Forum - View topic
Request for an Additional Moderator


Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> ANN Feedback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Dessa
Baka RangerBaka Ranger


Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 2257

PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 11:06 am Reply with quote
It's one thing to mark "spoilers" of the current events of an anime. It's another when you're discussing further events than where the current series is.

I'll take Fate/Zero as my example, because there are many outside sources being referenced.

In the thread, anything involving the current episode is marked for spoilers, in deference to people who haven't seen it yet (as Crunchyroll is a week behind, and not everyone likes NicoNico's viewer). Some people may find this excessive, but it seems to be the unspoken agreement of those in the thread.

However, due to the nature of Fate/Zero, there are also things that get discussed, which are marked for spoilers, because not only do they spoil the series, but they are things that no one watching the anime would be able to know without outside knowledge/experience. Because, in the thread, we also discuss the Fate/Zero novels (which are not legally available in English), the original Fate/stay night anime (which not everyone can find anymore), and the Fate/stay night VN (which is not legally available in English).

While one could argue the F/sn anime, I see no reason to fault users for not seeking out illegal copies of works that a) are not legally released in English, b) are not anime, and c) can be quite disturbing (why is there no translation of Realta Nua?).

If it is outside of the currently available episodes' content, it should be marked for spoilers. Whether it's content from a related series (like in F/Z's case), content from further in the manga, or even content from the current-in-Japan episodes in a current-in-US thread (I believe there is a "Bleach on [as] thread", or was at one point), should be marked as spoilers. To not do so is just rude, and, IMO, repeatedly doing thus is showing contempt for your fellow users, and should be grounds for being placed on moderated posts.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime
Mad_Scientist



Joined: 08 Apr 2008
Posts: 2320

PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 6:10 pm Reply with quote
GeminiDS85 wrote:
dormcat wrote:
And now you are asking giving out clearances just for being active. Rolling Eyes


While there is always the possibility of a bad egg being selected, I didn’t think it was necessary to clarify that the user be trustworthy because if the higher-ups elected to give that user moderator status, I think it would be safe to assume that the higher-ups trusted said user.


Basically, you're not saying "make someone active a moderator because he's active", but "look at active posters and see if there's someone who seems like he/she might be good mod material."

I think would probably be a good thing, and not just for spoilers. Yah, the report feature is useful, but at the same time I think having mods who are actively involved in the community, mods who are familiar with posters and their habits apart from what they see in the report queue, is a good thing. And a lot of our moderators are, for various reasons mostly unknown to me, not very active in the forums (or certain parts of the forums) anymore.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
Mesonoxian Eve



Joined: 10 Jan 2012
Posts: 1858

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 7:04 am Reply with quote
Dessa wrote:
I'll take Fate/Zero as my example, because there are many outside sources being referenced.

I'm going to apologize ahead of time, because the post you're about to read is going to make me a dick and appear I'm picking on you, but rest assured, that's not the case.

Except for one part: you're making excuses, frankly.

I frequent discussion threads often. I don't post in them because I detest the spoiler tag. I feel my speech is protecting those who just want to have their cake and eat it too.

In my experience, I've learned that it's nearly impossible for users not to spoil themselves because, in many cases, it's not easy for people to distinguish what episode the discussion's relating because people don't put this stuff down.

Here's an example, taken directly from Mysterious Girlfriend X:
Quote:
The spoiler[buckets of drool she spit up at the end was a bit much. I wasn't sure whether I was supposed to barf or laugh or maybe barfoutloud?]


I'll give you a box of donuts if you can tell me what episode this spoiler tag is discussing.

Can't do it, can you. In fact, as the pages continue, it gets even more difficult. This next example is taken from page 7 of the discussion thread:
Quote:
Well, after seeing Oka comment that Urabe has spoiler["cute armpits" I think we have to re-evaluate whether her interest in the Drool Queen is strictly platonic...]


Again, please name the episode in question.

Therein lies my issue with spoiler tags. Even if I tried my best to avoid actual episodic spoilers, I'll not know what episode is being spoiled until I read the spoiler.

In other words: the entire tag is pointless because it doesn't prevent spoiling at all.

The benefit is to those who are actively engaging in the thread, and you can bet this is only a few rather than the majority who access the thread after they've finally had a chance to see it.

Most people will actively join the discussions after they've finally seen the series or are "caught up" and wish to discuss it, leaving to the precedence of the internet which has an unwritten rule people rarely read an entire thread before posting (another unwritten rule is a vast majority will rarely go beyond 3 pages of history).

This means a person like me will be "lost" anyway, and you can bet if there are discussions on several different episodes, without an episode guide to let us know, we're just as likely to be spoiled regardless (as the examples above clearly show).

I don't wish to make your position trivial, as I'm well aware some people really don't want to know what's going to happen, but reality states the only way to be 100% in this area is to completely remove yourself from the discussion until you've seen it.

I also need to let you know I'm also one who doesn't believe a spoiler ruins the series. I've know for months what happens in episode 3 of PMMM and when I finally saw it, I didn't once think "Yep, this was ruined so I got nothing out of it."

That blame goes to the hype. Razz

I want to ensure this post isn't about the spoiler tag issue, but moreso to the realization people are expecting moderators to clean up this unnecessary attribute, rather than... moderate.

I can understand why moderators aren't frequenting threads. They're too busy placating the few users who feel a spoiler tag is "necessary" in a discussion thread of the series.

That bugs me, but a reminder this is just my opinion.

The "rules" are there. I just choose to do without rather than abide by them to placate a few people I find are too sensitive to the spoiler issue.

See. Dick. Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dessa
Baka RangerBaka Ranger


Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 2257

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 10:48 am Reply with quote
As I had never even heard<í> of that show before reading this thread, I obviously cannot take your "challenge".

While I agree with you that there is no need to spoiler events from the newest<í> episode of an anime, in that anime's discussion thread, spoilers of events that have not occurred<í> are completely different. Your Madoka argument is irrelevant, because you were reading a discussion of <iěpisodes<í> past where you had seen. The case of what OP is talking about, and why I used FateŹero as an example, are things that are not in the anime.

In Fate/Zero, there are 7 Masters and 7 Servants. People watching the show know that, by the newest episode (currently streaming on Niconico, will be on Crunchyroll on Saturday), know that of the 14, (spoilered because this is not the F/Z thread) spoiler[Kiritsugu, Kotomine, Waver, and Kariya, and Saber, Archer, Rider, and Berserker] are still alive. I would agree with you, that discussion pertaining to those characters being alive should not be marked as spoilers (in the thread).

However, there are people who have a) seen the Fate/stay night anime, b) played the Fate/stay night Visual Novel, c) read the Fate/Zero novels, or d) read the Type-Moon wiki (I'm personally in groups A, B, and D... I never expected F/Z to be made into an anime, and wanted to know what led up to F/sn).

The people in groups A and B know that spoiler[Kiritsugu and Kotomine, and Saber and Archer survive, but that Kiritsugu dies in the next 10 years.] The people in group C know the above, and that spoiler[Waver also survives]. (The people in group D may or may not know everything.) The people in groups C and D also know the identity of spoiler[Berserker], which has not been revealed yet.

As the thread for Fate/Zero is discussing the anime of Fate/Zero, there is no reason that anyone who has not either previously seen/played/read F/sn or the F/Z novels should know these things, nor should they be spoiled by unmarked spoilers. The discussion is for the anime. If people want to enhance their discussion with additional information outside of the anime, that's their prerogative, but they have no right to enforce it on people who want to enjoy the anime as it's coming out. Spoilers need to be in place.

The only time I purposefully avoided discussing the "newest" episode of F/Z, was because it hadn't even aired in Japan yet, and I believe I was the only one who saw either the theatrical preview of episode 15, or the Sakura-Con premiere. Had others seen it, I would have discussed it, using spoiler tags, since there was no way out of those two events that people could have seen it (the theatrical preview in Japan was of episodes 14-15, the day before 14 aired, and the Sakura-Con premiere was 13-15, roughly 5 hours after 14 aired in Japan).

Now, thinking on your "challenge"... Grab me any spoilers from F/Z season 2 (I marathoned season 1, so everything tends to blend together), and I could ID you the episode via the spoilers. To prove it's not due to recent viewing, if we had a Kaizoku Sentai Gokaiger thread, I'd be able to ID anything out of any episode of that, too (plot-wise, not Gokai Changes, those were in too many episodes).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime
Keonyn
Moderator


Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 5555
Location: Coon Rapids, MN

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 11:56 am Reply with quote
Mad_Scientist wrote:
Basically, you're not saying "make someone active a moderator because he's active", but "look at active posters and see if there's someone who seems like he/she might be good mod material."

I think would probably be a good thing, and not just for spoilers. Yah, the report feature is useful, but at the same time I think having mods who are actively involved in the community, mods who are familiar with posters and their habits apart from what they see in the report queue, is a good thing. And a lot of our moderators are, for various reasons mostly unknown to me, not very active in the forums (or certain parts of the forums) anymore.


Actually, many of the mods are quite active. You need only look at the bottom of the screen in the index to see whether mods are present. Just because we don't post in a topic doesn't mean we aren't reading the topic. Like other posters we post if we have something to add, we don't just post to say "oh hey, look at me". Not to mention, moderating someone who is too active or too involved in the community can sometimes open up a whole different can of worms, and so caution is necessary as well. Activity and involvement does not necessarily mean that person would make a good mod, and in some cases it can mean the exact opposite.

The forum is a big place with a lot of active users and a lot of active threads and posts. Just like adding a few more patrol cars might help catch problems a little more often, the vast majority of arrests (90% or more) are the result of people calling 911. Nothing is more efficient than problems being reported, because even 20 active mods at any one time are only going to see so much on their own.

Even with spoilers this is the case since we can't actually act until the spoilers are posted, and even if we doubled the mod staff it would still take longer for a mod to eventually find the spoiler than it would if a user spotted it and simply reported it so the mod was informed immediately and directly. Not to mention, I don't always see a spoiler where someone else sees one, so I may just read past it without a thought until someone reports it as a spoiler. Like it or not, some of the reasons spoilers filter through is because people have different criteria of what qualifies as a spoiler or not, and I may not know someone will have an issue with something until it's pointed out.

The major problem right now isn't a lack of staff, but a lack of users reporting issues. Heck, just today I came across a recommendation thread that had two users post in the thread that such threads were not allowed, but not one single user bothered to actually report it. I just don't see staffing levels as being the major issue with responsiveness. Everytime I come on there is often at least one other mod or admin on as well.

Of course, the part I find most ironic is so often ANN's forums are accused of being grossly over-moderated.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website My Anime My Manga
Blood-
SubscriberSubscriber


Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 14340
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 1:33 pm Reply with quote
@ ME - you're still missing the point re: posters who insist on discussing THE MANGA that an anime is adapted from. In that case, you may be totally caught up on the most current episode, go to the relevant discussion thread and some dong will write, "ho ho ho, just wait there is a huge tone shift coming in a few episodes if the anime follows the source material." That's the kind of stuff that drives me nuts.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
Mad_Scientist



Joined: 08 Apr 2008
Posts: 2320

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 1:36 pm Reply with quote
Keonyn wrote:
Mad_Scientist wrote:
Basically, you're not saying "make someone active a moderator because he's active", but "look at active posters and see if there's someone who seems like he/she might be good mod material."

I think would probably be a good thing, and not just for spoilers. Yah, the report feature is useful, but at the same time I think having mods who are actively involved in the community, mods who are familiar with posters and their habits apart from what they see in the report queue, is a good thing. And a lot of our moderators are, for various reasons mostly unknown to me, not very active in the forums (or certain parts of the forums) anymore.


Actually, many of the mods are quite active. You need only look at the bottom of the screen in the index to see whether mods are present. Just because we don't post in a topic doesn't mean we aren't reading the topic. Like other posters we post if we have something to add, we don't just post to say "oh hey, look at me".


Well, perhaps "a lot" was going too far. But Tony K did say in this thread that he hardly keeps up with anything on the forums anymore, and Dormcat followed that with the fact that he himself hasn't followed any new anime for over a year. (So I figured he's probably not as active in threads dedicated to new anime, which is what inspired this thread in the first place.) Also, I haven't seen Abunai much lately, and I'm including seeing his name on the bottom of the screen.

Of course, if I don't happen to be on at the same time he is and look at the bottom of the page at the right time, I'd never notice even if he was on, so perhaps he (and some other mods I haven't seen as much lately) are more active than I've realized. Also, I have no way of really knowing what sections of the forums they are reading if they are on.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
Keonyn
Moderator


Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 5555
Location: Coon Rapids, MN

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 2:33 pm Reply with quote
And yet the report list is always cleared and reports dealt with within a pretty short time of their posting. So if the forum is really as undermoderated as claimed, why are there no pending reports? Again, this demonstrates that cases not being reported is the problem and is far more detrimental than the supposed lack of moderator staff.

And I have to say, I see Tony taking action in plenty of cases on a regular basis so he's still doing plenty out there. Zalis is out there as well, and so is key, and we've got the admin staff who also can perform moderator functions. As a mod I see no sign that we are lacking in any way as a result of staffing. The biggest problems I still see are a lack of reports and people who insist on feeding trolls and engaging in arguments rather than reporting issues and simply letting us do our jobs. The problem when people do that is that we then have to clean up and cut apart half the thread instead of just the one offending post, and sometimes that can't even be done without rending the discussion incomprehensible. If anything these need to be resolve before we just throw more bodies at it and expect that to have any real impact.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website My Anime My Manga
Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 6829
Location: Snake Mountain Cocktail Lounge

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 2:47 pm Reply with quote
It sounds to me like we just need a rule about the discussion thread for an anime based on a manga. Only discussion of the manga up to where the anime has gotten will be accepted. Any teasing or hinting at what happens later will not be tolerated, offending posts will be removed, and if people can't follow that then they'll get kicked out for a bit.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime
dragon695



Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Posts: 1103
Location: Clemson, SC

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 3:13 pm Reply with quote
Keonyn wrote:
Not to mention, moderating someone who is too active or too involved in the community can sometimes open up a whole different can of worms, and so caution is necessary as well.

Speaking of which, shouldn't dtm42 be getting out of the penalty box pretty soon? I wouldn't want him to miss the third P.M.M.M. review and discussion. Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Blood-
SubscriberSubscriber


Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 14340
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 3:32 pm Reply with quote
dragon695 wrote:
Keonyn wrote:
Not to mention, moderating someone who is too active or too involved in the community can sometimes open up a whole different can of worms, and so caution is necessary as well.

Speaking of which, shouldn't dtm42 be getting out of the penalty box pretty soon? I wouldn't want him to miss the third P.M.M.M. review and discussion. Very Happy


Whereas I'm advocating that his ban be made permanent. While on the one hand I appreciate ANN's forgiveness policy, here is a poster who has been banned three times (that I know of) and been post-moderated for a lengthy period once (that I know of). At what point does it become clear that a particular poster, for whatever reason, is either incapable or unwilling to abide by the ANN code of conduct and therefore eligible for a permanent ban? Given dtm42's posting history, does anyone really believe he is capable of changing? What's the point of letting him back in so that he can continue his ways and be banned for a fourth time (that I know of)?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
Nosferatu21



Joined: 19 Jul 2010
Posts: 520
Location: Ohio

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 8:11 pm Reply with quote
Yeah I also wouldn't mind seeing dtm42's ban become permanent but that's not the point of this thread so I'll stop my opinion on that now.

Zac wrote:
It sounds to me like we just need a rule about the discussion thread for an anime based on a manga. Only discussion of the manga up to where the anime has gotten will be accepted. Any teasing or hinting at what happens later will not be tolerated, offending posts will be removed, and if people can't follow that then they'll get kicked out for a bit.


This would be absolutely amazing. I share Blood-'s viewpoint that even somebody mentioning something like a "tonal shift" that could come up soon is a series spoiler for me and something that should be in tags, or better yet, not in the thread at all. A similar discussion on this topic is currently going in the Dusk Maiden of Amnesia thread. I'll reiterate what I said in that thread.

When someone starts reading a manga as it begins, they know nothing of what will happen. They read it as each chapter comes out and are delighted or disappointed with the plot as it unfolds. There is nobody there to spoil them because no one yet knows what will happen.

When I watch anime, I want to have the samy joy. I like to watch shows with the least amount of information about them as possible. I usually don't watch OPs or EDs cause they can be spoilerish and show characters who haven't appeared in the show. I also stay away from next episode previews for the same reasons. I love sitting down to watch a show and not already knowing what to expect. It's why I use how much I like the show as a determinant for buying the manga. However, I think it's becoming more common for people who have read the source material to discuss things in the anime thread that haven't happened yet. I haven't gone to the Mysterious Girlfriend X thread in close to a month because of this. I generally stay away from most currently airing show discussion threads because I don't want to be spoiled.

Keonyn is absolutely correct when he mentioned that what may be a spoiler to some is not viewed as a spoiler to others. I have an extremely low tolerance for spoilers. It would be selfish of me to expect every single user who posts to adhere to my own standards for spoilers. So I stay out of threads to keep myself sane and let other posters still do their thing. BUT, if there was a rule prohibiting them from mentioning things that happen in the source material but haven't happened yet in the manga, I could easily participate more. I have no problem at all with someone mentioning something that happened differently in the source material if we're already past that point in the anime. I also don't have a problem in the situation that someone asks something like "does anyone whose read the manga know if situation x happens differently in the manga than what we saw?" I've asked things like that before and I don't mind when others do as long as a person's reply is in spoiler tags.

Now would an additional moderator or moderators make a difference in keeping spoilers out of threads? Tough to say. I think the mods/admin here do a great job. I tried to go to the threads on Mania once. Yep, once. I'm not sure an additional mod would help what some see as a problem since they've already given evidence in this thread that they take care of as many problems as they can. I haven't used the report feature before but it's something I'll be doing in the future.

Now, I wouldn't mind seeing a mod or two hang around the Talkback thread more. I'm not sure that place is even capable of hosting life anymore. Laughing But it moves so fast with so many news stories and posts that it has to be close to impossible for any number of mods to sift through it all. That's a place where the report feature has to be utilized by the posters more.

Who would we even nominate as mods? If you've been around long enough to get the attention(positively) of the admins who could make you a mod, that probably also means you've got a few people who would be opposed to you having any mod power. Is there any poster we seriously think is level headed enough to not abuse their powers, not take "mod attacks" personally, yet also assertive enough to force their way into an argument and get it stopped? This person(s) would also have to have the time to put in to being a mod. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings here, but I don't exactly have a list of names coming to mind.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 6829
Location: Snake Mountain Cocktail Lounge

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 8:35 pm Reply with quote
How would you guys feel about a system where we have two threads for popular shows based on manga? So one is for newbies, and one is for veterans who want to talk about how they think the show will go based on having read so much of the manga.

Or should we just tell people who want to talk about the manga to take it to the manga forum?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime
Blood-
SubscriberSubscriber


Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 14340
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 9:05 pm Reply with quote
Personally, I'd be in favour of a rule that stipulates any manga discussion be kept to the manga forum. Yeah, that still leaves Light Novels, VN and games as potential spoiler items, but keeping manga in the manga pen would probably immediately clear up 80 per cent of these problems.

I think the two thread thing would be too difficult to manage and would create a lot of confusion among posters.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
Veers



Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Posts: 1183
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 10:43 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
Or should we just tell people who want to talk about the manga to take it to the manga forum?

I think this makes more sense than the other proposal.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> ANN Feedback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group