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NEWS: Tokyo's Youth Healthy Development Council Looks at Yosuga no Sora


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penguintruth



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 8458
Location: Penguinopolis
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:00 pm Reply with quote
So what if there's incest? With the birth rate as it is in Japan, they can't afford to be picky. Laughing
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Soundmonkey44



Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 1243
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:34 pm Reply with quote
You know, thinking about it, I'm a big enough man to admit i've been a bit of an a$$hat in this discussion, but honestly, so have most people involved. Again, I shouldn't have posted in this particular discussion in the first place, that was completely my bad. Still don't think I've been wrong since like anyone else I've merely been posting my opinion. But hey, I get it, some people like this stuff, i don't to each their own.


If it makes anyone here feel better, I promise not to bother the rest of you in these types of discussions anymore. I'll just stick to the more light hearted conversations. Laughing

Of course if you still don't trust me i'd also be fine with getting banned.
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Banden



Joined: 24 Sep 2010
Posts: 140
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:12 pm Reply with quote
Soundmonkey44 wrote:
You know, thinking about it, I'm a big enough man to admit i've been a bit of an a$$hat in this discussion, but honestly, so have most people involved. Again, I shouldn't have posted in this particular discussion in the first place, that was completely my bad. Still don't think I've been wrong since like anyone else I've merely been posting my opinion. But hey, I get it, some people like this stuff, i don't to each their own.


And now I have to keep my word and give you credit where credit is due for saying something intelligent. Who knew?

I don't think anyone has a problem with you not liking incest, molestation, rape, or whatever other things you mentioned before. I certainly don't. You should watch what you like, and you're entitled to your own opinion of what you watch. Having no preferences and no opinions is apathy, and America is already dangerously apathetic about the future of anime here. You can write 10,000 words about how much Yosuga no Sora grosses you out and how much you hate it. That doesn't bother me in the least, and I guess at least its good you are exposing yourself to current trends in the medium.

When I start to have a problem is when a person says something like "We need to get the 'XYZ' out of anime." Or more to the point for this discussion topic: "The council should have banned Yosuga no Sora," because that goes beyond your right to watch or not watch, and love or hate whatever you like, and intrudes into my right to do the same things. You have certain tastes and tolerances, and so do I, and so does everyone else who visits this site. And there is a larger quantity, and greater variety of anime coming out of Japan right now than ever in the history of the artform. Why Western fans of all people squabble so much about the kinds of content anime depicts is a baffling to me.

Live and let live, it's not a big deal really.
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Soundmonkey44



Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 1243
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:17 pm Reply with quote
@Banden: Thanks....I guess. Laughing
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Xanas



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 2058
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:55 pm Reply with quote
dandelion_rose wrote:
(don't know too much about Xanas) ...

Even if it were, moral principles and judgments are not determined by single axioms.

Well, PolyCell can generally speak for me well enough because our views are pretty similar on most things.

I am one of the "on the fence" people I was speaking of earlier. I don't like the idea of incest generally, I recognize what you say about it being generally unequal relationships, and I even buy that it's probably destructive in 90%+ of cases where there is some level of consent.

What I'm not sure of is whether that is in large part because of the social stigma, but I know that stigma exists for "real" reasons related to child psychology. I've read enough on the issue to know that children that grow up together at young ages don't tend to "get involved" and this isn't exclusive to families either, it's a tendency if I recall even among orphanages and such.

As I stated earlier I'm 100% fine with the stigma whatever the reasons for it. I believe in the right of association and the corollary to that is that you have the right not to associate or to disassociate if there is a problem you have, whether others consider that legitimate or not.

As for morality and "single axioms" I'm not sure precisely what you mean by that. In society I advocate the NAP (non-aggression principle) but I do think morality goes beyond that. I just don't think most morality should be forced via violence or threats.
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dandelion_rose



Joined: 12 May 2012
Posts: 657
Location: Kuala Lumpur
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:40 pm Reply with quote
Xanas wrote:
As for morality and "single axioms" I'm not sure precisely what you mean by that. In society I advocate the NAP (non-aggression principle) but I do think morality goes beyond that. I just don't think most morality should be forced via violence or threats.


I'm not a philosophy major, so I might be getting some of my definitions wrong.

An axiom is a statement that is considered as a premise regarded as true and then functions as the premise on which other statements are evaluated. For example, "Sex between consensual adults should be permissible regardless of its nature" is an axiom. "Freedom of speech is an absolute right" is an axiom, too. "Governments have a duty to protect the people" is another.

My point is that real life decisions drawn on ethics and morality cannot and in any case often does not function on one axiom alone. Other matters fall into consideration. For example, "As long as consent is given, all activity should be permissible" is a fine enough principle to function, but there are situations where even the most liberal 'progressive' person will find that they might be uncomfortable with it.

For example, let's say that Religion A requires its adherents to undertake cruel and unusual punishments and practices. The adherent consents to it. How much liberty will you provide the adherent?

Some examples:
1. The Kaihogyo monks of Mt. Hiei, who undergo an extreme asceticism of running, some to the point of death;
2. The pillar saints in Roman Catholicism and Eastern Christianity;
3. A Malaysian woman named Nur Katika, who consented to be flogged as punishment for imbibing alcohol;
4. A man in Israel who consented to be flogged for...another offense I can't remember. I'll have to look to find out, and it may take a while to hunt.

In situations [3] and [4] the consent given also involves giving greater authority, ie. state power to a particular religious group. In situations [1] and [2], the questions that may arise would something be like: should some religious practices be regarded as suicide?

As you can see, ethical decisions make use of more than one axiom and some premises will have to be overruled by the other. (I think I might be misusing the term 'axiom' though...I suspect that axioms are premises upon which one defines what is true...but anyway, I'm digressing).

On the subject of incest, the main reason why I flew off my handle is because, as I mentioned, I live in a community where incest is a real problem. Anyway, since I've calmed down significantly since I flew off my handle, you can take a look at the Google results for 'Incest in Malaysia'. Malaysia has a really high number of incest cases.

In any case, as can be observed in the thread, most people are instinctively against incest, but nominally for it if it means mutual consent. Aside from the fact that I think the situation is pretty farfetched, 'permissible as long as consent is given' is not the only principle that comes into play when ethical decisions are made.

The other statement you made -- about violence, and about the possibility of using state sanction and violence to police morality, are all other issues linked to, but ultimately separate questions. To what extent should violence be used to determine morality, and to what extent should the state have it?

(And if anyone wants to look at *that* discussion, check out the anarchists on the thread about One Piece ecchi figurines)
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jl07045



Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Posts: 1527
Location: Riga, Latvia
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:04 am Reply with quote
dandelion_rose wrote:
As you can see, ethical decisions make use of more than one axiom and some premises will have to be overruled by the other. (I think I might be misusing the term 'axiom' though...I suspect that axioms are premises upon which one defines what is true...but anyway, I'm digressing).


Axiom is a formal term used in a context of a single argument. For example if you're (hypothetically) arguing against banning incest in manga/anime because you think "freedom of speech is absolute" without questioning that normative statement or expecting your opponent to question it, you're using it as an axiom and building an argument on it. There can be several axioms, but they can't be contradictory otherwise your argument falls apart. The same happens if your opponent questions the axiom (at least until you dispel the criticisms).
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Xanas



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 2058
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:09 am Reply with quote
I get your point even though I agree you aren't using axiom the normal way. And first, let me be clear if I'm talking about "sanction" I'm not talking about "state sanction" but referring to individuals agreeing to sanction. The state uses force and threats to compel citizens to obey all it's laws including it's sanctions. And when it uses sanctions, they are broadly used in a fashion that harms many more people than just the "regime" they are going after. Sanctions can be worse than direct warfare in terms of the "collateral damage."

Of course, even without the state I recognize refusing to trade or associate with people can harm others who aren't the problem. But if the scenario is truly voluntary, they can change their mind and reject the group to make the gains from trade. If it's not voluntary, force might be justified, at the very least to rescue the people who are violently prevented from leaving.

These can all be very complex situations.
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