×
  • remind me tomorrow
  • remind me next week
  • never remind me
Subscribe to the ANN Newsletter • Wake up every Sunday to a curated list of ANN's most interesting posts of the week. read more

Forum - View topic
NEWS: Tokyo's Youth Healthy Development Council Looks at Yosuga no Sora


Goto page Previous    Next

Note: this is the discussion thread for this article

Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
TitanXL



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 4036
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:17 pm Reply with quote
That was more my point. Homosexuality and incest are both things looked down upon due to being 'abnormal' sexual ideals. So the old 'slippery slope' argument is met with an 'And? Would that be wrong?' After all, if we're for sexual freedom and personal choice and all, then both should be okay. I have no problem with either.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dandelion_rose



Joined: 12 May 2012
Posts: 657
Location: Kuala Lumpur
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:20 pm Reply with quote
Let me just say this --

As someone who comes from a community where incest is a real and serious problem, the dynamics of incest is nothing like some 'Call me Onii-chan' hotness.

The dynamics of incest is much closer to RAPE.

One of the parties is usually so emotionally dependent / trapped by the other that even abuse is tolerated or accepted. And even in the odd case where you have 'mutual consent', the psychological makeup of the people involved become really screwed up, making the relationship way abnormal in its dynamics.

This is totally, totally different from homosexuality, where a lot of the suffering is caused by censure, self-hate / shame, and social oppression.

Grrr. Argh. I can't believe this even needed *saying*.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dandelion_rose



Joined: 12 May 2012
Posts: 657
Location: Kuala Lumpur
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:23 pm Reply with quote
TitanXL wrote:
That was more my point. Homosexuality and incest are both things looked down upon due to being 'abnormal' sexual ideals. So the old 'slippery slope' argument is met with an 'And? Would that be wrong?' After all, if we're for sexual freedom and personal choice and all, then both should be okay. I have no problem with either.


You just sit and [expletive] theorize there, TitanXL.

I work and hang around with both activists for LGBT issues and violence against women.

Incest and homosexuality are not the same. I don't get this education from anime. I get this education from life.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Xanas



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 2058
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:24 pm Reply with quote
dandelion_rose wrote:

a place where incest is a SERIOUS ISSUE, I declare anyone saying anything along these lines as sheer TALKING OUT OF THEIR ASS.

When you say this though what kind of relationships are you talking about? Most incest is one-sided a lot of it is rape and I don't think he would agree with that either. If you're just referring to defects, you could always have "homosexual incest" and then that's a non-issue.

It really depends on the kind you are talking about and what activities specifically you are referring to, so I don't know if you can make a blanket statement.

Also, from what I've read on defects thus far on a single-generational basis it's not really a huge increase in risk of problems. It's also not as though any other group of people has a right to dictate to everyone that they have to care about those problems more than their own happiness.

But don't get me wrong, I'm ok with their being a social stigma attached to it, and I'm 100% fine with people refusing to associate with those who are involved in incestuous activity. I just don't think there should be laws against it or laws where the state decides what is and isn't proper material for viewing.

Quote:

I don't get this education from anime. I get this education from life.

If you just share statements like this and don't give people information you are really losing people who are on the fence.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime
dandelion_rose



Joined: 12 May 2012
Posts: 657
Location: Kuala Lumpur
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:35 pm Reply with quote
Short of actually disclosing personal information of people I have no right to do so? What do you suggest, Xanas? If you want survivor stories, there are plenty.

You don't want people policing what you want to view? Fine. But PLEASE separate your porn and your reality.

I can watch or read rape in hentai just fine. I know it upsets some people, and if it does I'm not going to shove it to them. That doesn't mean that I think the portrayal of rape in most porn reflects reality. I can enjoy my porn and I can act in ways that recognize the seriousness of RL rape.

Just. Argh. Defend the imoto thing if you want, but good grief, don't contribute to rape culture.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TitanXL



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 4036
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:01 pm Reply with quote
Isn't that like condemning homosexuality by stereotyping most homosexuality is about older men molesting little boys? What about cases of consentual incest? Kissing cousins and all that.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mad_Scientist
Subscriber
Moderator


Joined: 08 Apr 2008
Posts: 3011
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:47 pm Reply with quote
Surrender Artist wrote:


That said, I'm not sure if homosexuality and incest can be treated as equivalent. Homosexuality not just about sexual conduct, but is tied to an identity, and thus a discrete group that is vulnerable to mistreatment and abuse. I'm doubt strongly, but not absolutely, that incest has those qualities. I am nominally receptive to legalizing incest as a matter of principle, but skeptical, hesitant to approach the question and don't see it as an especially urgent.


This is similar to how I feel, though I think I'm a bit more receptive to legalizing incest (though apparently it is already legal in Rhode Island, and legal with certain restrictions in other states) than you. It's just not high on my list of political causes I want to champion, considering how many other things about US politics and laws I feel need to change and which I feel are more urgent.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
dandelion_rose



Joined: 12 May 2012
Posts: 657
Location: Kuala Lumpur
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:20 pm Reply with quote
I don’t even know why I do this --

TitanXL wrote:
Isn't that like condemning homosexuality by stereotyping most homosexuality is about older men molesting little boys?


No, because a vast majority of people within the LGBTQIA (you’ll notice I use the longer term, and this is for a reason) umbrella are not abusers, and are often prone to being abused themselves. On the other hand, by far and large incestuous relationships are abusive.

Quote:
What about cases of consentual incest? Kissing cousins and all that.


Because the kind of incestuous relationship that you wish to armchair-theory legitimize here isn’t the kind of “Well, I’m gonna marry my Uncle John’s sister-in-law’s son, Mickey.” I myself come from a pretty small ethnic group where it is impossible to marry someone of the same ethnicity who isn’t somehow related, so I recognize that the ‘incest’ line when it comes to distant relatives can be a moveable border.

The kind of relationship you, and a number of other fanboys here are trying to legitimize, is the kind of oniichan-imoto kinky set-up in anime, manga and bishoujo games, under the grounds that “If you’re liberal enough to be pro-gay you must be liberal enough to be pro-incest.” This is utter bullshit, and while I recognize that it can be pretty darn hopeless to get through to some of you, I just feel the need to throw this out: this is utter bullshit.

So I’m going to quote myself one more time:

dandelion_rose wrote:
The dynamics of incest is much closer to RAPE. One of the parties is usually so emotionally dependent / trapped by the other that even abuse is tolerated or accepted. And even in the odd case where you have 'mutual consent', the psychological makeup of the people involved become really screwed up, making the relationship way abnormal in its dynamics.


I can’t go into the details of that without disclosing personal stories of survivors, and a significant number of them are stuff I’d read, but didn’t file away (why? Because obviously I thought that I wouldn’t need to actually cart it out, and having to cart it out makes me lose my faith in humanity a little). But I come from a community where incest is common. Sometimes it is fathers [expletive] their daughters, sometimes grandfathers. And sometimes brothers. The high level of psychological fudge-up it leaves is as terrible as rape, even in situations where you can think that it is ‘consensual’.

There’s another thing that needs saying here, and that’s the conflation with incest and the LGBTQIA movement. I’ve seen a few people who know better conflate this, and it’s really disappointing, and makes me wonder how many people who say they’re okay with homosexuality actually realize how much suffering LGBTQIAs go through (especially in certain parts of the world) and why they – we – are standing up for their rights, to the point that for some of us it can mean risking their lives.

The LGBTQIA movement is pretty inclusive in spirit. There are obvious differences in the way orientation affects experiences; I’m bisexual and I can’t empathize with gays and their love-hate relationship with the ‘gay ghetto’, and I don’t face the threats to life and liberty that often face a transgendered woman. Despite that, there is still plenty of inclusion, as evidenced by the longer term ‘LGBTQIA’, which includes both intersexed and people who simply identify as ‘queer’.

There’s a reason incest is never included in the LGBTQIA movement, and it isn’t just because it de-legitimizes the movement (which it does). It’s not not in the list of alphabets just because it is ‘taboo’. It’s not in the list of alphabets because it is extremely harmful.

And if I have to further explain the reasons why to you, then the only thing that I can say is that you need switch off the computer, stop watching anime, get out of the house, and volunteer to work with activists of both LGBTQIA awareness and women’s rights organizations. (Just urgh, stop being such a creep.) I’m all for enjoying hobbies, but not when the hobby skews a person’s reality this far.

(Why does anime fandom make me want to slam my head on the table repeatedly so many times?)

Edit for my own fails.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Polycell



Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Posts: 4623
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:38 am Reply with quote
dandelion_rose, I think what you're missing is that the 'consenting adults' argument proves too much - if consenting adults should be allowed to do what they want, what's it matter if it's one man and one woman or thirty brothers? TitanXL and Xanas's posts aren't signs of too much anime, but simply logically consistent - both take the argument to its extreme and accept its implications. That aside, your posts heavily imply that genuine consent is lacking in most of the cases of incest you're familiar with(which I doubt anybody would disagree is a bad thing), so they're hardly covered by the argument.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dandelion_rose



Joined: 12 May 2012
Posts: 657
Location: Kuala Lumpur
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:49 am Reply with quote
Yeah, but TitanXL's posting history (don't know too much about Xanas) doesn't lend me to believe that this is some kind of philosophy discussion where we examine axioms for the sake of it.

Even if it were, moral principles and judgments are not determined by single axioms. In the case of LGBT and why it is not incest, the criminalization and censure of LGBT leads to demonstrable harm. On the other hand, the censure of incest is meant to protect the vulnerable from harm.

Edit: on the subject of box turtles, bestiality is another thing that has demonstrable harm. I have no objection to people who want to marry boxes, though.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jl07045



Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Posts: 1527
Location: Riga, Latvia
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:01 am Reply with quote
I'd also be against legitimizing incest too much. dandelion_rose probably already said that, but the majority of incest cases are abusive and iniated by the older partner without the consent or full understanding of the issue by the younger one. Consensual relationship happens almost only when two separated siblings meet. The difference in proportions between abusive and consensual relationships is so large that making incest more acceptable would bring more harm than good.

Considering the original issue, since I'm drawn to controversial things and incest doesn't weird me out too much, I've actually seen Yosuga no Sora. My personal opinion is that it got through because the relationship was shown in a relatively serious way, their thoughts were explored, so were the reactions of the people around them to a point. It did not trivialize a controversial issue which I think is what they're going after. Contrast this with Aki Sora where they've lived together all the time and when the puberty kicks in, they just can't not fall in love. Besides the kid is fudging a new girl every other chapter.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dandelion_rose



Joined: 12 May 2012
Posts: 657
Location: Kuala Lumpur
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:33 am Reply with quote
jl07045 wrote:
Contrast this with Aki Sora where they've lived together all the time and when the puberty kicks in, they just can't not fall in love. Besides the kid is fudging a new girl every other chapter.


Have to admit I rather like Aki Sora, though it kind of lost me when the flasher girl came into the picture.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
誤称



Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 549
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:58 am Reply with quote
RyanSaotome wrote:


That reminds me, I can't think of any dedicated sister incest manga/anime. This is a niche that needs to be filled


Candy Boy is THE sister twincest anime.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5088
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:16 am Reply with quote
誤称 wrote:


Candy Boy is THE sister twincest anime.


How could I forget Candy Boy!?

Also, Myself;Yourself has het twincest among two secondary characters.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
誤称



Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 549
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:42 am Reply with quote
Soundmonkey44 wrote:
Fencedude5609 wrote:
Soundmonkey44 wrote:


Thats a completely different thing!


Oh really? Why?


Quote:
And at least Utena wasn't using it to pander to the LCD or glorifying it like some modern series are.


Ikuhara, not pandering? Please.


I can already see where this is going, so I'm not going to fall for your flaimbait, I know how this work, I write some long contrived post about how its different then you deconstruct it just to further point out how wrong I am and how its not really different at all. So yeah...not gonna fall for it.

But yeah, if you really don't think theres a difference between Revolutionary Girl Utena & Yosuga No Sora, thats your problem, not mine.


Utena was totally Yosuga no Sora for girls. Seriously, Touga and Anthy's brother were manservice and little more. Sure the story tried to be deep, but it certainly would not be the "masterpiece" that the herd tries to make it out to be.

It pandered all over the place, to deny it is to deny reality. Ikuhara is damn good at marketing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous    Next
Page 14 of 16

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group