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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 12445

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 5:58 am Reply with quote
ABTAP:
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In Macross, Max and Milia have more than one child.


My point is the Japanese seem to have the same issues with continuity you complain about w/ Macek.

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In 1986, Robotech aimed for a television series and fell short with a 90-minute video. In the 2000s, Robotech aimed for a television series and fell short with....a 90-minute video.


But those videos are still more profitable than Voltron's sequels.

[quote]Robotech II: The Sentinels and Robotech 3000 are losses and projects in which Harmony Gold "blew money" and did not make their money back.[quote]

But they're not failures, because they'd have to have actually finished and bomb w/ buyers to be considered as such.

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Again, even if you believe this is true , why use that excuse on Robotech, but not Voltron?


'Cus nothing in the contract prevents HG from making a sequel and/or movie to Robotech.

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All of Voltron is not online (legally).


The successful half of it is is.

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I asked for proof that "home video rights in association with DVD" was a sticking point in the 2000 lawsuit that doesn't mention these rights at all.


They talk about distribution here, which would imply home video.

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Now ask yourself if nostalgia is the reason you can't tell the difference.


My nostalgia is for Macross, and yet I don't feel I lost anything with Robotech.

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Who is giving Viz a pass for this?


Well, you're claiming they're the way to go, even though they can be more half-assed at times.

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Please provide proof that most of VIz's licenses were hit-and-miss financially.


How many manga titles from the 80s which weren't written by Takahashi are still on the market?

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And even if this was so and proven, does that translate to Viz "barely getting by"?


They took up porn ads in Animerica @ one point.
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ABetterTimeandPlace



Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 11:55 am Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
ABetterTimeandPlace wrote:
I was pointing that even though early anime helped launch the manga industry, we're talking about the anime titles earlier than Robotech. So the two media did mutually benefit each other later, but not significantly more in one direction than the other as claimed above.


Yeah, fair enough. But then you can't try to claim that Streamline was just 'jumping on the bandwagon' as you did earlier. They launched a unique endeavor that hadn't really been tried before. A growing amount of manga available might have been somewhat helpful but it was a relatively minor factor.


Not in terms of being an early U.S. anime company, for which it was along with U.S. Renditions and AnimEigo, but in terms of Akira's popularity. Streamline Pictures tapped into Akira's existing popularity thanks to Marvel's earlier manga release.

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Let's follows this line of thought. Since there was a fanbase before the mainstream fanbase (which is a vaguely defined term), the mainstream fanbase was not built out of "nothing." There was "something" before it. And it was a very significant "something" in Robotech's development also, since that is how Macek learned about Macross.


You're just arguing semantics though. Fine, if you prefer I will rephrase. There was some anime fanbase before this. I will disagree however that it was a significant fanbase. It was almost entirely isolated to little niches of fans swapping fansub tapes.


Smaller than a year later, but not entirely isolated from each other. People today forget that there was Internet before the web. People were discussing Voltron, Robotech, and other anime on USENET newsgroups and BBSs as they aired.

http://groups.google.com/​group/​net.​comics/​browse_thread/​thread/​d3bf2082b9cb1411/​3423df97f181e12f

There was even talk of Robotech Defenders in 1984, a year before Robotech TV:

http://groups.google.com/​group/​net.​comics/​msg/​6c94516640e0a95b?

And again, the fanbase was significant in Robotech's development, since Macek learned about Macross through it, before Harmony Gold.
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Treiz



Joined: 16 Jan 2010
Posts: 99

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:35 pm Reply with quote
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If these are failures even though both were nationally broadcasted with toy tie-ins, what does that make Robotech II: The Sentinels and Robotech 3000?



It makes them losses. Failures are only for projects you blow money on which do not make money. See 4Kids' One Piece dub and animation block for example.

Technically, Robotech II The Sentinels and Robotech 3000 have sold VERY well with HG more than making up the relatively small amount of money that was expended on them. Both were included in the Legacy Edition DVDs and the Protoculture Collection, and thus are along with Robotech some of the BEST selling anime in the History of the US Market. Wink
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ABetterTimeandPlace



Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:54 pm Reply with quote
Treiz wrote:
Technically, Robotech II The Sentinels and Robotech 3000 have sold VERY well with HG more than making up the relatively small amount of money that was expended on them. Both were included in the Legacy Edition DVDs and the Protoculture Collection, and thus are along with Robotech some of the BEST selling anime in the History of the US Market. Wink


I think even a movie studio accountant will have problems with this fuzzy math. Smile Something that was offered as a free bonus cannot recoup its own costs that way. (By the way, Robotech 3000 was in The Shadow Chronicles DVD, not in the Legacy Collections or Protoculture Collection.)
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Prede



Joined: 17 Sep 2009
Posts: 378

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 5:11 pm Reply with quote
ABetterTimeandPlace wrote:
Prede wrote:
I don't mean to fight for either side here. But I do wish to point out that Viz Media "put on hold" (for them that means dropped) many series over the years, even though the English Dubs were completed/almost done/pretty far into it.


Did Viz drop licenses? Certainly. But were most licenses hit-or-misses, as GATSU claimed? And even if this was so and proven, does that translate to Viz "barely getting by"? I don't think anyone besides GATSU would claim that.


I don't know, but that seems to be "hit and miss" in my eyes. There have been more then a couple series they just STOPPED releaseing, and we don't know what else will happen with those titles. Perhaps more hit then miss, but since they have so few shows to begin with, and make so much money from them, it does make sense.
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ABetterTimeandPlace



Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 5:22 pm Reply with quote
Prede wrote:
I don't know, but that seems to be "hit and miss" in my eyes. There have been more then a couple series they just STOPPED releaseing, and we don't know what else will happen with those titles. Perhaps more hit then miss, but since they have so few shows to begin with, and make so much money from them, it does make sense.


Yeah, that seems to be fuzzy wording on GATSU's part since by that definition, all companies run by mortal humans, including Harmony Gold and Streamline Pictures, are "hit-and-miss." So despite this fuzzy wording, no one else would say that Viz was "barely getting by."
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bleuster



Joined: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 453
Location: Orange County

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:11 pm Reply with quote
Great listen.
Would have loved to hear more about Robot Carnival.

It's too bad he wasn't understood at ADV and elsewhere. If those companies wouldn't be able to be at a more stable situation today, he could have at least gone somewhere with his talent if they allowed him to do his thing 'cause he's a smart man.
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Charred Knight



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 3022

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:26 pm Reply with quote
GATSU wrote:


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So Funimation efforts to promote Dragon Ball Z were not hard-won?


What efforts? They shoved it on a crappy time-slot when even kids wouldn't be able to watch it, sold the show dubbed and edited for years after other companies were putting out anime unedited and its original language on dvd, and then effed people over who supported the later editions with a cropped picture of the first season, and aren't even doing trade-ins on the DBZ boxes. Plus, they just used that money to buy off Sojitz and sink ADV. That company has no love from me.


Only the first few dvd Funimation released where dub only, unless your talking about the Geneon releases. Also the DBZ boxes are aimed at people who want to see the Japanese version, not the dub, of course their not going to re-imburse you. Do you expect them to offer trade-ins if they get Kai. Funimation is a business and their job is to make money.

ADV's failures are on ADV, Funimation didn't tell them to liscense about a hundred anime series no one ever heard of. Funimation didn't tell them to join up with Sojitz. The fact that Funimation was basically the only company who could afford to pick up all of ADV's recent series is because they made money.
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giascle



Joined: 09 Sep 2008
Posts: 157
Location: Denver

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:44 pm Reply with quote
I don't know if this has been asked, because I don't want to wade through 8 pages of rage, but are there any guidelines for the new theme song? All I heard "no DJ loops" or something, but I'm not sure what this entails.
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ikillchicken
Space CowboySpace Cowboy


Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 6867
Location: Vancouver

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:48 pm Reply with quote
ABetterTimeandPlace wrote:
Not in terms of being an early U.S. anime company, for which it was along with U.S. Renditions and AnimEigo, but in terms of Akira's popularity. Streamline Pictures tapped into Akira's existing popularity thanks to Marvel's earlier manga release.


So what is your point exactly? Because they were smart enough to tap into something with existing popularity they don't deserve credit? I'd say the opposite. It's precisely because of this and other choices people frequently criticize them for that they were able to break into the mainstream. Yeah sure, technically, Renditions and AnimEigo may have been the first to release anime here, but did either of them achieve any degree of real significant success? No, of course not. They just put out a couple of minor, subtitled releases. It was streamline that stepped up and got it's product in theaters. It was streamline that put out a product that created a real buzz. Not to mention that it was Robotech before any of these that really brought the market for such products to the forefront. I'll certainly give those other two companies credit for their part pioneering anime in North America. However, I don't think it can be denied that Macek and the companies he created were at the center of it all and the reason for that was his buisness and marketing skills and many of the decisions that fans deride him for.

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And again, the fanbase was significant in Robotech's development, since Macek learned about Macross through it, before Harmony Gold.


Look, you seem to want to act like all the credit can all be passed to the fans just because they were where Macek initially heard about Macross from. That's so utterly minor though. The fans aren't the ones who got off their buts and actually did the work and brought the series to North America. It was Macek.
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ABetterTimeandPlace



Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:06 pm Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
ABetterTimeandPlace wrote:
Not in terms of being an early U.S. anime company, for which it was along with U.S. Renditions and AnimEigo, but in terms of Akira's popularity. Streamline Pictures tapped into Akira's existing popularity thanks to Marvel's earlier manga release.


So what is your point exactly? Because they were smart enough to tap into something with existing popularity they don't deserve credit? I'd say the opposite. It's precisely because of this and other choices people frequently criticize them for that they were able to break into the mainstream. Yeah sure, technically, Renditions and AnimEigo may have been the first to release anime here, but did either of them achieve any degree of real significant success? No, of course not. They just put out a couple of minor, subtitled releases. It was streamline that stepped up and got it's product in theaters. It was streamline that put out a product that created a real buzz. Not to mention that it was Robotech before any of these that really brought the market for such products to the forefront. I'll certainly give those other two companies credit for their part pioneering anime in North America. However, I don't think it can be denied that Macek and the companies he created were at the center of it all and the reason
for.


My statement was made in response to a dismissal of Viz's efforts that predate Streamline Pictures, when Viz's efforts helped build the manga industry that led to the Akira manga's release, before the Akira anime's release.

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And again, the fanbase was significant in Robotech's development, since Macek learned about Macross through it, before Harmony Gold.


Look, you seem to want to act like all the credit can all be passed to the fans just because they were where Macek initially heard about Macross from. That's so utterly minor though. The fans aren't the ones who got off their buts and actually did the work and brought the series to North America. It was Macek.


My statement was made in response to a claim that Macek created the mainstream fanbase out of nothing or out of insignificance. I was pointing out that there was a fanbase for anime in general and for Macross in particular before Macek's efforts. Macek certainly helped develop the anime industry in America, but he didn't create either the fanbase or the industry in a vacuum. Both existed beforehand and were not insignificant in regards to Robotech itself.
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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 12445

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:07 pm Reply with quote
Charred Knight:
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Only the first few dvd Funimation released where dub only, unless your talking about the Geneon releases.


I'm talking about tapes. And they sold dub-only edited versions of their shows on DVD for years, and probably contributed to the glut in the process.

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Also the DBZ boxes are aimed at people who want to see the Japanese version, not the dub, of course their not going to re-imburse you.


Um, no. They were marketed towards completists who wanted to finally see the first season without paying Japanese import prices. And the company was clearly misleading them by suggesting that the buyers would be getting the product with a better picture. If it was just about cashing in on the dubbed fans, it would be dub-only. So in a market in which even MS isn't immune to being held accountable for defective consoles, FUNi could easily be sued for false advertising under those circumstances.

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Do you expect them to offer trade-ins if they get Kai.


Kai is obviously not the same thing as a Dragon Box you're forced to buy, because the company lied about the last set being re-mastered.

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Funimation is a business and their job is to make money.


So, by your logic, making money, even if you sell defective cribs hich suffocate babies and cat food which kills cats is ok, too.

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ADV's failures are on ADV, Funimation didn't tell them to liscense about a hundred anime series no one ever heard of.


Except they didn't license 100 anime series no one heard of, and were actually doing fine until Sojitz.

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Funimation didn't tell them to join up with Sojitz.


But FUNimation did tell Sojitz to kill ADV when it started sniffing blood.

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The fact that Funimation was basically the only company who could afford to pick up all of ADV's recent series is because they made money.


Yeah. They made money ripping off DBZ fans. Otherwise, they'd be hemorrhaging cash even worse than the competition, with their failed investments in Kodocha, Conan, and various Gonzo titles which most people have forgotten by now.
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ABetterTimeandPlace



Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:08 am Reply with quote
GATSU wrote:
ABTAP:
Quote:
In Macross, Max and Milia have more than one child.


My point is the Japanese seem to have the same issues with continuity you complain about w/ Macek.

Quote:
Now ask yourself if nostalgia is the reason you can't tell the difference.


My nostalgia is for Macross, and yet I don't feel I lost anything with Robotech.


In Macross, Max and Milia have more than one child, and the pink-haired daughter stayed pink-haired from birth through her teen years. I don't think that this demonstrates any continuity issue as you claim.

You claimed that Macross copied the idea of having Max's daughter from Robotech, because you forgot that Macross showed Max's daughter before Robotech. I think we can safely say that you don't remember Macross well and that your perception of Macross has been blurred by Robotech.

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In 1986, Robotech aimed for a television series and fell short with a 90-minute video. In the 2000s, Robotech aimed for a television series and fell short with....a 90-minute video.


But those videos are still more profitable than Voltron's sequels.

Quote:
Robotech II: The Sentinels and Robotech 3000 are losses and projects in which Harmony Gold "blew money" and did not make their money back.


But they're not failures, because they'd have to have actually finished and bomb w/ buyers to be considered as such.


Please, stop abusing the definition of "failure" and offering unprovable speculation.

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Again, even if you believe this is true , why use that excuse on Robotech, but not Voltron?


'Cus nothing in the contract prevents HG from making a sequel and/or movie to Robotech.

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I asked for proof that "home video rights in association with DVD" was a sticking point in the 2000 lawsuit that doesn't mention these rights at all.


They talk about distribution here, which would imply home video.


Actually, one of the lawsuits discussed the issue of using Macross elements in any project not involving Studio Nue or Big West. The distribution claim is from Harmony Gold's 2002 threat letter. It's not mentioned in the 2000 lawsuit. Please don't comment on the lawsuits until you read them.

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Who is giving Viz a pass for this?


Well, you're claiming they're the way to go, even though they can be more half-assed at times.


I pointed out that they are still in business, even if they still make mistakes and rightfully criticized for it. Those are not mutually incompatible statements.

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Please provide proof that most of VIz's licenses were hit-and-miss financially.


How many manga titles from the 80s which weren't written by Takahashi are still on the market?

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And even if this was so and proven, does that translate to Viz "barely getting by"?


They took up porn ads in Animerica @ one point.


I don't think you understand that these statements, even if true, fail to prove your points.


Last edited by ABetterTimeandPlace on Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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Treiz



Joined: 16 Jan 2010
Posts: 99

PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:21 am Reply with quote
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Something that was offered as a free bonus cannot recoup its own costs that way.

The extras were NOT free, the Legacy Collection and the Protoculture collection both cost more than the original release and the Remastered Extended edition, and the same goes for the Robotech the Shadow Chronicles dvd vs the special edition and Bluray edition.

The Sentinels feature and the Robotech 3000 pilot represented added value and a premium price to the dvd sets, and that added value taken from the dvd sales is quite significant especially considering that they are still on store shelves to this day despite the market.

What HG has made on them over what they would have made if they stuck with the cheaper bare bones releases is certainly more than enough to cover their expendatures on the projects.
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ABetterTimeandPlace



Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:36 am Reply with quote
Treiz wrote:
Quote:
Something that was offered as a free bonus cannot recoup its own costs that way.

The extras were NOT free, the Legacy Collection and the Protoculture collection both cost more than the original release and the Remastered Extended edition, and the same goes for the Robotech the Shadow Chronicles dvd vs the special edition and Bluray edition.


The $129.98 Protoculture Collection costs more than the 14 original $14.98 releases or the 7 $29.98 Remastered Extended Edition? I think the value of these particular bonuses to the overall packages are amply demonstrated by the fact that even a Robotech fan didn't remember which DVD they were on. Smile
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