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Jose Cruz



Joined: 20 Nov 2012
Posts: 1357
Location: Serra Gaucha/Minnesota
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:30 pm Reply with quote
On flip flappers: Are they like really lesbians? I think their relationship can be interpreted as platonic.

Also, Papika is an animalistic character anyway so behaving like a dog is expected.
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yuna49



Joined: 27 Aug 2008
Posts: 2402
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:17 pm Reply with quote
I thought one theme of Flip Flappers was Cocona's working out her sexual identity as part of its general coming-of-age subtext.

The writers certainly included many yuri hints in the show, especially spoiler[the nailclippers, the boarding school episode, and the negligee scene]. I don't know if I'd be as dismissive of Papika's love for Cocona as Chiibi is, but I agree that Papika's backstory and motivation was a bit strange to say the least.
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louis6578



Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 1297
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:13 pm Reply with quote
In general, not just anime, mediocrity is worse than being particularly bad in terms of entertainment value. I'd rather watch Big Order than Samurai Deeper Kyo.

Also, it's better for an anime to create its own ending if its going to be discontinued because the manga is ongoing than it is to just stop in the middle of an arc. Berserk's ending is worse than Ouran's or Great Teacher Onizuka's.
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Chiibi



Joined: 19 Dec 2011
Posts: 3738
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:36 pm Reply with quote
Jose Cruz wrote:


Also, Papika is an animalistic character anyway so behaving like a dog is expected.


Which makes any ship with her feel ALL THE MORE WEIRD.

For me, at least.
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louis6578



Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 1297
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:28 pm Reply with quote
Like it's any worse than the single worst character from Black Butler (seasons one or two): Pluto. This character was an insulting, annoying, childish, pandering to the lowest demographic of viewer THING. For the record, I think it's fair to say that I don't mind furry characters or pet characters. Heck, I don't even really mind the whole "person is a cat-demon so they say 'nyan' every few sentences" thing. What I do mind is that Pluto is supposed to be a sex fantasy come to life. Whatever "comedic" scenes he's in always have this undertone of -wink wink- to them. Not to mention that he's naked half the time, jumps on people like a dog, and basically IS a dog in the body of an unreasonably bishounen adult man in a show meant for kids and teenagers.

I think he's in the same realm as Aoshi from Rurouni Kenshin in terms of popularity among the fans. That is to say that most people I've met have reacted to my dislike of him with a "Really? I thought he was a good character." Then after I state my first two or three complaints about him, most people would start to reconsider and say "Really...? Huh. It's been a while since I watched it. Thinking back, he was never my favorite part."

I would be sincerely surprised to find anyone that specifically likes Pluto. I don't even have a problem with the archetype he's apart of. It's just the portrayal that irks me. If he were a fully clothed shota boy who could talk in broken sentences, this behavior would be... mildly cute I guess. As a full grown adult who rarely gets dressed!? Heck no! And before anyone says "But Louis, this isn't his real form. He's actually a demon hound thing that looks like a big dog!" I implore you to ask yourselves this: Why did the writers give him this human form? They could've given him a dog form and it would have been much more appropriate and charming!

I don't HATE the archetype he's a part of either. The archetype of the fanservice-y character who acts developmentally disabled is a VERY difficult one to pull off. I'll just say that I actually liked the cat-girl from K Project, and Chii from Chobits might have been the first time I thought an anime girl was REALLY cute (in more of the way that Maes Hughes thinks his daughter is cute though. I'm not into the whole "cute girl who is so childlike that you need to wipe her bum for her" thing. It's creepy and draining when you really think about it).

Before anyone says "Oh! Those are all girl examples! You're just as guilty as the rest of us!" I'll reply now. No I'm not. There just aren't many male examples to choose from, and I've seen female versions of this type done VERY poorly. Chii develops and grows. She goes from only saying "Chii" to being able to learn enough about the world and social norms to hold a job and buy clothes. Then again, Chobits is one of the few good Magical Girlfriend shows that isn't Star vs The Forces of Evil so... that's why. By contrast, Nyu from Elfen Lied is a terrible example of this archetype. She only exists to artificially create tension and drama, and unlike Chii, she doesn't really move beyond being an adult-sized baby waifu.

Most good male versions that come to mind aren't fanservice characters, but they are good characters nonetheless. Yopopo from Gash Bell was adorable and I'm not ashamed to admit that his episode still makes me cry. Shippo from Inuyasha isn't godawful or anything, though he does feel a bit tagged on. Some of the cooler Digimon are human-type animals.

I think the key to making this archetype work is to make the character cute, not sexy. Adorable, not "smokin' hot." That's inherently easier with females over the age of 15 than it is with males in the same range, but when you have a grown naked man running around the mansion with NO ONE complaining, I start to wonder if I bought Black Butler, or a shota fanservice show with yaoi scenes.
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yuna49



Joined: 27 Aug 2008
Posts: 2402
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:28 pm Reply with quote
I thought Kimi no Na wa was pretty but boring.
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louis6578



Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 1297
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:40 pm Reply with quote
Gee, if you think your name is boring, why not change it? Razz

No one? Aww...
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Mandragoras



Joined: 09 Oct 2017
Posts: 5
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:33 pm Reply with quote
I liked Wolf's Rain better than Cowboy Bebop and got more invested in its characters overall. Both are series which I respect more than I love, but with the latter the gap is wider.
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louis6578



Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 1297
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:31 am Reply with quote
Mandragoras wrote:
I liked Wolf's Rain better than Cowboy Bebop and got more invested in its characters overall. Both are series which I respect more than I love, but with the latter the gap is wider.


I can see that happening quite often honestly. It's not very easy to get invested emotionally in Cowboy Bebop. It's very Style over Substance. Wolf's Rain is the opposite. It focuses a lot more on the characters' inner mechanics.

As for me, I personally thought Space Dandy was Watanabe's best work, so you KNOW I'm in the minority. =D Also, I know Watanabe didn't really do Wolf's Rain, but I'm counting it anyway because he's basically the only member of the Cowboy Bebop staff to not move on to Wolf's Rain.
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louis6578



Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 1297
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:48 pm Reply with quote
The rating system that most people use on MAL is flawed and wrong. Everyone seems to do this thing where they rate several aspects of a show and then average out the number like this:

Story - 4
Characters - 10
Art - 6
Animation - 9
Music - 8
Voice Acting - 6
Personal Enjoyment - 8
Overall: 7.3

This is stupid. Why should ANYTHING matter when rating an anime except for the "personal enjoyment." I actually told a friend of mine that I give season one of SAO a 3/10 and he acted like I rated it wrong. "The animation and music is so great! How is it anything less than a 6!?" I don't care how good you THINK anything is. Everything you rate is just your own opinion. ART is subjective so I don't know how anyone can think that there's a solid consensus on SAO's art. Some people I know are stupid and wrong and hate JoJo's Bizarre Adventure's art because they're pathetic plebs (JEEZ! I'M KIDDING GUYS! CALM DOWN!) while I think it's perfect. Animation is easier since it's just how well the art moves on the screen, but who is to say that Kill La Kill shouldn't get a 10/10 in that? The background characters (such as nameless henchmen) look the EXACT same and the movement is stuff you could pull off in clip art, but it's wholly intentional. Meanwhile, I know some people who would give the Ufotable adaptation of UBW a 10/10 because everything looks pretty, but others who would give it lower because most of the action scenes just result in the same generic energy blast light shows.

Finally, there's music, which is entirely subjective so there's no point in going into it. Even if you think a music fits a scene perfectly, someone else might not. Voice acting can be judged, sure, but what if you watched the show dubbed? Should the rest of the show be dragged down solely because it wasn't localized very well here?

And finally, we get to the ONLY thing that matters and the number I will always use when rating a show. My own personal enjoyment. How much did I like the show? Isn't that what you're asking when you tell me to rate something?

What's more, I love some shows that aren't animated that well like Princess Tutu and Golden Time. Music is important, but some of my favorite anime have kind of generic OSTs (Fate/Zero's BGM isn't Yuki Kajura's best, to be honest). I'll be upfront and say that Wolf's Rain wasn't that great to me despite it being perfect in terms of technical design. It's still worth watching, but for me personally, I'd give it a 7/10 (though when I first watched it, it was closer to a 9.
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