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Lupin III - The Woman Called Fujiko Mine (TV).


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belindabird
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Joined: 23 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:19 pm Reply with quote
I should probably be more clear in saying that I didn't personally feel alienated by this episode, but I'm left questioning whether or not the show will be something I'm comfortable recommending to a mixed audience of other adults, or whether it'll end up being too much for people with a low tolerance to the material or who are more sensitive to anime's general tendency to exclude various groups of people. I'm actually all for the portrayal of sexually-aggressive women in anime meant for an adult audience and I don't think that nudity automatically equals exploitation, but I do think that framing and camera angles do paint a certain picture and I'm curious to see how this particular series plays out as a whole in that respect.

I'm also very invested in the show as an example of female-led output (since the series director is a woman and as I've mentioned I enjoyed Michiko to Hatchin, her other work), but I'm a realist in accepting that women can be a party to their own marginalization. I mean, the entire production staff of this anime really has me drooling; it would have to be really terrible for me to not watch it.

Sorry if I come across as a buzz-kill, but that's not my intent. I just notice that a lot of the time people who criticize an otherwise well-received property based on standards that the majority might disagree with aren't always treated very well, and I wanted to offer my perspective on the matter, since this is a subject I'm personally very invested in as a female fan.
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ikillchicken
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Joined: 12 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:29 pm Reply with quote
belindabird wrote:
Which is not to say that everyone else feels this way specifically, but I don't think it's a concern that should be so easily dismissed.


Honestly, I think it should. It seems totally absurd to me that a show that does so many interesting things comes along and all people have to say is: "But what about the BOOBS!"
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belindabird
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:52 pm Reply with quote
I think Redline (for a related example) did a lot of amazing things as well, but that doesn't mean that it didn't have major problems with misogyny and that they shouldn't be mentioned just because most critics (and myself) agree that it's a movie worth seeing. I'm sorry that you don't agree with me on this, but I personally try not to make a habit of dismissing legitimate criticisms from people who are likely to be directly affected by the fallout from ignoring the shortcomings of the subject matter.

"TEH BOOBZ" isn't all people have to say about the show; all of the Preview Guide critics have rated it highly on its artistry and direction while still mentioning the nudity as something that might be concerning to some viewers. The only reason that this has even become an issue at all is because some people think that counter-arguments from people who are put off by some of the content aren't worth acknowledging. I don't think that most of the people commenting on this series are of the mindset that "boobs = will not watch/this series is ruined," but I do think that there are a lot of fans who equate a minor negative criticism with "you are attacking a thing that I like and are therefore attacking me personally" and so people with differing opinions get bombarded until they leave the conversation.

I'm going to stop unintentionally derailing the topic, but I'd just like to offer up an interesting blog post I read recently entitled "How to be a Fan of Problematic Things" which lays out my feelings much better than I am apparently capable of:

http://www.socialjusticeleague.net/​2011/​09/​how-​to-​be-​a-​fan-​of-​problematic-​things/​

I mean, I like this anime a lot. I'm not going to sit and pretend there aren't a few problems with it, though, and I'm not going to criticize people who aren't interested in watching it because of those problems.
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ikillchicken
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:22 pm Reply with quote
belindabird wrote:
I do think that there are a lot of fans who equate a minor negative criticism with "you are attacking a thing that I like and are therefore attacking me personally" and so people with differing opinions get bombarded until they leave the conversation.


Now that's just bull. You can go ahead and think what you want but don't you dare start trying to undermine those that disagree with you with accusations like this.

I don't think that having a lot of nudity is an issue. I don't think that because I'm incapable of accepting minor criticism or of differentiating between criticism of myself and criticism of a show I like. I think it's not an issue because I genuinely don't think it is an issue. End of story.
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SoandSo



Joined: 13 Feb 2010
Posts: 203

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:27 pm Reply with quote
Aw lord, wot has I dun? Anime hyper

To clarify, I wasn't knocking anything about all the nudity. While it was initally a bit of a shock and I ultimately find the gratuity of it all really silly, it doesn't really bother me one bit, and all the people saying it's far less fanservice-y and voyueristic than otaku moe pandering fare have a point.(Though I'd contest the show does anything that interesting beyond be pretty at this early stage, either. I saw this thing raw and it was unbelievably easy to follow and predict.)

What disturbs me somewhat is seeing people then attempt to argue that the nudity is tasteful, that this is not, in fact, gratuity that they are seeing. Which it absolutely is. No question. Period. Yes, Fujiko's still neat and fun to watch, but a good 75% of all the flopping tits and spankings and stripping and grinding was not at all neccesary. At all. It's just there to reinforce and play up the dirty, gritty, noir-ish sleaze the show's new tone is going for. And it works, it's enjoyable, it nails the effect it's going for, but the words "tasteful" and "restraint" have no place here. Hell, this is Lupin. The dude's spoiler[bodysurfing a giant statue of drugs off a tiered city and into the ocean with a Gullivan-sized inflatable raft.]

The key word is "sleaze" with a capital S. That's what this is. Dirty, edgy, Grindhouse-y sleave. And that's fine, it doesn't bug me, it doesn't have to bug you. I just wish people would be more honest with themselves and stop trying to play it off as more than that just to deflect potential cries of FANSERVICE EWW. Don't get so lost in your kneejerk fangasming over this show that you confuse style for high art.
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AmpersandsUnited



Joined: 22 Mar 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:37 pm Reply with quote
Sleazy? Dirty? Rolling Eyes Could America stop being America for one minute and stop demonizing any instance of the exposed female body. Here in the Netherlands it's no big deal.
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belindabird
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:40 pm Reply with quote
I'm not trying to undermine anyone, I'm only speaking from personal experience of having taken a lot of criticisms of things I've liked personally when they're not intended in that way. I'm also trying to make things a little more welcoming for people who don't agree with the majority. It's one of the reasons why I usually end up as a lurker (case in point: this thread).

I mean, if you're saying "I don't care if something bothers someone else because it doesn't bother me," then I guess I can't really agree with that line of thinking. It's easy enough just to say "I personally didn't find this [controversial element] to be a problem" without phrasing it in a way that makes other people who disagree feel stupid about it.

But since you don't think it's an issue, I guess you won this discussion, and therefore the internet. Confused

SoandSo wrote:
Yes, Fujiko's still neat and fun to watch, but a good 75% of all the flopping tits and spankings and stripping and grinding was not at all neccesary.


Hah! I think this description captures the feel perfectly. And you're right; it's probably best not to take this too seriously, even if the show itself has a really cool look (and is honestly more interesting to look at than many other shows that would probably be more easily classified as "art").

AmpersandsUnited wrote:
...stop demonizing any instance of the exposed female body.


I don't think that's the intent (at least it's not mine), but it's difficult not to comment on it when instances of exposed male bodies aren't as liberally sprinkled throughout media.
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SoandSo



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:47 pm Reply with quote
AmpersandsUnited wrote:
Sleazy? Dirty? Rolling Eyes Could America stop being America for one minute and stop demonizing any instance of the exposed female body. Here in the Netherlands it's no big deal.


Err, yeah. spoiler[OP nipple pinching, fingering old dudes during wedding ceremonies, harem concubines, said concubines being spanked and forced to nuzzle said old dude boners...] totally chaste and innocent. Surely this is just the church goggles talking. Laughing

Belindabird nailed it; it's fun and all, but how anyone can call this show "tasteful" with a straight face is hilarious. It's fine, it's not an issue. Just be honest, accept it and have fun.
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jsc315



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Posts: 924

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:03 pm Reply with quote
The thing is she is a very sexual character always has been. So to chastise the show because it is just silly and uneducated. If anyone that actually knows anything at all about Lupin and Fujiko you would know nudity in this show is nothing new at all has been going on for 40 years.

I'll say it once again, her character is a very open sexual creature. She uses that to her advantage. Also it's done a hell of a lot more tasteful then so many other fan service shows do as well. If you so uncomfortable with seeing boobs then maybe you have deeper issues then some drawn boobs shown in Japan.


Quote:
I don't think that having a lot of nudity is an issue. I don't think that because I'm incapable of accepting minor criticism or of differentiating between criticism of myself and criticism of a show I like. I think it's not an issue because I genuinely don't think it is an issue. End of story.


I agree with this completely. It's stupid and childish to even argue that there are pixelated boobies on a TV.


Last edited by jsc315 on Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:09 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Surrender Artist
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:07 pm Reply with quote
I really hope we someday get an interview from Sayo Yamamoto, or Mari Okada, so that she can explain her creative intentions.

AmpersandsUnited wrote:
Sleazy? Dirty? Rolling Eyes Could America stop being America for one minute and stop demonizing any instance of the exposed female body. Here in the Netherlands it's no big deal.


Perhaps they would be more willing if you were to reciprocate and stop being Europe for a minute by doing something other than resorting to stereotypes and condescension rather than engaging what anybody's written.

This all has the potential, however scant, to become a something interesting, but I don't think that anybody wants it to consume the discussion thread, so if things don't seem to quiet down soon, maybe it should be taken to it's own "Fujiko's Boobs" thread or something.
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ikillchicken
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:32 am Reply with quote
belindabird wrote:
I mean, if you're saying "I don't care if something bothers someone else because it doesn't bother me,"


That's a very loaded way to put it. I'm saying that I don't think there's any real reason this should especially bother anyone.

Quote:
But since you don't think it's an issue, I guess you won this discussion, and therefore the internet. Confused


I don't even know what this is supposed to mean. If you're going to resort to empty sarcasm please at least try and make sense.

SoandSo wrote:
Don't get so lost in your kneejerk fangasming over this show that you confuse style for high art.


You know, I'd take all these criticism a whole lot more seriously if they didn't all immediately devolve into flailing ad hominem attacks the moment anyone disagrees with them.
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egoist
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:11 am Reply with quote
People turning your first thread into rubbish, not very lucky.

I'll definitely give this a shot later. My only experience with Lupin III was a crossover with Detective Conan, and I really liked it. What kept me away was probably the age and condition of the franchise. It's a bit all over the place, like Gundam.
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Animerican14



Joined: 19 Aug 2006
Posts: 779
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:01 am Reply with quote
egoist wrote:
People turning your first thread into rubbish, not very lucky.

Hah, I'm not minding it... uh, too much. It's not like Lupin III, at least from what we've seen so far, is going to be a series where the time in between episodes is filled with "Oh, Gee, what a cliff hanger!" or "Man oh man what's gonna be happening!"-- you know, edge-of-your-seat questioning and speculation. Really, after what I felt to be a relatively slow start for this thread, I was thinking this would receive actual little discussion, but to my surprise, it's gone off for two pages. And really, I think an active thread authored by me that involves a prolonged discussion on nudity/sexuality in Lupin is better than an inactive topic, hah. Smile I just hope this won't be the absolute centerpiece of discussion for the show's entire run.

Moving on... I'm feeling pretty darn good about the Funico announcement for Lupin III, now. My fears of 240-360p picture quality (which were founded on the Madoka dub premieres) were assuaged when I actually took a few minutes to look at shows that are streaming on NicoNico right now. I just hope nothing will be done to tone the visual content down, because if it is toned down... well, whatever darkened spots or bars of light put into a show of this aesthetic style will make such censorship seem perfectly natural in the shiny 21st century aesthetics of other shows.
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jsc315



Joined: 09 Aug 2004
Posts: 924

PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:15 am Reply with quote
egoist wrote:
People turning your first thread into rubbish, not very lucky.

I'll definitely give this a shot later. My only experience with Lupin III was a crossover with Detective Conan, and I really liked it. What kept me away was probably the age and condition of the franchise. It's a bit all over the place, like Gundam.


The great thing about Lupin a few episodes a movie a and a special or 2 and your hooked. It really does not matter where you start. Though I do not recommend some of the newer specials or Pink Jacket Lupin if you could even find it. If you have Netflix I highly recommend The Castle of Cagliostro.
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belindabird
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:22 pm Reply with quote
I posted more complete impressions of the first episode on my blog:

http://s1e1.com/​2012/​04/​lupin-​the-​third-​the-​woman-​called-​fujiko-​minefirst-​episode-​review.​html

Hopefully it does a better job of outlining my thoughts on the matter than I've been able to do here. the tl;dr version is that, in spite of some problematic elements, I like the show so far.

I'm definitely looking forward to the second episode, though I wish there were more information on when Funimation plans to start streaming it.
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