Forum - View topicWhat makes a character more than a cut out?
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Vaisaga
 Posts: 13226 |
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So as to not send the fanservice thread further off topic, I'll start a new one.
So you often hear how shows feature stereotypical, cliched, or "cardboard cut out" characters, that they only have a single overused personality trait and there's nothing more to them. Now let's put aside the stereotype and cliche part. Pretty much every idea has been done to death already and if any one of us were told to think of a completely original character on the spot we couldn't do it. So let's just focus on depth. I've seen and enjoyed a lot of fanservice anime in my day and I can't think of one that that had a lead female that wasn't more than her initial character setting. Sure there have been side characters that never went beyond "the best friend trying to hook up the main couple" or what have you, but that's not so important since they are just a supporting cast member. Plenty of people disagree, obviously, so I ask of them to describe what exactly makes a character 'deep', 'well rounded', '3 dimensional' or whatever your prefered choice of phrase is. Also, what do you consider to be "one trait"? I often see characters with multiple traits get lumped together into one. For example, by definition "tsundere" is actually two traits: abrasive and bashful. I think a character is fine if they have more than one trait, and by trait I mean a 'prime number' trait. A tough guy who cares for a stray puppy could be described as a "jerk with a heart of gold", but that's dividable into "jerk" and "heart of gold." He might appear to be a scary delinquent at first, but knowing he has a kind side makes him more than what he initially seemed. All characters should be Transformers: more than meets the eye. |
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Kruszer
 Posts: 7983 Location: Minnesota, USA |
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A character has depth if their personality, psychological mindset, principals, or morality are explored during the story, through speech, thoughts, or actions.
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Wrathful
 Posts: 372 |
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A character with depth is supposed be about his motivation for the long term why he does what he does and various expressions he is supposed to display when he is faced with trial. And as demonstrated repeated, I don't think harem will never have characters like that.
For one example that is most unlikely, Toradora is one of those romcom that I thought is going to be shallow romance but by the end, I think it executed well and at least main characters were no longer paperthin archetype trope. Those two at least had wide variety of emotions they displaced and some hopes, even background history why they were the way they were. Anime industry is often guilty of overplaying the tropes too much and cast the same seiyuu over and over again. By looking at that pattern, you know it's a trope that's got to go. Right now, the annoying trope that is popular is aloof and shy male teenager like the main character from Accel World, Guilty Crown and a lot more. |
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Errinundra
Moderator
 Posts: 6525 Location: Melbourne, Oz |
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I actually have a post already prepared for this thread! Especially given the OP reference to tsundere characters and Wrathful's reference to Toradora!. In my recent review of Toradora! in the What are you watching right now? Why? thread I edited out a discussion about tsunderes and depth because it seemed I was going off on too much of a tangent. The point I wanted to make was that Toradora!'s Taiga is the best "pure" tsundere I've encountered because her reaction to her family and school circumstances is an understandable rage that is overlayed upon her otherwise generous nature. The underlying development of the tsundere character has rarely been so convincingly portrayed. Oh, and by the way, I think that abrasive and caring is a better definition of tsundere than abrasive and bashful. Anyway, here's what I wrote (the first and last paragraphs still appear - slightly changed - in the other thread but I include them to provide context).
*** I’ll take a look at the central female character – Taiga – to illustrate how Toradora! works so well. Before I was even familiar with the series I was aware that Taiga was a tsundere pin-up girl and that Rie Kugimiya was the go to seiyuu for the character type. I like tsundere characters. Some of my favourite anime characters could be classified as tsundere – Rin Tohsaka from Fate / Stay Night and Holo from Spice and Wolf are two (but more on them shortly). Now, please allow me to classify tsundere characters into three types. 1) The innately tsundere. Here there is no catalyst or motivating force for the behaviour. Kyou Fujibayashi and Tomoyo Sakagami from Clannad or Rin Tohsaka from Fate / Stay Night are examples. They can still be fascinating characters if they have other qualities as well. Rin Tohsaka’s highly ironic sense of humour and her intellectual capacities make her exceptional for the type. It could be argued that the events of Fate / Zero have created her aggressive / frail behaviour patterns, but neither series makes that argument explicitly. Thus it must remain conjecture. 2) Love makes me tsundere. Here the (usually female) character is in love but is unable to deal with her feelings. She hates herself for it and transfers her anger onto the object of her desire. This leads to further confusion and shame. This is my least favourite tsundere type, entirely because the tsundere is defined in terms of the male protagonist. She starts off strong and usually ends up weak and dependent. A taming of the shrew, you might say. Ryoko and Ayeka from the Tenchi Muyo! franchise are examples of how disappointingly such characters can end up. A successful example of the type is Holo from Spice and Wolf because she is a wise wolf, understands exactly what is happening and plays with it, in the process driving Lawrence crackers. 3) Taiga Aisaka. In the second episode there are two defining moments for Taiga. In the first, Ryuji sums her up thusly,
*** I hope I've explained why I think Rin Tohsaka, Holo and Taiga Aisaka are more than cut out, while Kyou Fujibayashi, Tomoyo Sakagami, Ryoko and Ayeka are more deserving of the moniker. The two Clannad women may well be better developed in the original VN, which I haven't read. I still like them as characters, though. Another example of the type 2 tsundere who loses her appeal is Kaoru from Rurouni Kenshin. In the second season she has become so dependent that it's no wonder they added the redoubtable Misao. Last edited by Errinundra on Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:13 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13226 |
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Well I wouldn't give Taiga her own category, as there are plenty of tsunderes like that that have good reason to be abrasive (love is one of them so I wouldn't make it a separate type).
It's just that the reason a lot of tsunderes have, such is the case of Rin, is that they have a high degree of pride and because love can be seen as "weak" they won't be honest about it because of that pride. Same goes for tough girls like Kyou. Double so when the guy is seen as having undesirable qualities. That's usually enough for me. I mean, it's unrealistic to expect every single character to have some drama filled broken family back story. Some people grow up in completely unremarkable circumstances (like myself). Though I think tsunderes are done the best when they're aware of their tsundereness and attempt to correct that behaviour like Yui from To Love Ru. But yeah, Taiga is a pretty good example. Shame that they ruined it all with how they handled Ryuuji, but oh well. |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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I think the problem isn't the characters themselves, but the lack of plot to allow them to demonstrate their complexity.
So it's not about the lack of character, but the lack of plot. I think Taiga was well written personally, and I think she was adorable. But yeah, some things were definitely cliched and over-done about her, as is typical. The same is true in a more extreme sense with Louise from Familiar of Zero. But I did think there was more to her than just being a Tsundere. And Shana seemed to have some real conflicts about her feelings but also about everything else going on. I haven't seen the latter seasons of that but I imagine if they don't develop her more it's only because of a failure in the plot. Basically I think people are "assuming" characters are 2-dimensional because that's all they get to see, but those who like these shows can easily construct the rest of their personality from their own imagination. Like all other works of fiction, they aren't just what the writer writes but what the reader reads and imagines on top of it. Also, we make personality tests for regular human beings that show a lot of similarities exist between people. I'm sure no one completely agrees with the entire description of those categories, but there is usually going to be a lot of it that you can identify with. Last edited by Xanas on Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:10 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Errinundra
Moderator
Posts: 6525 Location: Melbourne, Oz |
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@Vaisaga,
I haven't seen another tsundere whose anger is so justifiable and so convincing. And it's all her own, not brought about by Ryuji. Perhaps I just haven't seen enough of the type. I classified the "love makes me tsundere" separately because I simply do not like female characters defined by their relationship to a male character. I suppose that's a matter of taste but, Holo aside (and she's so much more), I prefer female characters that a more independent. Finally, what was your problem with Ryuji? |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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Using Holo as an example of a well-developed character is something with which I can fully agree. I also love Spice & Wolf in general, because the lead is also interesting. From a character standpoint I can't think of any better shows really.
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Animegomaniac
Posts: 4081 |
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Drama is the antithesis of pure comedy which is the backbone of most harems. Further posts patting each other on the back confirming the same in depth without stating the obvious {drama good, comedy bad!} is all just a waste of time. With that said: Drama! Clannad. Nagisa is a physically frail girl but her spirit is strong and she hates being a burden on her family and new friends. It's up to the viewer to decide if her dependancy is a character flaw or a strength. Hey, a family is not made of one person... Kyou. The tomboy with the shy twin sister, she's forced into the position to be one of the boys {like Tomoyo} except she wants one person to treat her like a girl. Certainly Tomoya and most likely Sunaharo. Not that she'd ever admit it... Tomoyo, Kotomi and Fuko? Their situations inform their character, are their characters for the most part; I don't see how Tomoyo's story is so interesting as the delinquent who wants to reform herself by reforming other delinquents and also save some meaningful trees by becoming Student Council President {Wouldn't the former invalidate the latter in a realistic situation?}, how Kotomi is the ultimate forgotten childhood friend {before, during and after the main story...} or that Fuko is the ultimate sick girl who can't even develop past the fact that her illness is all that comprises her social interactions. Ryou is interesting as I can't tell if she's shy because her sister is so forthright or her sister is so greedy because Ryou is so giving. However, she's not a lead so she doesn't count. Poor Ryou... For me, what works is a backstory that not only colors the world they are in but also dictates their character arc {Provided they have a character arc, naturallly}. Works like True Tears has a disconnect between the backstory and the actual character arc; Ai's only a childhood friend because the backstory says as such {and she's a possible love interest because she's there?} but there's no proof in the series itself. Hiromi is stated to be the previous and first love interest for the main character but outside of their being cousins and therefore family, they don't seem to like each other that much. Noe has no such backstory with the main character, the series' main plot is about their developing relationship and her personality and the ending of the series makes all that a waste of time. The guy's a block of wood but so what? Most guys are.
Yeah, because Ryuji's family issues has nothing to do with the story, how he treats his friends or ow he treats his mother. Wait, what's wrong with Ryuji? |
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dragoneyes001
 Posts: 873 |
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you want a good example of characters that had depth?
look at bunny drop. the characters all had depth beyond simple cut outs. people are the sum of they're experiences. when you have a character that doesn't learn from their mistakes or simply is so shallow that they may as well be born yesterday. they become cut outs. its one thing to attribute a character trait like shyness or any other but when that trait becomes the sole defining factor of the characters behavior. regardless of the circumstances they find themselves in. it becomes a very boring character. another example of expanding character would be squid girl. sure she's not the deepest character but they constantly added her experiences to the mix or you wouldn't have the older sister scaring the crap out of her at the very thought of crossing her. then you have shows like code geas (sp?) where they to stretch the story reversed the leads original characteristic from the first two episodes where he was sociopathic without remorse. killing off his enemies. only to become incapable of doing so if it involved any of the "star characters" kind of tossed the entire series into the crapper really. this wasn't a case of learning or growing the character. the change was such an obvious re-write of the character to suite the expanding story I'm surprised it didn't get a lot more notice. problem with what they did was they ended up creating a cut out lead because they couldn't allow experience to dictate the outcome of the show which would have ended pretty quickly using the original character traits. |
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EricJ
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Exactly: Think one of the things that resonated with us in the old-school Rumiko Takahashi comedies was that no matter how "stock" a character was, they always had some bit of quirky moment-ruining that humanized them, and turned them into the same desperate poser for self-importance that we are in our most embarrassing moments-- Ryouga in Ranma 1/2, for example, the Fighting Rival who makes fiery challenges to our hero, despite the fact that it takes him three days to find his way around the block and he usually ends up in Hokkaido. Or Soun Tendo, caring father and serious martial-artist, who bursts into waterfalls of tears at the slightest concern for his daughters. Or Sakura from UY, the Powerful Spiritual Piestess, who discusses the forces threatening our heroes in a sultry, intimidating tone, while casually downing twelve parfaits like a vacuum cleaner. Or Mendou's claustrophobia (or his father, a titan of business who's oddness is occasionally hazardous to Mendou's health), or Akane's cooking, or Mitaka's dog-phobia, or Kunou being more of a posing idiot than he believes himself to be...Deep down, WE'RE all trying to pass ourselves off as Important Stock Characters and end up failing epically, and that's what made the comic characters more "human", and therefore more real. The big complaint about fanservice (to cross over into that other thread) is that the Haruhi-like stocking of modern anime with demographically appealing stock characters--look, a moe girl with glasses!--is there only to put the cardboard cutout in its assigned place, and not add that one extra note of audience identification that made a story great. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13226 |
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Excellent point. The ditzy big breasted girl can't show she knows how to fight if no one attacks her.
Another good point. Seems a lot of detractors have a "if I don't see it, it doesn't exist" mindset. If they can only see one trait they assume there's nothing more. The other faction is just more willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, I suppose.
I know, right? I was so pissed when I found out she wasn't one of the main heroines. I would have actually played the VN just to play her route if she had one.
"I don't wear glasses to be appealing, I wear them because my eyes are bad!" 
Looks like I got some s'plainin ta do. I don't dislike Ryuuji as a character, I just hate how the staff ended the show. spoiler[Over the course of the series we see Taiga gradually fall out of love with Kitamura and fall for Ryuuji. That was well done. However the same doesn't go for Ryuuji. If anything his feelings for Minori only got stronger as the two of them got closer. But then we have that scene in the classroom where Taiga tries to run because it's revealed Ryuuji had heard what she said when he saved her on the mountain. And not long after I guess Ryuuji suddenly decided he doesn't love Minori anymore and loves Taiga instead? Hell, Minori yells out that she likes Ryuuji too but all he gives her is a kind smile. Um, okay? Not five minutes ago you liked her. Shouldn't you be a bit conflicted learning she reciprocates and have to decide which girl to choose? No? You're just gonna decide you love Taiga out of nowhere and even go so far as to suggest you elope together? I suppose I should have been clearer earlier. I wasn't trying to say this ruined Taiga's character, it ruined the show itself. Predictableness aside (really would have prefered if Ryuuji got Minori and Taiga got Kitamura like they wanted), the way they pulled it out of their ass really pissed me off. Added to that, why would Ryuuji pick Taiga anyways? Honestly the only thing that comes to mind is it's because Taiga can't live without him taking care of her. Which, come to think of it, is the type of girl you say you don't prefer, errinundra. I think a much better ending would have been if Ryuuji ended up with Minori, forcing Taiga to finally learn to take care of herself for the sake of her two closest friends. That would have made her an even better character to me. ] Ahem, sorry for pulling my own thread off topic but I really hate Toradora's ending. |
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Errinundra
Moderator
Posts: 6525 Location: Melbourne, Oz |
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@Vaisaga,
I like the ending of Toradora! but I see things very differently from you right from early in the series. My view is that Ryuji never loved Minorin. She's an emotional prop to cover his insecurities about his appearance and how others regard him as a delinquent. What's more the two aren't suited to each other - you can see this in the way her observations on life are mostly riddles to him. Their imaginations construct the world in entirely different ways. Were they to hook up their relationship would be largely devoid of meaningul communication. The comedy of Toradora! is that the two protagonists love each other from very early on, are very suited to each other (as Kitamura, Minorin and all the other students realise by the second episode), but are too immature and too insecure to acknowledge. It's much easier to be "in love" and put the object on a pedestal than it is to commit to actually loving someone. By episode 8 (when Ryuji almost drowns) I think it's clear what their true feelings are. When Taiga declares that he belongs to her, he smiles (and not ironically). When, in the very next scene, she reinterprets her declaration his face betrays his disappointment. What's more, after his oblique conversation with Minorin on the seaside, Ryuji never seriously pursues her (Minorin) again. Indeed, he constantly resists any such prodding from Taiga. The protagonists have created a wall. The rest of the series is about how that wall is torn down, partly through circumstance, partly through the efforts of their friends and largely through the two gaining self-awareness (and, basically, growing up). The wall comes down for Taiga after the Santa Bear scene and finally comes down for Ryuji in the scene you find so problematic. What I find so marvellous about the last two episodes is that we finally get a glimpse of the adult Taiga and Ryuji. They abandon their plans to elope when they see how childish their own mothers are. They also decide, separately and their own ways, to re-establish their relationships with their families. Not only are they demonstrating a previously unseen maturity but it shows their love is a source of personal development, not a crutch to compensate for their emotional inadequacies. |
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getchman
 Space CowboyPosts: 9120 Location: Bedford, NH |
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yeah, that's pretty much how i see it as well
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13226 |
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Well, just goes to show how two people can see the same thing and have completely different interpretations.
Just like characters (see what I did there?)! One person might see just a cut out, and another might see much more! |
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