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Anime in America: Carl and Theron's Best of 2008


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Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1194
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:03 am Reply with quote
dewlwieldthedarpachief wrote:
@Top Gun:
Why is that important? They're dumb TV shows. Are you just saying that it's okay for TV shows to have their facts wrong only to a certain degree? Granted anyone who knows enough might object to mistakes that are obvious to them. There are specific genres of Television programming where this is especially crucial. But what about the Looney Toons? That show doesn't even CARE about physics, yet despite our realizing that it's completely wrong we don't care because it's entertaining anyway. And in it's day, Looney Toons was more or less modern day. I should think misrepresentations of the laws of science should be far more damaging to viewers who are not aware of them than the specifics of a religion.

If you can find me even one person over the age of five who is "not aware" that Looney Tunes is not an accurate portrayal of real-world physics, I will gladly pay you a very large sum of money. I am able to present you the award for construction of about the most unrelated strawman I've ever seen right up-front, though.

Quote:
If there's a show wherein the entertainment value depends on it's factual accuracy then I will agree that when it get's those facts horrendously wrong there is some explaining to be done. Putting that lens over a show that clearly does not care about them though, what are you trying to accomplish? The creators may even be aware of some of these mistakes, we don't know the intentions on their part; even if it was a mistake it still doesn't really matter because the entertainment value doesn't hinge on that success. Way to be anal.

The creators chose to set their show in that particular setting, even though there was no pressing reason for them to do so. The aims of the show could have been achieved just as well at a secular school. The fact that they made this decision causes me to place on them at least a bare minimum expectation that they should get their setting right. Since they seemingly completely failed to do so, I don't hold out hopes for any other aspect of the series being of sufficient quality to entertain me. Not that I would watch such a show anyway, since I find its genre to be about the most banal out there.

(Oh, and way to be a troll.)
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dewlwieldthedarpachief



Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 235
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:45 am Reply with quote
Top Gun wrote:
If you can find me even one person over the age of five who is "not aware" that Looney Tunes is not an accurate portrayal of real-world physics, I will gladly pay you a very large sum of money. I am able to present you the award for construction of about the most unrelated strawman I've ever seen right up-front, though.


That's fair, I did jump the gun on that.

Top Gun wrote:
The creators chose to set their show in that particular setting, even though there was no pressing reason for them to do so. The aims of the show could have been achieved just as well at a secular school. The fact that they made this decision causes me to place on them at least a bare minimum expectation that they should get their setting right. Since they seemingly completely failed to do so, I don't hold out hopes for any other aspect of the series being of sufficient quality to entertain me. Not that I would watch such a show anyway, since I find its genre to be about the most banal out there.

(Oh, and way to be a troll.)


Who cares if it's made for Japan? I would completely understand and agree with your position if you were the target audience. What you want usually doesn't and usually shouldn't matter to anime producers; if you want to point a finger why not look to the North American distributor?

Aside from that, you have your own personal tastes and opinions about what constitutes a show worth watching so there's nothing wrong with saying why you don't like it, but if you turn that into criticisms of the show you have to consider the goal of the show's production. Instead you just give the reasons why you should think so and I disagree that that is a valid criticism.

If wanting to talk to Carl about something he said in the forum pertaining to that topic makes me a troll, then I'll eat goats to extinction. I could equally accuse the couple people who responded of being trolls because they took the opportunity to address me when I didn't invite it.
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Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1194
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:01 am Reply with quote
dewlwieldthedarpachief wrote:

Who cares if it's made for Japan? I would completely understand and agree with your position if you were the target audience. What you want usually doesn't and usually shouldn't matter to anime producers; if you want to point a finger why not look to the North American distributor?

I don't care which audience it was intended for; I don't want inaccuracies foisted upon Japanese audiences any more than I want to view them. In this case, the fact that it was intended for a Japanese audience adds even more weight to the case, since I'm guessing that the average Japanese viewer has little to no personal experience with either Christianity in general or Catholicism in particular to spot the inaccuracy. When one deals with any religion, one is dealing with the core spiritual beliefs and personal values of a very large segment of the world's population. Flinging the concept around as a complete frivolity is irresponsible at best.

Quote:
If wanting to talk to Carl about something he said in the forum pertaining to that topic makes me a troll, then I'll eat goats to extinction. I could equally accuse the couple people who responded of being trolls because they took the opportunity to address me when I didn't invite it.

No, what makes you a troll is tossing around insults like "anal." And to say that something you've posted in a public thread isn't fair game for general responses just because you "didn't invite it" is rather laughable.
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farruinn



Joined: 07 Dec 2008
Posts: 122
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:02 am Reply with quote
What did Carl mean by the director's "cold perfection" in reference to Moribito? I watched the series after reading the article, but I have no idea what he meant by this.
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dewlwieldthedarpachief



Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 235
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:30 am Reply with quote
Top Gun wrote:
I don't care which audience it was intended for; I don't want inaccuracies foisted upon Japanese audiences any more than I want to view them. In this case, the fact that it was intended for a Japanese audience adds even more weight to the case, since I'm guessing that the average Japanese viewer has little to no personal experience with either Christianity in general or Catholicism in particular to spot the inaccuracy. When one deals with any religion, one is dealing with the core spiritual beliefs and personal values of a very large segment of the world's population. Flinging the concept around as a complete frivolity is irresponsible at best.


Ah, now I see. You think TV has a duty to be not full of lies when it might not be obvious, I think that's reasonable and in that light its poor on the part of the creators. How bad that is though, I'm not so certain. I think that because the focus isn't the Catholicism itself it's possible to overlook it.

Quote:

No, what makes you a troll is tossing around insults like "anal." And to say that something you've posted in a public thread isn't fair game for general responses just because you "didn't invite it" is rather laughable.


Insults like anal can hardly be considered insults; I accused you of being overly meticulous, what do you expect? If I just sit around calling people picky that's one thing, but I'm saying that because of your response to what I said before.

If I didn't think it was fair game I would have just ignored everyone but Carl; other people are good too, all I'm saying is that you chose to get involved when I didn't necessarily intend you to.
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Dorcas_Aurelia
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Joined: 23 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:31 am Reply with quote
dewlwieldthedarpachief wrote:
What I did not claim to know was why Catholics or anyone else had a problem with the representation of he religion in anime; Carl made that more or less clear. I do challenge that view however. In light of the show's content it seemed strange to me.

Wait, what view do you challenge? I'll try to avoid putting words in your mouth here, because that could end up making both of us look very even more stupid.

Quote:
If you'll read carefully what I wrote previously you will notice I simply said "homosexual priests". I do not maintain the view that homosexuality equates pedophilia; if you consider that to be true then you are bigoted and ignorant of science. Rather I mentioned homosexual priests to reference men in the priesthoods of various Christian sects who have made controversy for the public discovery of their sexual orientation. "If priests can be gay then why not nuns" isn't a great leap of logic from there, unless of course you're an ignorant bigot.

If you'll read what I said carefully, you'll notice I was talking about changing the views of the organization, not individuals within hte organization. Also, who said anything about pedophilia? Also, thank you for the bullying by way of name calling. Does that count as argumentum ad baculum or ad hominem

Quote:
Then you have the nerve to tell me I hurt your feelings because I have an opinion and you disagree - again. I guess you're taking no prisoners.

Way to focus on the transitional phrasing rather then the point of the paragraph.

Quote:
Just in case you're wondering, it's not immoral to make fiction.

Nonsense, all fictional is unquestionably immoral, and you are damned to Hell for thinking otherwise.

dewlwieldthedarpachief wrote:
Top Gun wrote:
No, what makes you a troll is tossing around insults like "anal." And to say that something you've posted in a public thread isn't fair game for general responses just because you "didn't invite it" is rather laughable.


Insults like anal can hardly be considered insults; I accused you of being overly meticulous, what do you expect? If I just sit around calling people picky that's one thing, but I'm saying that because of your response to what I said before.

Really? Name calling isn't intended as an insult? You had already established you're point that Top Gun was lavishing excessive scrutiny; throwing in the after thought of Top Gun's likeness to a rectum added nothing productive.
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dewlwieldthedarpachief



Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 235
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:02 am Reply with quote
Dorcas_Aurelia wrote:

Wait, what view do you challenge? I'll try to avoid putting words in your mouth here, because that could end up making both of us look very even more stupid.


That's Carl's stance; even if we're all completely wrong about this that does not make us stupid btw. It would be stupid to just go either way without justifying your position. Even though I'm hostile towards the expectation that in reality it is a problem if there are inconsistencies with some aspects of a TV show that while important aren't everything I'm glad when the person on the other end isn't without some foundations.

Quote:
If you'll read what I said carefully, you'll notice I was talking about changing the views of the organization, not individuals within hte organization. Also, who said anything about pedophilia? Also, thank you for the bullying by way of name calling. Does that count as argumentum ad baculum or ad hominem


I did read it, and I decided it wasn't clear what you said so I responded by clarifying what I was talking about. It wasn't an accusation to say you might have been implying that.

Quote:
Way to focus on the transitional phrasing rather then the point of the paragraph.


Alright, please explain it then.

Quote:
dewlwieldthedarpachief wrote:
Top Gun wrote:
No, what makes you a troll is tossing around insults like "anal." And to say that something you've posted in a public thread isn't fair game for general responses just because you "didn't invite it" is rather laughable.


Insults like anal can hardly be considered insults; I accused you of being overly meticulous, what do you expect? If I just sit around calling people picky that's one thing, but I'm saying that because of your response to what I said before.

Really? Name calling isn't intended as an insult? You had already established you're point that Top Gun was lavishing excessive scrutiny; throwing in the after thought of Top Gun's likeness to a rectum added nothing productive.


The word "hardly" was used with the intention of implying that the degree of the insult was intended for indignant punctuation, not blatant slander. Do you know what it means when you call someone anal? It references a Freudian idea about a child's fascination with feces and the characteristics associated with that, one of them being overt meticulousness, which is what the usage of "anal" means in this context. I don't expect everyone to know that much about the word, but there you go. (and even if I was likening Top Gun to a sphincter I don't see how that's bad; the anal sphincters keeps feces in which in a figurative sense I obviously do not think is the case with Mr. Gun, so I dunno where you're coming with that one.)

Apart from that, would you say you agree about the excessive scrutiny? I think the principles are good but when you introduce them to the real world there isn't room for that kind of nitpicking. I'm sure there are a great deal more significant things in the show worth criticizing when you put the issue of Catholicism in perspective.

Just a reminder: I'm not saying that the problem does not matter, I'm saying it shouldn't matter enough to merit special attention.
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Key
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 4531
Location: Indianapolis (formerly Mimiho Valley)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:04 am Reply with quote
dewlwieldthedarpachief wrote:
Just a reminder: I'm not saying that the problem does not matter, I'm saying it shouldn't matter enough to merit special attention.


But you have to remember that even picking that award to give, much less picking what to give it to, was entirely subjective on Carl's part. (We didn't consult each other at all on those individual awards.) He saw it as a problem worthy of special attention, therefore it got an award. Thus the point of whether or not it's worth special attention is entirely moot.
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dewlwieldthedarpachief



Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 235
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:02 pm Reply with quote
I'm going to figure out how to ask questions without initializing the forum apocalypse. It's so not worth our time doing this. I just wish I knew how not to.
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doc-watson42
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Joined: 10 Feb 2003
Posts: 776
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:49 pm Reply with quote
dewlwieldthedarpachief wrote:
There's an entire genre of film dubbed "nunspoitation" that I guess is expressly movies about nuns who burst under their religious pressures and go on sexual rampages and killing sprees.

See www [dot] nunsploitation [dot] net (it's not my site, but is owned by a friend).

dewlwieldthedarpachief wrote:
I think there is even a subgenre of hentai that goes that path as well.

It's a rather small one—the shows that I know of that are wholly devoted (ahem) to it are The Dark Chapel, Holy Virgins, and Love Doll (though the latter is more in the Catholic schoolgirl genre) in Region 1, and the obscure Mogitate Marina-chan in Region 2. There are about nineteen other hentai series in which nuns make an appearance, though some instances are of cosplay. (I keep a list—see my .sig at the Mania.com Anime/Manga forums.)

:::

Regarding parodies of The Graduate, see this Mania.com thread I started on the subject—Strawberry Panic is not the first, or only, instance.
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Dorcas_Aurelia
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Joined: 23 Jul 2006
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Location: Philly, PA; stupid Yankees.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:34 pm Reply with quote
dewlwieldthedarpachief wrote:
I did read it, and I decided it wasn't clear what you said so I responded by clarifying what I was talking about. It wasn't an accusation to say you might have been implying that.

I started at how the Church scandal is more about the cover-up than the indiscretion of the individual priests, and people are more angry at the hierarchy for sweeping problems under the rug than dealing with them. Then I meant to say that series portraying figures of authority in Catholicism giving implicit approval of actions contradictory to the Church's teachings doesn't follow from an issue where a large number of individuals have violated the teachings and attempted to hide those violations.

dewlwieldthedarpachief wrote:
Dorcas_Aurelia wrote:
Way to focus on the transitional phrasing rather then the point of the paragraph.

Alright, please explain it then.

The use of an exotic setting may be acceptable for only superficial means, but should not be used when it presents important aspects in an egregiously incorrect manner which might be mistaken as valid.
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billyarnie



Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 189
Location: San Antonio, TX
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:51 pm Reply with quote
farruinn wrote:
What did Carl mean by the director's "cold perfection" in reference to Moribito? I watched the series after reading the article, but I have no idea what he meant by this.

IMHO, he thinks Kenji Kamiyama is too cold in his direction. Here's more:
Quote:
Director Kenji Kamiyama directs Moribito with the same cold perfection that turned me off of his Ghost in the Shell television series...

And since he dissed 2 of my favorite shows, he has no street cred! Wink Theron & I are in the same Witchblade-lovers camp, for disclosure, & the reviewer who didn't give high marks to Witchblade Vols. 2 & 3? His initials are Carl Kimlinger...
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SongstressCela



Joined: 26 Sep 2008
Posts: 571
Location: Pennsylvania
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:07 pm Reply with quote
Interesting writeup! Big props on Laruku's "Shine" opener, too! I love Shine, so much. It totally reminds me of their older style, like Driver's High or something.

Still...
Quote:

Theron: I don't have a high opinion of this series from a reviewer's standpoint


What the heck is that supposed to mean? e_e
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