profitable and accessible. Macek not bothering with subtitled videos because he knew the fans wanting it subtitled had already seen it - and thus weren't really his market - was a stance I could never even come up with, much less agree with, but at least it makes dramatically better business sense than the "fan oriented" market we've watched cannibalize itself to the bare bones over the last few years.


Funimation and Viz Media are still in the business of getting new anime on American television and in theaters, while Harmony Gold and Streamline Pictures are doing neither now. Harmony Gold and Streamline Pictures had about a decade when their respective business models worked, but even Harmony Gold acknowledges that its old business practices no longer worked--no more Captain Harlock and the Queen of a Thousand Years. (Presumably, Macek also acknowledges this, since in the end, even Streamline Pictures released subtitled anime.)


Was I the only one tripping over Macek's ego? I don't deny his contributions/impact, but... yeah, wasn't diggin' it. That and, was it me or did he sound a bit like Edward James Olmos? (I heard Olmos speak at my Alma Mater - great orator)

Anyway...

Of course all of Streamline/Hormony's projects/business model made money, THEY WERE PRETTY MUCH THE ONLY GAME IN TOWN! We're talking very pre-internet, long before anime became mainstream.

There was no streaming. No fan sites. No internet mail order or fansub websites. All the things we take for granted about the information glut that we live in thanks to the internet simply didn't exist. Back then, who in the US knew about Anime? In the "dark days" the avg. Joe had to know people who knew people to get anime (often with very suspect quality). That's of course assuming he/she knew anything about anime at all beside hearsay, or that it even existed or where to find it. Grain of salt people -of course they made money!

What's more, besides Akira and VH D, most of the stuff they released wasn't that good, but it had that novelty appeal of something we just didn't have here and never'd seen before in American cartoons.

With a few exceptions, none of those shows (besides Akira + VH D) would stand against what's been released in the last 10 to 12 years. I'd argue their appeal is mostly nostalgic for those fans and collectors who remember when they were first released.

I'm sure the older or hardcore fans/collectors loved this interview, but to me it was very long-winded and boring. I'd have much rather listened to a few other AnnCasts go longer (e.g. Chad Kime, for instance) than this.
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Vicserr



Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 476
Location: Carolina, Puerto Rico USA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:10 am Reply with quote
ABetterTimeandPlace wrote:
GATSU wrote:
ABTAP:
Quote:
but one who takes creative credit that is not necessarily all his.


I like how they claim that he wasn't creative, even though the Japanese later used his idea of giving Max and Miriya a daughter.


Macross gave Max and Milia a daughter in 1983. Robotech was produced in 1985.


He probabky meant a "Grown Up Daughter"', Robotech didi that first

Quote:
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Robotech was the first anime which not only proved successful on tv but became a merchandising phenomenon to this day.


Voltron wasn't?


Matchbox did the toys for both Voltron(before Panosh Place took over with their horrible lions and action figures) and Robotech, i think the shows overlapped in the 80's

And why the Dunbine hate, this show was hot in the 80's, or is this the Macek hate and/or the modern R1 fan dislike of mecha titles talking here?

Zac and Justin have no mind set for Space Adventure Cobra, this and the Go Nagai revival shows (New Getter Robo, Kotetsu Shin Jeeg and Shin Mazinger Z) are made that way to make fans feek kike the never left the 70's.A seriesI doenn't have to be ironic or wink at the audience, we like them that way, I didn't know the space opera was so exploited.

Mr Macek did his job and was successful, and his works are products of their time. Was Lady Death Savagable?, probably if the work was better supervised it could have worked, even if you hate the man (as aparently the ADV crowd did), you should appreciate his vast experience .
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ikillchicken
Space CowboySpace Cowboy


Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7029
Location: Vancouver

PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:30 am Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:
The thing is, other people were already doing what he did and I don't see or hear them painting themselves as heroes. Has Macek heard of a guy named Frederik L. Schodt? Peter Fernandez? Sandy Frank? He's probably heard of World Events Productions, since they did Voltron.


Sure there were others. I don't think any of them can compare to his impact though. If you want to talk about titles that really spawned a mainstream fanbase for anime, Robotech and Akira* have got to be right up there near the top and the way he positioned and marketed them is a big part of that.

*Not to mention numerous other titles he was involved with.

Quote:
Bad dubs were necessary back in the day to meet standards and practices, to extend anime's range, but you're saying that bad dubs will help save anime now, when the standards we have are higher?


No, I generally doubt it. My point is more so that I would be willing to tolerate people like him treating anime slightly more like a product if it meant they were able to achieve the kind of success he did.

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So, what's the ratio we should have, then? For every Darker than Black dub we should have two Dragon Ball Z dubs (I realize that both are by the same company)?


Well actually, if a 'DBZ dub' meant the show could achieve the popularity of DBZ then I certainly wouldn't mind a few of them. Of course, that would only really apply to a handful of shows.

ABetterTimeandPlace wrote:
Despite early mistakes, Funimation and Viz Media are proof of that.


Eh...Funi and Viz are proof that if you're lucky enough to acquire a huge cash cow or two and just don't shoot yourself in the foot too bad you can ride that success to a strong market position.
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ABetterTimeandPlace



Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:45 am Reply with quote
Vicserr wrote:
ABetterTimeandPlace wrote:
GATSU wrote:
ABTAP:
Quote:
but one who takes creative credit that is not necessarily all his.


I like how they claim that he wasn't creative, even though the Japanese later used his idea of giving Max and Miriya a daughter.


Macross gave Max and Milia a daughter in 1983. Robotech was produced in 1985.


He probabky meant a "Grown Up Daughter"', Robotech didi that first


Thanks to Robotech's compressed timeline, Dana Sterling was only 16 years old in the second generation--not that grown-up. Given that Macross not only has one daughter of Max and Milia in 1983, but two daughters in a 1984 short story set in the future of Macross, it's a moot point.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Robotech was the first anime which not only proved successful on tv but became a merchandising phenomenon to this day.


Voltron wasn't?


Matchbox did the toys for both Voltron(before Panosh Place took over with their horrible lions and action figures) and Robotech, i think the shows overlapped in the 80's


Voltron's 1984 airing and toys predated Robotech's 1985 airing and toys. As Macek acknowledged in this interview, Voltron's daily TV success precipitated Harmony Gold's desire to have Macross on daily TV.
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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 12680

PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:55 am Reply with quote
ABTAP: Fine. I'll explain a little more the differences between the shows. What Voltron did for children who were gonna buy toys anyway, Robotech managed to do for older audiences who probably thought they were too old to watch cartoons. As for Macross, I don't know of any short story spin-offs or daughters until 7.
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penguintruth



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:57 am Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
Well actually, if a 'DBZ dub' meant the show could achieve the popularity of DBZ then I certainly wouldn't mind a few of them. Of course, that would only really apply to a handful of shows.


The DBZ dub succeeded only because, even with the cuts and watered down script, it was still one of the edgiest cartoons airing on American television for a while. Not because it was dumbed down.

As for these days, 4Kids tried giving One Piece the treatment Funimation gave DBZ. That worked out real well, didn't it?

Yes, it is hilariously ironic that it was Funimation who saved One Piece. It's also proof that the company has learned that anime fans have different standards now.

Though sadly, there are still many fans of the DBZ dub to this day. I figure there are probably even fans of the 4Kids dub of One Piece.
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ABetterTimeandPlace



Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:37 am Reply with quote
GATSU wrote:
ABTAP:
Quote:
Macross gave Max and Milia a daughter in 1983.


I didn't see that on the show or DYRL.


Now we know that you didn't watch the original Macross as you claimed. The daughter appeared in several episodes of the original Macross series. One of the episodes was named after the daughter.

Quote:
Quote:
Voltron wasn't?


It made money, but it's not a merchandising phenomenon which extends to this day.


Number of episodes in 1984: 125 episodes (40 more than Robotech, and one year earlier)
Toys: Matchbox (before Robotech)
Television sequel with toy tie-in: 26 episodes in 1998 (Robotech never got another television series)
Live-action film deal: 2005 (two years before Robotech)
Comics in 1985, 2002, and 2008: Yes
Cartoon Network airing in 2006: Yes
Toys by Toynami now: Yes
DVDs now: Yes
Game, t-shirts, bookends, figures, cards now: Yes

That seems to qualify as a merchandising success.

Quote:
Quote:
For every DYRL and 7, there is a Macross Plus and Macross II anime that wasn't stuck in licensing hell.


But no one would have brought those over if Robotech wasn't a success, or stuck with some third-rate licensor.


So much for avoiding unprovable speculation...So only third-rate licensors would have brought non-Robotech-related anime over? Someone should notify all the U.S. anime companies that only third-rate licensors brought non-Robotech-related anime over.

Quote:
Quote:
Actually, it was Harmony Gold who tried to stop Macross Plus toy sales in America in 1999 in an attempt to get profit off it, and that led to the current legal mess.


The current legal mess has been building up for years. The reason it went to court in Japan was because of home video rights in association with DVD.


Please stop spreading false information about court cases you haven't read. The 2000 lawsuit mentioned nothing about "home video rights in association with DVD."

Quote:
Fair enough. But selling subbed shows was a recent concept at that time.


AnimEigo, U.S. Renditions, and Pioneer were releasing subtitled anime without the problems that Streamline's subs had.

Quote:
So if we got M+ and M2 over here, then that means that HG wasn't the problem.


Remember the date 1999. Macross Plus and Macross II were released before 1999. Then Harmony Gold demanded everything with the name Macross on it outside Japan in 1999. That's why no more new Macross anime were released in the United States after 1999.

Quote:
As for the Robotech changes, those seem like minor details, since I still don't see any major story changes.


Changing the motivation of the enemy is minor?
Changing the fate of characters of who lived or died is minor?
Changing the series finale from peaceful colonization to preemptive strike is minor?
Inserting footage from another anime and changing the premise of the final episodes is minor?
Destroying the ship that inspired the name of the anime is minor?


Quote:
And for every DBZ or Naruto those companies score hits with, they have a lot more Hikaru No Gos and Big Wind-Ups which don't ever get past first base. And their distribution models for theatrical anime are awful. You're basically paying a ticket price for a friggin' dvd recording on a projector most of the time.


Wait, Harmony Gold used the same digital theater distribution system a few years ago, and it also had a worse hit-to-miss ratio. By this criteria, Harmony Gold would be no better and arguably worse.
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ABetterTimeandPlace



Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:44 am Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
No, I generally doubt it. My point is more so that I would be willing to tolerate people like him treating anime slightly more like a product if it meant they were able to achieve the kind of success he did.


And yet, Funimation and Viz's sucess demonstrates that we don't have treat anime the way Macek did. The biggest irony? Macek has been working for Viz's contractor on Bleach. So arguably, Macek is one of many who had to adapt to the new market conditions.

Quote:
Eh...Funi and Viz are proof that if you're lucky enough to acquire a huge cash cow or two and just don't shoot yourself in the foot too bad you can ride that success to a strong market position.


Is there a non-biased reason to dismiss Funimation and Viz's hard-won success this way, when the same is no less true of Harmony Gold and Streamline Pictures?
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ikillchicken
Space CowboySpace Cowboy


Joined: 12 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:06 am Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:
The DBZ dub succeeded only because, even with the cuts and watered down script, it was still one of the edgiest cartoons airing on American television for a while. Not because it was dumbed down.

As for these days, 4Kids tried giving One Piece the treatment Funimation gave DBZ. That worked out real well, didn't it?


Don't try to straw man. You've conveniently omitted the rest of my post and chosen instead to attack only the weakest argument. I myself said, if the dub helped. Admittedly it is debatable. I'm inclined to think that at least some aspects did. After all, had it been left unedited it would never have been able to run in the time slots it did and would have had a much harder time reaching the audience it really clicked with. Also, it takes no more than a brief look at the edited versions of both DBZ and OP to understand why the former was seen as cool and edgy and the latter was quickly dismissed as a goofy kiddie show.

Look though, it's largely beside the point. The underlying thing I'm saying here (as I explained in one of the parts of my post you ignored) is that I'm not talking specifically about any one issue. These days it's pretty questionable whether heavy edits would be any help. I think it's clear that it was helpful back in Macek's day and what I'm saying is that I don't outright reject the idea of anime being treated as a product and not some sacred cow. I think what he did was for the best and so I support it and I'd still support such a philosophy today in principle at least to a minor extent if the benefits were right. Admittedly though, it is debatable how it could be applied to today's market.

ABetterTimeandPlace wrote:
Is there a non-biased reason to dismiss Funimation and Viz's hard-won success this way, when the same is no less true of Harmony Gold and Streamline Pictures?


Ad Hominem won't get you anywhere. I explained my valid reasoning but I shall explain it again in greater detail. I would hardly call either company's success 'hard won'. Funimation and Viz are reasonably competent companies. Viz is largely unremarkable though. They pick up only the biggest of big name properties that are guaranteed to turn a profit. They do a competent job releasing them. That's about it. There's really not much more to be said on the matter. Funimation is also reasonably competent but only the major player they are today because of the incompetence of the competition. By simply being half decent (and having access to the massive revenues from DBZ) they were able to pick up the pieces after ADV and Geneon went down in flames. Look, don't get me wrong here. I don't dislike these companies. I just don't feel like they really deserve to be congratulated as if they're so great. Despite their respective positions they haven't really done that much to improve the mainstream appeal of anime. Although, I'll give them major credit for their recent moves toward streaming video.

Quote:
And yet, Funimation and Viz's sucess demonstrates that we don't have treat anime the way Macek did. The biggest irony? Macek has been working for Viz's contractor on Bleach. So arguably, Macek is one of many who had to adapt to the new market conditions.


Arguably their only show to achieve the same fame as Robotech or Akria is DBZ which did get the chop treatment. In any case, their success demonstrates nothing more than that times change. It's easy for Viz to pump out Bleach or Naruto now that there's a decent established fanbase for anime. You're mistaken if you think the same tactic would have worked in the past.
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