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REVIEW: Twelve Kingdoms DVD 1


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sailor_titan



Joined: 10 Nov 2003
Posts: 51
Location: Vermont

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:47 am Reply with quote
I just want to thank the reviewer for an *excellent* review of this wonderful series. I almost cried when Animeondvd gave Twelve Kingdoms a B+ (okay, maybe that's hyperbole.) Anyway, thanks again and keep up the good work!
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Sarki-Kun



Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 594
Location: Spain

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 12:16 pm Reply with quote
Oh! I was waiting to see if anyone else thought that either the review and the serie are great Anime smile
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lianncoop
ANN Columnist


Joined: 28 Jul 2003
Posts: 1706
Location: Indiana

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 12:40 pm Reply with quote
sailor_titan wrote:
I just want to thank the reviewer for an *excellent* review of this wonderful series. I almost cried when Animeondvd gave Twelve Kingdoms a B+ (okay, maybe that's hyperbole.) Anyway, thanks again and keep up the good work!


*thinks* Should I touch this with a 10-ft pole? Yes...yes I think I shall..

SAILOR_TITAN - you really need to get out of this mindset that B+ is a HORRIBLE score. You also need to learn to accept that contrary to your personal belief, that *gasp* PEOPLE COULD HAVE OPINIONS which differ from yours. This doesn't make them wrong, this doesn't make them right. We sit here and listen to your fangirlish whines and we basically allow you to think the way you want to, as long as you spout factual reasons. However, just because someone doesn't say OMG Twelve Kingdoms is the GREATEST THING EVAR isn't the end of the world. I mean, I'm sure you like things out there that I feel are really excellent productions. B+ = FINE. A= FINE. F=BAD. See the trend?
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sailor_titan



Joined: 10 Nov 2003
Posts: 51
Location: Vermont

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 3:17 pm Reply with quote
I don't think that touching something with a 10-foot pole includes name-calling. I always thought that meant touching something, y'know, gently, or only a little. Anyway.

Geez, I say something nice, but even that is bad. "I know! She said something nice! Let's bitch about that, too!"

In any case, while I do realize that B+ is an okay score, I think that 12 Kingdoms is the best anime I have ever seen, and therefore, a score of "B+" seems severly lacking.

The idea of reviews, I realize, is not for the reviewer to agree with your opinions. However, it is kind of frustrating when people give an A+ to Evangelion or Lain and only a B+ to 12 Kingdoms. The frustration therein lies *not* in the fact that there is disagreement in the review. It lies in another conundrum. What if there's another show I'm interested in seeing--say, Last Exile--and the reviewer gives it, oh, an A. Now, if the reviewer had given 12 Kingdoms an A and Evangelion a F and Dream Saga a B or so, I would say, "Oh, that means I'll probably like it. Think I'll go pick it up."

Now let's say we have another reviewer, like most of the reviewers on this site--or hell, most reviewers in general--who give, say, Evangelion an A, Lain an A, KaleidoStar an A, and Dream Saga an F--. that makes things difficult when I'm reading the review. It isn't just that the reviewer hates things I like and vice-versa, because I like Kaleidostar. So that's out. And I can't trust that the review means that I will like it, because they've given very positive reviews to two shows that I find abonminable. The frustration is compounded when I go to other review sites and find the same results.

THe object of a review site is to review a series and give an opinion--in the hope that it will let people know whether or not they will like the show in question. If a review site is not meeting that need, it makes some amount of logical sense to complain about the reviews in the hope that the staff of the site will think "Hm, hey, maybe we should hire some other reviewers that give different viewpoints. Looks like a lot of people aren't finding their reviews helpful."

Seeing as ANN has hired some new reviewers, and I found at least one of their reviews satisfactory (and will be looking for more reviews by Tokiwa in the future for this reason) I thought I'd praise them for a good choice of reviewers.

I'm sorry if my praise offends you in my quest to find a good review site--or if it makes you feel like I'm just expressing my opinions more--a review site that statisfies my needs so I know what's worth buying.
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darkhunter



Joined: 13 May 2004
Posts: 2992
Location: Los Angelas

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 3:50 pm Reply with quote
I think the main reason why TK wasn't all that fantasic was the lame whiny heroin. Man she cried a lot and don't want to accept her responsiblity and I think that's annoying.

But that's me though, I didn't like Evagelion as much for the same reason.
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Sarki-Kun



Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 594
Location: Spain

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:10 pm Reply with quote
Well, if you compare Yoko with Miaka (Fushigi Yugi) or any other series about a female student who's been sended to a different world, with constant elements about Old China...

What I really like from TK is how it doesn't make appear any "stupid and crying-for-love" heroin...
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Tony K.
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Joined: 18 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:24 pm Reply with quote
sailor_titan, I agree that reviews are good for getting a little forward insight at times, but is it really necessary to depend on them that frequently?

I mean, I'm not saying that's what you do, because I don't really know if that's true Razz, but since a lot of, though not all, reviews are written subjectively, I'm not sure if it's ever a good idea to try and interpret those opinions as a "buy" or "don't buy" kind of mentality.

I'm sure there are quite a few titles that both you and I like that may have recieved horrible reviews, but regarldess of the fact, we still may like whatever it is that we like.

The point is, when it all comes down to it, every person does have their opinion, and these reviews are just that -- a person's opinion. Whether or not you agree with that person is your own thing, and I just don't feel every review should have to conform to what we want hear, but rather just what that person has to say about that particular title. Wink
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ANN_Bamboo
ANN Managing Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 3772
Location: The OC

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 7:24 pm Reply with quote
sailor_titan wrote:
I don't think that touching something with a 10-foot pole includes name-calling. I always thought that meant touching something, y'know, gently, or only a little. Anyway.


No. You know that expression, "I wouldn't touch this with a 10-foot pole?" Well, what Liann meant was, "eh, I wouldn't touch it ... but I might as well."

Quote:

I'm sorry if my praise offends you in my quest to find a good review site--or if it makes you feel like I'm just expressing my opinions more--a review site that statisfies my needs so I know what's worth buying.


Sweetie, what you're pretty much saying is that you think a "good review site" is one that has reviews that match exactly your opinions. Any review site that doesn't match your opinions exactly must therefore, in your opinion, not be a good review site.

AnimeOnDVD is a good review site. But wait, Beveridge gave 12 Kingdoms a B+. Oops, never mind, scratch what I just said. AOD is horrible and biased and they don't know what they're talking about!!! Next time, he should e-mail you first and ask for your opinion on the series first, just so he gives it a score you approve of.

Please.
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SuperOnizuka



Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 421
Location: When I look At the World- New Jersey

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 7:32 pm Reply with quote
darkhunter wrote:
I think the main reason why TK wasn't all that fantasic was the lame whiny heroin. Man she cried a lot and don't want to accept her responsiblity and I think that's annoying.

But that's me though, I didn't like Evagelion as much for the same reason.


I thought that, as well, when I watched the first two DVDs. spoiler[After the first two DVDs, she settles down a bit and accepts her responsibilities, even if still a little whiny, she understands and slowly starts to accept her soon to be responsibilities right before they invade the Kei palace.] When I showed my brother this series, he also complained about Nakajima's attitude being very complacent and that "Why me of all people?" attitude.

But as the story progresses she accepts her responsibilities by molding it to how she wants it. So in the end she toughens up.


Now as for the review. I was wondering when ANN would have a review of this. Although I got a review from a friend of mine of old, I wanted to know what others thought about it. Even if I am seven DVDs into the series....
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Nagisa
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Joined: 19 Aug 2003
Posts: 6128
Location: Atlanta-ish, Jawjuh

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 7:53 pm Reply with quote
darkhunter wrote:
I think the main reason why TK wasn't all that fantasic was the lame whiny heroin. Man she cried a lot and don't want to accept her responsiblity and I think that's annoying.


Exactly how far into the show did you see? Sure, she starts off a bit distressed, but that's only to be expected given that a spoiler[deity just dragged her kicking & screaming into another world left her stuck in the middle of nowhere.] But once she spoiler[shuts up the blue monkey thing in the sword that's stirring up all her self-doubt,] she becomes a much, much stronger (and likable) character.
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ChrisBeveridge



Joined: 13 Apr 2002
Posts: 162

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:35 pm Reply with quote
I always find things like this amusing (thanks for pointing it out Bamboo!).

What some people need to remember is that while they know the series rocks their socks cause they've seen every episode the day it's available for download, we're not watching it with that mentality. We're watching it disc by disc. I don't rate a first volume an A+ because the end of the series was one of the best things ever. I look at each volume as it goes along.

Twelve Kingdoms graded in a normal way for a series that had some interesting material at the start and had our attention but didn't completely floor us:

Vol. 1-3: B+ for content
Vol. 4-5: A- for content
Vol. 6: A for content
Vol. 7: A- for content

The other problem is that some folks just take the grading and leave it at that. With the first couple of volumes of Twelve Kingdoms, I disliked the pacing of parts of it. I disliked the way that at first there wasn't any really huge visible change when the lead character became different when she moved between worlds. They make a huge deal but the differences, due to some not all that spectacular work at first and the rushed pace, wasn't completely obvious since the character hadn't been familiar enough yet. And frankly, I have a hard time with series that are of a Chinese historical nature bent because there are so many unfamiliar words and terminology used that the flow of the show is broken by trying to keep up with it, whereas I've spent plenty of years becoming familiar with a lot of Japanese historical/religious and cultural things that those seem more natural to me.

But I think my first point in regards to how people who have seen the whole series tend to jump on those who haven't and aren't raving right from the start is one of my biggest problems with the "Cool Crowd" of fandom these days. Since they're ahead of the curve, they sometimes forget that we're not all on the same page. I think it's a disservice to rate a series based on how it WILL be as opposed to what it IS at the time of the volume. But that's also why we review each volume of the series, since a lot of them DO get better as they go on while some of them suck even worse.
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sailor_titan



Joined: 10 Nov 2003
Posts: 51
Location: Vermont

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:53 pm Reply with quote
<>

What I mean by a good review site (as what I was trying to say in my previous post) is a good review site for me . The idea is not "Do they agree with everything I like?" the idea is "Do they agree with stuff I like, so I can make an educated guess that the next A+ review is also something I'll like, so I can pick it up?"

See what I"m trying to say? If someone gives a show I hate an A+, I can't really trust that the next A+ is worthy of my attention. If they give a show I hate an F, I'll be more likely to enjoy something based on their advice.

The difference here is GOOD FOR ME vs. GOOD IN GENERAL. I'm looking for a site that is GOOD FOR ME. I think that's pretty fair. I'm not asking for someone to cater a review site just for me, but I am looking for someone with similar tastes.

Tony made a good point when he said it's not a good idea to base everything off a review, and I think he's right. But most review sites have opinions grossly different from mine, not a little. I would like at least a bit of an idea as to if I would like a show or not, instead of shooting in the dark. Sometimes the summary on the back either doesn't do the show justice or makes it sound cooler than it is.

There was actually a review site I really liked but I lost the URL...Anime cry

<<What some people need to remember is that while they know the series rocks their socks cause they've seen every episode the day it's available for download, we're not watching it with that mentality. We're watching it disc by disc. I don't rate a first volume an A+ because the end of the series was one of the best things ever. I look at each volume as it goes along.>>

Actually, I felt like the first volume also deserved an A at least, so it wasn't just because I had seen ahead. (In fact, I was only one volume ahead at the time. Although one volume does make a big difference in 12 Kingdoms.) If it makes any difference to you, I found some of your other reviews surprisingly positive (like for Saint Tail and Wedding Peach) even though you seem to dislike that sort of sugary series as as general rule. I can't say I can give you any kudos for giving Lain an A, though, which is what forever made me leery of your reviews. ^^v. I did like the first volume of Lain, though.
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lianncoop
ANN Columnist


Joined: 28 Jul 2003
Posts: 1706
Location: Indiana

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:12 pm Reply with quote
sailor_titan wrote:
See what I"m trying to say? If someone gives a show I hate an A+, I can't really trust that the next A+ is worthy of my attention. If they give a show I hate an F, I'll be more likely to enjoy something based on their advice.

The difference here is GOOD FOR ME vs. GOOD IN GENERAL. I'm looking for a site that is GOOD FOR ME. I think that's pretty fair. I'm not asking for someone to cater a review site just for me, but I am looking for someone with similar tastes.


Shoot. Looks like I didn't get "The World Revolves Around sailor_titan" memo.

We'll be sure to email you before the next review or column goes up so that we can be sure that our tastes correspond. Either that or you should post a list of series you've read/watched with your personal rating so that we can make sure things match up.

Oh wait, that's what My Anime is for...but you don't have a public list. Sad Now how will I be sure that I am reviewing things correctly?!!?
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ANN_Bamboo
ANN Managing Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
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Location: The OC

PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:27 am Reply with quote
sailor_titan wrote:

What I mean by a good review site (as what I was trying to say in my previous post) is a good review site for me . The idea is not "Do they agree with everything I like?" the idea is "Do they agree with stuff I like, so I can make an educated guess that the next A+ review is also something I'll like, so I can pick it up?"

See what I"m trying to say? If someone gives a show I hate an A+, I can't really trust that the next A+ is worthy of my attention. If they give a show I hate an F, I'll be more likely to enjoy something based on their advice.

The difference here is GOOD FOR ME vs. GOOD IN GENERAL. I'm looking for a site that is GOOD FOR ME.


Wait, wait, so what you're saying is that from now on, every time you say something regarding the quality of a review, we should just completely throw out your opinion, because your opinion of a *review* and the *quality of the review* is based solely on if it conforms to your dis/liking of the disc in question? Okay, I can deal with that. Next time I see something that says, "This is a terrific review!" I'll think to myself, "Oh wait, that opinion doesn't mean anything because it's based not on the credentials of the review, but the letter grade in comparison to Sailor_Titan's letter grade." Deal.

Quote:
If it makes any difference to you, I found some of your other reviews surprisingly positive (like for Saint Tail and Wedding Peach) even though you seem to dislike that sort of sugary series as as general rule. I can't say I can give you any kudos for giving Lain an A, though, which is what forever made me leery of your reviews. ^^v. I did like the first volume of Lain, though.


Really? Do you even read AOD? He even liked junk like Mao-chan. That's wicked sugary. But wait... how did you like the first volume of Lain if you disagreed with his rating of the show. What should he have given it instead? An A-? A B+? Surely not as steep as a B!! because that's almost the same as an F.
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sailor_titan



Joined: 10 Nov 2003
Posts: 51
Location: Vermont

PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 8:27 am Reply with quote
<<Wait, wait, so what you're saying is that from now on, every time you say something regarding the quality of a review, we should just completely throw out your opinion, because your opinion of a *review* and the *quality of the review* is based solely on if it conforms to your dis/liking of the disc in question? Okay, I can deal with that. Next time I see something that says, "This is a terrific review!" I'll think to myself, "Oh wait, that opinion doesn't mean anything because it's based not on the credentials of the review, but the letter grade in comparison to Sailor_Titan's letter grade." Deal.>>

Deal with what? The fact that you're rude and obnoxious? Okay. I can deal with that. Note to self: You are rude and obnoxious.

God forbid I should try to encourage a site to hire reviewers whose opinions I feel like I can rely on to some degree. I know. I'm such an awful person.

Seriously, I really don't think I said anything that merits your sarcastic voice and really rude attitude. Even though you've been really, really annoying about this, with all the "please."'s and "fangirl"'s I always get, I've genuinely tried to argue my points in a mature fashion.

If you're just going to reply to anything I say with whining about how my opinions suck (Oh wait! Isn't that what I'm doing?! Sounds like hypocrisy to meGASP!!!) because I'm just commenting on whether I agree with the review or not, feel free to keep your opinions to yourself. I already know how you feel. At least the reviewer doesn't know how I feel about a particular review yet, even if you think my critcisms are unjustified. Personally, I think it quite normal and average to comment on a review with agreement or disagreement (In fact, I see it on this and other sites all the time) So I really wish you would leave me alone already. There are even people on this very thread who were agreeing with me!

So you say to yourself during my review "Oh, that's just her opinion?" Fine. You're right. Frankly, I don't feel the need to call on the quality of the review 99% of the time because usually I feel that the quality is obviously at least decent. I think that the ANN columnists can manage to spell correctly, even if I do find a couple of them rude and obnoxious.

In fact, I can only think of one instance in which I thought a review was just unfair. That was when Mao-chan was reviewed with a D or an F (this was awhile ago) because it was "Sugary fluff that will inevitably be defended by people who like sugary fluff even though it sucks" but Steel Angel Kurumi got an B or so because "Even though it's complete fluff with no real value, it's a lot of fun!"

<<Really? Do you even read AOD? He even liked junk like Mao-chan. That's wicked sugary.>>

I did read AoD for a very long time, even though I often disagreed with them(him?). I think I stopped a few months before Mao-chan came out. I still occasionally check it out out of curiousity just to see how he rates shows I like, like Wedding Peach. But I don't go on the forums and bitch about it, because I don't really entertain any hope of anyone on AoD changing their opinions to suit my taste. After reading ANN's columns for a few months I stopped entertaining any hopes that any of those would suit similar tastes to mine, either, but I was pleasantly surprised with the review of 12 Kingdoms.

Notice how I haven't been going on the forum and being an "obnoxious fangirl" for a month or two? That's because I'm not bothering. All in all, I think I was only an "obnoxious fangirl" two or three times over the course of the same amount of months until I decided that the reviewers just didn't have my tastes in general and decided only to check out reviews out of curiousity. Like I said, 12 Kingdoms made me decide that the side column was worth checking out again.

<>

I didn't disagree with his rating of the first volume. I disagreed with his rating of the last volumes. Despite what you want to assert, I do look at his ratings for subsequent volumes. 12 Kingdoms was an unusual exception to that, because I haven't been back there in a long time (Even then, I think I looked at his grades for the next two or three volumes. I don't remember them being A's, but maybe my memory serves me incorrectly.)

Maybe it's almost the same as an F if you're being an obnoxious and sarcastic, but generally, no. Since you seem to have this down to artform no matter how hard I try to be civil, though, this post will serve as the proverbial finger as I drive past you on the interstate.
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