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ikillchicken
Space CowboySpace Cowboy


Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 6759
Location: Vancouver

PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 9:56 pm Reply with quote
ABetterTimeandPlace wrote:
May you point out the reason for the ad hominem charge? And again, just about everything you said about Funimation and Viz can be applied to Harmony Gold and Streamline Pictures. Again, Is there a non-biased reason to dismiss Funimation and Viz's hard-won success this way, when the same is no less true of Harmony Gold and Streamline Pictures?


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Viz should know--it's nearly a quarter of a century old and older than Streamline Pictures. Why keep dismissing Viz as a company of today when it did the same trench work bringing manga and anime into America in the 1980s and 1990s?


Asking for 'non-biased' reasons is just a backhanded way of attacking my credibility. As to why HG and Streamline are different, it's all about timing. Viz may have been founded way back in the 80s but it was also originally a manga company. If you want to talk about manga that's sort of a different discussion. They didn't even start expanding into anime distribution until much later. They did Ranma 1/2 in the 90's and a few other minor titles but it was distinctly after the mainstream market was really jump started by titles like Robotech and Akira. In fact, Viz really only came in as a more major player once the anime industry was in mid boom at the turn of the century as is the case with funimation. At this point there was a very established market for anime and these companies simply capitalized on it. What Macek did was come in and really bring anime to the mainstream before there was really any market for it there. Not only that, he did it through smart marketing and positioning. (The podcast contains many great examples of this.)

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I don't think anyone argued that today's business practices would have worked in the past. I was pointing out that Harmony Gold and Streamline Pictures' tactics won't work now.


Okay, you really didn't make that clear. You said "And yet, Funimation and Viz's sucess demonstrates that we don't have treat anime the way Macek did." You probably should have said "...the way Macek did anymore." Especially since you were responding to me saying that I did not think edited dubs would work today. So really, your point is redundant in any case.

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There's also Naruto, Pokemon, and Afro Samurai.


Naruto is popular but it's never been able to touch DBZ. Afro Samurai sold well but was quickly forgotten. Didn't Viz only handle distribution for Pokemon and 4 kids did the localization?

GATSU wrote:
And that sequel bombed just as bad as the original sequel. Even Beast Wars kicked its ass, and Beast Wars is basically Transformers for furry fans.


Of course you realize that Beast Wars is fantastic. Vastly better than Transformers ever was.
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ABetterTimeandPlace



Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:04 pm Reply with quote
GATSU wrote:
But Macek still deserves credit for the whole concept of revolving a sequel around their kid.


So the biggest proof of claimed creativity of Macek was merely connecting a daughter, who already existed in several episodes and a short story sequel that predate Robotech, to another series? Never mind the nagging issue of saying a blond-haired girl was born a green-haired girl ....

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Number of episodes in 1984: 125 episodes (40 more than Robotech, and one year earlier)


That's only because the American company over-paid for 'em. And no one's willing to buy that sequel, either. People might be a bit more ambivalent about Southern Cross and Mospeada and Macross, but those things still sell.

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Television sequel with toy tie-in: 26 episodes in 1998 (Robotech never got another television series)


And that sequel bombed just as bad as the original sequel. Even Beast Wars kicked its ass, and Beast Wars is basically Transformers for furry fans.


No one is saying that the 1985 American-created Voltron episodes and Voltron: The Third Dimension were as successful as the first Voltron series. But Voltron did something in 1985 and 1998 that Robotech still hasn't: actually put two sequel series, produced from scratch and not from "found footage," on American broadcast television. If these are failures even though both were nationally broadcasted with toy tie-ins, what does that make Robotech II: The Sentinels and Robotech 3000?

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Live-action film deal: 2005 (two years before Robotech)


A deal of questionable legality, but that doesn't matter. Rolling Eyes


Does Voltron have legal issues. Sure. But why raise that issue, but turn a blind eye to the legalities of Robotech?

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Robotech has more comics, CN airings, and a video game franchise.
The DVDs don't appear to be helping MBs bottom line, if we're getting the episodes for free. The assorted merchandise doesn't seem to be in demand, either.


The last time Robotech was on Cartoon Network was in 2003. For all of three days. Is it a "franchise" when it consisted of three games, two of which were heavily panned and the last of which was six years ago? Remember, all Robotech episodes are available for free on YouTube.

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So only third-rate licensors would have brought non-Robotech-related anime over?


Given that that was the norm, yes.

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The 2000 lawsuit mentioned nothing about "home video rights in association with DVD."

But that's obviously a sticking point.


Please refrain from unprovable speculation. Again, may you please provide proof of your claims?

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AnimEigo, U.S. Renditions, and Pioneer were releasing subtitled anime without the problems that Streamline's subs had.


You look at Animeigo's history, it took them a while to get the sub thing down. And Geneon censored the cussing in Bastard. As for U.S. Renditions, the company generally only subbed the openings and endings for most of its properties.


Can we criticize AnimEigo, U.S. Renditions, and Pioneer's subtitling efforts on these points? Sure. Can we also note that Streamline Pictures' subtitling efforts had these same faults and more, even though Streamline's subs came after the other companies' subs? Definitely.

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Macross Plus and Macross II were released before 1999. Then Harmony Gold demanded everything with the name Macross on it outside Japan in 1999. That's why no more new Macross anime were released in the United States after 1999.


If that were the case, then HG would release all the recent Macross anime on its own.


Harmony Gold and Tatsunoko claim they have all the overseas rights, but they don't have their hands on the actual footage since they weren't involved at all in their productions. Hense, the lawsuits.

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The enemies still want to destroy Earth, because they're born war-mongers. The characters who lived or died still did so for the sake of defending the planet. And the show never ended with a peaceful colonization, just an uneasy truce.


The cognitive dissonance here is astounding. If someone besides Harmony Gold had taken an anime and changed the enemy's motivations, changed who lived or died, changed the entire ending, inserted footage from another anime, and destroyed the namesake of the anime...wouldn't you and others be the first to say these are not minor changes and criticize the changes?

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What new market conditions? Bleach proves his point about how you have to build an audience for the anime, in order to justify selling it. Again, look what happened with Hikaru No Go, Mar and PoT.


For starters, providing the subtitled option early on, and keeping "ethnic gestures" instead of editing them out. Keep in mind that Macek is just writing some of the English dubbing scripts. He is not involved in the marketing of Bleach to "prove" any points there.

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FUNimation's success wasn't hard-won. Their efforts to promote DB were a failure, and Z's the only reason they're on the map today. HG and Macek, OTOH, were doing alright before RT came along. Viz, otoh, was barely getting by until the Shueisha deal.


So Funimation efforts to promote Dragon Ball Z were not hard-won? And Viz was "barely getting by" in the age of Ranma, Pokemon, and Inuyasha? Why are we rewriting other companies' histories just to make Harmony Gold look good?
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ABetterTimeandPlace



Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:05 am Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
Asking for 'non-biased' reasons is just a backhanded way of attacking my credibility. As to why HG and Streamline are different, it's all about timing. Viz may have been founded way back in the 80s but it was also originally a manga company. If you want to talk about manga that's sort of a different discussion. They didn't even start expanding into anime distribution until much later. They did Ranma 1/2 in the 90's and a few other minor titles but it was distinctly after the mainstream market was really jump started by titles like Robotech and Akira. In fact, Viz really only came in as a more major player once the anime industry was in mid boom at the turn of the century as is the case with funimation. At this point there was a very established market for anime and these companies simply capitalized on it. What Macek did was come in and really bring anime to the mainstream before there was really any market for it there. Not only that, he did it through smart marketing and positioning.

Asking for the lack of bias was not intended as an ad hominem attack, but an actual request. I want to emphasize: no personal offense was intended.

Streamline Pictures didn't create Akira's popularity in a vacuum. It capitalized on Akira manga's existing popularity when it was published by an imprint of Marvel, one of the two biggest comic companies. As Baltimoron noted, many fans only found out about Streamline's Akira anime release by seeing the ads in the manga. Why dismiss Viz's manga roots, when Viz co-spearheaded the manga movement that later led to Marvel jumping onto the bandwagon, which led to Streamline Pictures jumping onto the bandwagon? We can't treat anime and manga as isolated entities, especially with this title.

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I don't think anyone argued that today's business practices would have worked in the past. I was pointing out that Harmony Gold and Streamline Pictures' tactics won't work now.


Okay, you really didn't make that clear. You said "And yet, Funimation and Viz's sucess demonstrates that we don't have treat anime the way Macek did." You probably should have said "...the way Macek did anymore." Especially since you were responding to me saying that I did not think edited dubs would work today. So really, your point is redundant in any case.
I

Edited dubs is just one of Macek's tactics that would no longer work today. The lack of subtitled options is another crucial one that even Streamlines Pictures relented, even if halfheartedly and imperfectly.

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There's also Naruto, Pokemon, and Afro Samurai.


Naruto is popular but it's never been able to touch DBZ. Afro Samurai sold well but was quickly forgotten. Didn't Viz only handle distribution for Pokemon and 4 kids did the localization?


Naruto's popularity in comparison to Dragon Ball Z is a difficult to guage, but remember Naruto is still on national television and its manga is consistently on New York Times and USA Today's bestseller list. Afro Samurai was so quickly forgotten...that a sequel movie was made last year with more Hollywood talent, the anime industry's first Emmy award, and the company CEO specifically singling out Afro Samurai as an "A" property alongside Dragon Ball. As for Viz's distribution of Pokemon, remember that Macek acknowledged that Akira wasn't localized by Streamline Pictures either.
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ikillchicken
Space CowboySpace Cowboy


Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 6759
Location: Vancouver

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:17 am Reply with quote
ABetterTimeandPlace wrote:
Asking for the lack of bias was not intended as an ad hominem attack, but an actual request. I want to emphasize: no personal offense was intended.


Um...okay. It's just, the fact that you feel you have to ask implies that you expect my reasoning to be biased. Generally it would be more polite to just give a person the benefit of the doubt that they have a valid, non-biased reason. If you really didn't mean anything by it though then I'll certainly let it go.

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Streamline Pictures didn't create Akira's popularity in a vacuum. It capitalized on Akira manga's existing popularity when it was published by an imprint of Marvel, one of the two biggest comic companies. As Baltimoron noted, many fans only found out about Streamline's Akira anime release by seeing the ads in the manga.


Yeah, I suppose that's true. Still, it was heavily because of Macek that Marvel threw their weight behind promoting the Akira movie.

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Why dismiss Viz's manga roots, when Viz co-spearheaded the manga movement that later led to Marvel jumping onto the bandwagon, which led to Streamline Pictures jumping onto the bandwagon? We can't treat anime and manga as isolated entities, especially with this title.


Well, I certainly don't want to diminish Viz impact on the manga world and I agree, the two are somewhat intertwined. Still, I'd hardly say the Streamline jumped on the bandwagon just because manga had gained a foothold. Especially in the earlier days with Robotech. This, among other early anime probably helped the blossoming manga industry more than they helped anime.

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Edited dubs is just one of Macek's tactics that would no longer work today. The lack of subtitled options is another crucial one that even Streamlines Pictures relented, even if halfheartedly and imperfectly.


Oh, okay. That didn't occur to me because with current technology, this issue is rather moot. Both options can be given without difficulty.

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As for Viz's distribution of Pokemon, remember that Macek acknowledged that Akira wasn't localized by Streamline Pictures either.


Yes, but they played a much larger role than Viz did with pokemon. Viz part in the coming of the massive marketing machine that was pokemon was really extremely small. Other more established companies were by far the primary force behind it.

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Afro Samurai was so quickly forgotten...that a sequel movie was made last year with more Hollywood talent, the anime industry's first Emmy award, and the company CEO specifically singling out Afro Samurai as an "A" property alongside Dragon Ball.


Yeah, it sells quite well but it doesn't seem to have the same iconic quality as other shows. I mean, when was the last time you met someone who thought Afro Samurai was like one of the coolest things ever. Someone who was a real Afro Samurai fanboy. Those other shows really blew people away. Afro didn't.

To be fair though, that may be more of a simple time frame issue again. People were blown away by Akira because it was good but also just because they'd never seen anything like it before. In retrospect, I kind of regret going down this line of argument because it's rather beside the point. My belief is based more on how Macek largely created a mainstream fanbase from nothing whereas Funi and Viz have just built on that fanbase.
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Badkarma 1



Joined: 05 Dec 2009
Posts: 21
Location: East St. Louis Il.

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:04 am Reply with quote
I just relistened to the cast and it occured to me;where was Zac?! He was really quiet during this one!
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Prede



Joined: 17 Sep 2009
Posts: 377

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:10 am Reply with quote
Baltimoron wrote:
A career-spanning retrospective over two hours in length and the man admits not even one mistake, misstep, or failure. That says a lot about Macek's personality. He's a fun guy to listen to, but I get the feeling everything he says should be taken with a tablespoon of salt and compared to others' perspectives on whatever topic is at hand. And I'm saying this as someone who doesn't care about Robotech or its source material.



No offense to anyone, but I felt the same way. At first I wanted to believe his every word, but after thinking about everything he said, i do question him a bit. Also he seems to disown himself from any wrongdoing, and enjoys taking credit for anything he can. "I tought ADV how to do ADR" - frankly untrue, from what I heard, he tought them a DIFFERENT way to do ADR. Perhaps a "better way", but the way he puts it, makes them seem like a couple kids fandubbing before he got there. I'm sure he helped them out, no doubt. But come on. Also "I tought the music guys at Sony how to do audio/music" . I believe him on this, but that is quite a claim, and he is again taking credit for something here...

I respect the man, I like the guy, and I am very happy he helped to get anime to where it is today. He seems to be a very nice, down to earth dude, with great ideas. He knew what he was doing too. I enjoyed listening to him. And I have no big beaf with him. But some things he said, I would take with a grain of salt. There's always another point of view mind you. I'm sure Sony see's things differently. Same with ADV...


Last edited by Prede on Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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ABetterTimeandPlace



Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:14 am Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
Well, I certainly don't want to diminish Viz impact on the manga world and I agree, the two are somewhat intertwined. Still, I'd hardly say the Streamline jumped on the bandwagon just because manga had gained a foothold. Especially in the earlier days with Robotech. This, among other early anime probably helped the blossoming manga industry more than they helped anime.


Translated manga in America didn't predate translated anime in America, but translated manga predated Robotech and Streamline Pictures. Educomics published Barefoot Gen in English in 1981.

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Edited dubs is just one of Macek's tactics that would no longer work today. The lack of subtitled options is another crucial one that even Streamlines Pictures relented, even if halfheartedly and imperfectly.


Oh, okay. That didn't occur to me because with current technology, this issue is rather moot. Both options can be given without difficulty.


Exactly. Times have changed, and thus Macek's unique business tactics back then do not necessarily apply now.

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Yes, but they played a much larger role than Viz did with pokemon. Viz part in the coming of the massive marketing machine that was pokemon was really extremely small. Other more established companies were by far the primary force behind it.


There are bigger companies with slices of the Pokemon pie, but Pokemon is a much, much bigger pie than Akira ever was. The ratio is different, but the amount of responsibility isn't that much different.

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Yeah, it sells quite well but it doesn't seem to have the same iconic quality as other shows. I mean, when was the last time you met someone who thought Afro Samurai was like one of the coolest things ever. Someone who was a real Afro Samurai fanboy. Those other shows really blew people away. Afro didn't.


Surprisingly for established anime fans, they do exist. There are people who think Afro Samurai is one of the coolest things they have ever seen. They are the ones who made Afro Samurai Funimation's top-selling anime DVD of 2007 with 4.5 million dollars. More importantly, they are the ones expanding the anime fanbase.

Afro Samurai's popularity and iconic status doesn't come from existing anime fans like us; it comes from casual fans who stumble upon a Samuel L. Jackson plug, the soundtrack, a Spike TV airing, a DVD rental, or the game, and end up raving about it to friends. But that's sort of the point of gateway anime--"evergreen anime," if you will. They don't need to make established anime fans like us rave about it. They make non-fans and casual fans rave about it.

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To be fair though, that may be more of a simple time frame issue again. People were blown away by Akira because it was good but also just because they'd never seen anything like it before. In retrospect, I kind of regret going down this line of argument because it's rather beside the point. My belief is based more on how Macek largely created a mainstream fanbase from nothing whereas Funi and Viz have just built on that fanbase.


Macek helped build the fanbase, but not from nothing. Remember that anime fan organizations like C/FO already existed in America at least eight years before Robotech, thanks to Astro Boy, Speed Racer, Starblazers and Voltron. Indeed, Macek first learned about Macross from C/FO, before Harmony Gold approached him.
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AnimenexuS



Joined: 26 Nov 2008
Posts: 142

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:48 am Reply with quote
jsevakis wrote:
I just want to point out the pure hatred from Penguintruth, and how it has completely obscured both sanity and reason, to the point where he is openly hating for hatred sake. Note that every opportunity, no matter how nonsensical, to insult the man is taken, as if insulting the man were the measure of one's manhood.

The open-minded and common sense-endowed will find a lot of intelligent things in what Carl has to say, even if they don't agree 100% with his aesthetic sense.

The people who have been taken in by the fan aesthetic, and consume it as if it were the only reality, ignorant of other people's divergent opinions, will continue to scorn this alternate point of view, for it is different from their own. They are idealogues, surely, and their point of view is so immobile and obvious that they are neither worth listening to nor arguing with, nor are their tired ideas worth entertaining. They are merely regurgitating the same venom they've spilt for years, and lo, how their thoughtless words spew caustic.

That is all.

edit: Anyone who can honestly say that they prefer the ADV dub of Dirty Pair: Affair on Nolandia over the Streamline dub is clearly suffering from a serious medical condition affecting both their hearing and mental faculties, and should probably seek medical attention immediately.






If that something you want to believe
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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 12035

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:52 am Reply with quote
ABTAP:
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Never mind the nagging issue of saying a blond-haired girl was born a green-haired girl....


Or a pink-haired girl... Rolling Eyes

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But Voltron did something in 1985 and 1998 that Robotech still hasn't: actually put two sequel series, produced from scratch and not from "found footage," on American broadcast television.


Robotech just got a sequel from a Korean production studio, actually.

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If these are failures even though both were nationally broadcasted with toy tie-ins, what does that make Robotech II: The Sentinels and Robotech 3000?


It makes them losses. Failures are only for projects you blow money on which do not make money. See 4Kids' One Piece dub and animation block for example.

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But why raise that issue, but turn a blind eye to the legalities of Robotech?


Because the Japanese companies are playing their usual bullshit game of shaking down American licensors for more money for more Macross, even though they knew exactly what they were getting into when they signed their contracts with companies like HG.

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Is it a "franchise" when it consisted of three games, two of which were heavily panned and the last of which was six years ago?


When the dvds end up being one of ADV's best-sellers, it's definitely a franchise.

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Remember, all Robotech episodes are available for free on YouTube.


But that's only years later, not a few months later like Voltron.

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Please refrain from unprovable speculation. Again, may you please provide proof of your claims?


The DVD market circa 2000?

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Can we also note that Streamline Pictures' subtitling efforts had these same faults and more, even though Streamline's subs came after the other companies' subs?



Well, they were late to join the game, so....
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Harmony Gold and Tatsunoko claim they have all the overseas rights, but they don't have their hands on the actual footage since they weren't involved at all in their productions.


Doesn't matter if they own the footage, if Nue and Big West ceded distribution rights to Tatsunoko and HG, unless Nue and BW came up with a clause to change the terms of distribution, of course.

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If someone besides Harmony Gold had taken an anime and changed the enemy's motivations, changed who lived or died, changed the entire ending, inserted footage from another anime, and destroyed the namesake of the anime...wouldn't you and others be the first to say these are not minor changes and criticize the changes?


If HG did the whole thing in a way which did not respect the source material, I would be pissed. But I honestly can only superficially tell the friggin' difference here.

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For starters, providing the subtitled option early on, and keeping "ethnic gestures" instead of editing them out. Keep in mind that Macek is just writing some of the English dubbing scripts. He is not involved in the marketing of Bleach to "prove" any points there.


But the manga does have some edits, and yet you're giving Viz a pass for the same reason you're trashing Macek.

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So Funimation efforts to promote Dragon Ball Z were not hard-won?


What efforts? They shoved it on a crappy time-slot when even kids wouldn't be able to watch it, sold the show dubbed and edited for years after other companies were putting out anime unedited and its original language on dvd, and then effed people over who supported the later editions with a cropped picture of the first season, and aren't even doing trade-ins on the DBZ boxes. Plus, they just used that money to buy off Sojitz and sink ADV. That company has no love from me.

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And Viz was "barely getting by" in the age of Ranma, Pokemon, and Inuyasha?


Ranma paid the bills, Pokemon made them more profitable, and IY didn't really make money until the anime got air-time. But most of what Viz licensed was fairly hit-and-miss at retail and comic shops; and it was even losing market share to Tokyopop at one point. So
the Shueisha buy-out is probably the best thing that's ever happened to them.

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Streamline Pictures didn't create Akira's popularity in a vacuum. It capitalized on Akira manga's existing popularity when it was published by an imprint of Marvel, one of the two biggest comic companies.


The manga helped get a paying audience for the anime, but the anime probably did more for the manga in the end. When the subject of Akira is brought up, most people think of the anime. Even that Naruto creator just said in an SJUSA interview that he saw the anime first. The manga's always unfortunately been bigger in Japan than the U.S., even with Marvel and Dark Horse's support behind it. So Macek does deserve credit for making it a brand-name here.

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Why dismiss Viz's manga roots, when Viz co-spearheaded the manga movement that later led to Marvel jumping onto the bandwagon, which led to Streamline Pictures jumping onto the bandwagon?


Viz was a no-name company which had nothing to do with Akira's success. In fact, Marvel probably picked up Akira, because of its Western aesthetic, not because they wanted to cash in on Viz's titles.

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Edited dubs is just one of Macek's tactics that would no longer work today.


You'd be surprised how many people are willing to let FUNi's Kodocha slide.
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ABetterTimeandPlace



Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 4:18 am Reply with quote
GATSU wrote:
ABTAP:
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Never mind the nagging issue of saying a blond-haired girl was born a green-haired girl....


Or a pink-haired girl... Rolling Eyes


In Macross, Max and Milia have more than one child. You're confusing the oldest child with the youngest child.

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But Voltron did something in 1985 and 1998 that Robotech still hasn't: actually put two sequel series, produced from scratch and not from "found footage," on American broadcast television.


Robotech just got a sequel from a Korean production studio, actually.


Read the parts in bold. In 1986, Robotech aimed for a television series and fell short with a 90-minute video. In the 2000s, Robotech aimed for a television series and fell short with....a 90-minute video.

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If these are failures even though both were nationally broadcasted with toy tie-ins, what does that make Robotech II: The Sentinels and Robotech 3000?


It makes them losses. Failures are only for projects you blow money on which do not make money. See 4Kids' One Piece dub and animation block for example.


Let's not abuse the English language too much. Smile Robotech II: The Sentinels and Robotech 3000 are losses and projects in which Harmony Gold "blew money" and did not make their money back. In other words, failures.

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But why raise that issue, but turn a blind eye to the legalities of Robotech?


Because the Japanese companies are playing their usual bullshit game of shaking down American licensors for more money for more Macross, even though they knew exactly what they were getting into when they signed their contracts with companies like HG.


You provided more unprovable speculation, but you also avoided the question. Again, even if you believe this is true , why use that excuse on Robotech, but not Voltron?

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Is it a "franchise" when it consisted of three games, two of which were heavily panned and the last of which was six years ago?


When the dvds end up being one of ADV's best-sellers, it's definitely a franchise.

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Remember, all Robotech episodes are available for free on YouTube.


But that's only years later, not a few months later like Voltron.

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Please refrain from unprovable speculation. Again, may you please provide proof of your claims?


The DVD market circa 2000?


You missed the point. You refered to the video games as a "franchise," not the DVDs. Again, all of Robotech is on YouTube. All of Voltron is not online (legally). I asked for proof that "home video rights in association with DVD" was a sticking point in the 2000 lawsuit that doesn't mention these rights at all. Writing "The DVD market circa 2000?" falls short of proof. Let's move on.

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Harmony Gold and Tatsunoko claim they have all the overseas rights, but they don't have their hands on the actual footage since they weren't involved at all in their productions.


Doesn't matter if they own the footage, if Nue and Big West ceded distribution rights to Tatsunoko and HG, unless Nue and BW came up with a clause to change the terms of distribution, of course.


You asked why Harmony Gold hasn't released the new Macross anime. I provided the above answer. I don't think your line of thought follows that answer.

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If someone besides Harmony Gold had taken an anime and changed the enemy's motivations, changed who lived or died, changed the entire ending, inserted footage from another anime, and destroyed the namesake of the anime...wouldn't you and others be the first to say these are not minor changes and criticize the changes?


If HG did the whole thing in a way which did not respect the source material, I would be pissed. But I honestly can only superficially tell the friggin' difference here.


You can't tell that Robotech changed who lived or died. You can't tell that the story changed due to adding footage from another anime and rewriting the dialogue. Now ask yourself if nostalgia is the reason you can't tell the difference.

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But the manga does have some edits, and yet you're giving Viz a pass for the same reason you're trashing Macek.


Viz does edit some of its manga? Yes. Are they rightfully criticized for it? Absolutely, yes. Who is giving Viz a pass for this?

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What efforts? They shoved it on a crappy time-slot when even kids wouldn't be able to watch it, sold the show dubbed and edited for years after other companies were putting out anime unedited and its original language on dvd, and then effed people over who supported the later editions with a cropped picture of the first season, and aren't even doing trade-ins on the DBZ boxes. Plus, they just used that money to buy off Sojitz and sink ADV. That company has no love from me.


I think you're misplacing your anger, however valid, for Funimation from another thread. But replace "DBZ" with "Robotech" for most of what you wrote in the middle, and you have a pretty good description of the multiple DVD releases that Robotech had.

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And Viz was "barely getting by" in the age of Ranma, Pokemon, and Inuyasha?


Ranma paid the bills, Pokemon made them more profitable, and IY didn't really make money until the anime got air-time. But most of what Viz licensed was fairly hit-and-miss at retail and comic shops; and it was even losing market share to Tokyopop at one point. So
the Shueisha buy-out is probably the best thing that's ever happened to them.


So Viz paid the billls, became more profitable, made more money after anime was aired, and temporarily lost market share to its biggest competitor. That somehow translates to "barely getting by"? Please provide proof that most of VIz's licenses were hit-and-miss financially.
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ikillchicken
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 4:34 am Reply with quote
ABetterTimeandPlace wrote:
Translated manga in America didn't predate translated anime in America, but translated manga predated Robotech and Streamline Pictures. Educomics published Barefoot Gen in English in 1981.


You're speaking about technicalities though. It's not about one or two individual releases. In the end, it was still roughly the same time frame in which we saw both mediums begin their rise to prominence here. I'm sure both were helped by the other. Both began to see significant releases here The fact is that streamline struck out into releasing anime (particularly more mature anime) before Viz ever did.

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Macek helped build the fanbase, but not from nothing. Remember that anime fan organizations like C/FO already existed in America at least eight years before Robotech, thanks to Astro Boy, Speed Racer, Starblazers and Voltron. Indeed, Macek first learned about Macross from C/FO, before Harmony Gold approached him.


I said he created the mainstream fanbase out of nothing. I'm not denying there was a small niche of fans before that.
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Prede



Joined: 17 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 4:37 am Reply with quote
ABetterTimeandPlace wrote:

So Viz paid the billls, became more profitable, made more money after anime was aired, and temporarily lost market share to its biggest competitor. That somehow translates to "barely getting by"? Please provide proof that most of VIz's licenses were hit-and-miss financially.


I don't mean to fight for either side here. But I do wish to point out that Viz Media "put on hold" (for them that means dropped) many series over the years, even though the English Dubs were completed/almost done/pretty far into it. Prince of Tennis comes to mind. There have been tons of others, even recently, but I'm to tired to think at the moment. Anyway if they stopped putting out DVDs of something they already licensed completely (and had most of/alot of the dub done already), then you know the thing wasn't selling very well. If they figure it's best to sit on the license then release the rest of the show, well it's hard to find better proof of a title that "misses" financially. Probably a bomb in sales. Not that it would kill them to finish off their stuff, I mean they have Naruto money coming in here...

Not that I care, they never dropped anything I was buying. But I'd be pissed if they did. I know they aren't in this buisness to lose money, but there is something known as good faith, and building up custumer loyalty. ...although a lot of good that did ADV, CPM, and Geneon I guess.
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ABetterTimeandPlace



Joined: 21 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 4:51 am Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
ABetterTimeandPlace wrote:
Translated manga in America didn't predate translated anime in America, but translated manga predated Robotech and Streamline Pictures. Educomics published Barefoot Gen in English in 1981.


You're speaking about technicalities though. It's not about one or two individual releases. In the end, it was still roughly the same time frame in which we saw both mediums begin their rise to prominence here. I'm sure both were helped by the other. Both began to see significant releases here The fact is that streamline struck out into releasing anime (particularly more mature anime) before Viz ever did.


I was pointing that even though early anime helped launch the manga industry, we're talking about the anime titles earlier than Robotech. So the two media did mutually benefit each other later, but not significantly more in one direction than the other as claimed above.

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Macek helped build the fanbase, but not from nothing. Remember that anime fan organizations like C/FO already existed in America at least eight years before Robotech, thanks to Astro Boy, Speed Racer, Starblazers and Voltron. Indeed, Macek first learned about Macross from C/FO, before Harmony Gold approached him.


I said he created the mainstream fanbase out of nothing. I'm not denying there was a small niche of fans before that.


Let's follows this line of thought. Since there was a fanbase before the mainstream fanbase (which is a vaguely defined term), the mainstream fanbase was not built out of "nothing." There was "something" before it. And it was a very significant "something" in Robotech's development also, since that is how Macek learned about Macross.


Last edited by ABetterTimeandPlace on Sun Jan 17, 2010 5:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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ABetterTimeandPlace



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 5:01 am Reply with quote
Prede wrote:
I don't mean to fight for either side here. But I do wish to point out that Viz Media "put on hold" (for them that means dropped) many series over the years, even though the English Dubs were completed/almost done/pretty far into it.


Did Viz drop licenses? Certainly. But were most licenses hit-or-misses, as GATSU claimed? And even if this was so and proven, does that translate to Viz "barely getting by"? I don't think anyone besides GATSU would claim that.
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ikillchicken
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 5:55 am Reply with quote
ABetterTimeandPlace wrote:
I was pointing that even though early anime helped launch the manga industry, we're talking about the anime titles earlier than Robotech. So the two media did mutually benefit each other later, but not significantly more in one direction than the other as claimed above.


Yeah, fair enough. But then you can't try to claim that Streamline was just 'jumping on the bandwagon' as you did earlier. They launched a unique endeavor that hadn't really been tried before. A growing amount of manga available might have been somewhat helpful but it was a relatively minor factor.

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Let's follows this line of thought. Since there was a fanbase before the mainstream fanbase (which is a vaguely defined term), the mainstream fanbase was not built out of "nothing." There was "something" before it. And it was a very significant "something" in Robotech's development also, since that is how Macek learned about Macross.


You're just arguing semantics though. Fine, if you prefer I will rephrase. There was some anime fanbase before this. I will disagree however that it was a significant fanbase. It was almost entirely isolated to little niches of fans swapping fansub tapes.
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